First look at the All or Nothing Amazon Prime show

[Pookie]

I agree that the players have mostly been the problem the whole time and that Babcock was right about a lot of things but Babcock made a lot of hair pulling stupid decisions here. Not to mention some of his f***** up tactics. Like the Spezza thing WTF was that?

for sure.

and this isn’t a babcock is better or Keefe is better thing.

my thing is Keefe is echoing the same things Babcock had to say about being details and being prepared.

If both coaches are right... the core we have is indeed the issue.

 

[Pookie]

okay… except Matthews never said that.

The only time he really talked to the media he was asked a point blank question if they played a particular game too safe and he responded honestly, that he thought they had. He said nothing whatsoever about the strategy or how Keefe wants them to play.

Keefe massively overreacted to a nothing comment

wonder how Matthews feels after watching

you know he watched... he was in it.

 

[Sypher04]

I think anyone using the “too safe” comment from Matthews, and Keefe’s overreaction to it, as a springboard to paint Matthews’ attitude, should probably keep in mind that over the course of an nhl season, I’d think at least half the players on the team probably say something to the media the coach doesn’t like for some reason or another. I really don’t think anything should be interpreted from it.

 

[Bluelines]

Good communication is knowing how your audience best absorbs information.

Public speaking 101, find the dumbest person in the room and speak to them and then everyone else will understand

 

[Bluelines]

I think anyone using the “too safe” comment from Matthews, and Keefe’s overreaction to it, as a springboard to paint Matthews’ attitude, should probably keep in mind that over the course of an nhl season, I’d think at least half the players on the team probably say something to the media the coach doesn’t like for some reason or another. I really don’t think anything should be interpreted from it.

Matthews could eat baby chickens live on YouTube and if he scores 50 goals a year, I could care less about his attitude. the guy is paid to be a hockey player not a Politician.

 

[Bluelines]

for sure.

and this isn’t a babcock is better or Keefe is better thing.

my thing is Keefe is echoing the same things Babcock had to say about being details and being prepared.

If both coaches are right... the core we have is indeed the issue.

Maybe both coaches are not right. After all they both failed at addressing the "why" we have not advanced past the 1st round question. You could argue that Keefe has not had the right personnel on the team but CBJ with much less talent and Montreal with much less talent were both able to get past us and the 2nd round. Cooper was quoted as saying he changed the way the team played and with almost the same team won the cup. In TB case it was not the core but the "way". Perhaps it's not the core in Toronto but the "way" we are playing?

 

[The Hanging Jowl]

Finally finished all 5 episodes. Some of my takeaways.

Vesey- what a brat! Shitty attitude and didn't seem very personable even when talking to his own family. Glad he's gone.

Matthews - complacent attitude. Needs more maturing if he wants to be a captain someday.

Marner - you can see that he really does care and was very affected by the whole playoff series. Hopefully he grows out of his playoff funk. Wish we saw a little bit more of him in the series.

Rielly- he was barely in it which is a big surprise considering he is always available to the media and always speaks well. Wish we saw more.

Nylander & Tavares - came as advertised.

Spezza - love this guy more and more all the time. Great veteran.

Bogosian- wish we had kept this guy. Seemed like a good guy and tough, stay at home D man. Maybe keep him as the 6D and promote Lilly to Holl's spot. That would've saved us a little over 1M that we could've spent up front. Maybe kept McCann. I understand why he left. That would be tough not seeing your kids all year because of Canada's travel restrictions.

Andersen - don't really care for his overall demeanor. He just doesn't seem like a personable guy and just comes off like he doesn't have that Warrior spirit.

Campbell- how can you not love everything about this guy! Seeing him after game 7 taking it so hard was tough.

Foligno - this is everything you want in a playoff warrior and a leader. Wish we could still have him on the team and healthy.

Thronton - fun and loveable guy but I really thought him agreeing with our young stars and their complacency really showed poor leadership and shows why he was stripped of captaincy in SJ and maybe a glimpse as to why he's never won a cup. Loved the exchange with Ehlers and the ref.

Dubas - don't think we really learned anything new about him. What you see is what you get. We knew he was a good person and cares for his guys. It was cool to see the behind the scenes conversations and i was glad to see the talk between him and Marner and that they have been talking to him about his playoff struggles. Would like to see him be more assertive at times though. The Foligno trade scene I understand why we overpaid and see his point about not losing out on your guy over a 4th but still, that was a big price to pay.

Keefe - obviously the star of the series. Im sure this series has changed a lot of people views of him and see the players as being the problem. I kinda knew he was demanding coach from watching the Marlies and seeing some of his post game interviews down there but this doc really showed how he constantly expects perfection and isn't afraid to call anyone on the team out. He is firm but fair and think he is a good fit for this team if our star players buy in and give it their all when the games get tough.


I wish we could have this kind of coverage all the time. As much as I love the coverage on the bench and locker room, I would love to see more of the trade talks and draft table discussions. Hopefully we'll we'll get more in the future and could be good revenue and bring more attention to the NHL.

Was Thornton ever captain in SJ? I thought it was Marleau that lost the C to Pavelski?

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

okay… except Matthews never said that.

The only time he really talked to the media he was asked a point blank question if they played a particular game too safe and he responded honestly, that he thought they had. He said nothing whatsoever about the strategy or how Keefe wants them to play.

Keefe massively overreacted to a nothing comment

Ok I just went back and skimmed through some of the parts. I may have misread/ mixed up the timeline. Matthews said he thought the team played too safe or conservatively and maybe didn't make some of the plays they wanted to. Keefe said they lost because Oilers played too safe and didn't allow us to make plays. He then Talks to Auston and they discuss what they're doing right or wrong to which they agreed on and Auston just says we might be overthinking things at the end of it.

A few minutes later Keefe talks to Spezza about the overall attitude of the room and he feels the team isn't happy with him pushing them even when things are going well. He then says "particularly the young guys" and Spezza says his read is good on it. During the leadership meeting when discussing their road trip struggles Thornton comes off as a bit dismissive saying that we are playing well and we are in 1st place for a reason.

 

[acrobaticgoalie]

Was Thornton ever captain in SJ? I thought it was Marleau that lost the C to Pavelski?

Joe Thornton on Sharks GM: 'Doug needs to shut his mouth'

 

[Sypher04]

Ok I just went back and skimmed through some of the parts. I may have misread/ mixed up the timeline. Matthews said he thought the team played too safe or conservatively and maybe didn't make some of the plays they wanted to. Keefe said they lost because Oilers played too safe and didn't allow us to make plays. He then Talks to Auston and they discuss what they're doing right or wrong to which they agreed on and Auston just says we might be overthinking things at the end of it.

A few minutes later Keefe talks to Spezza about the overall attitude of the room and he feels the team isn't happy with him pushing them even when things are going well. He then says "particularly the young guys" and Spezza says his read is good on it. During the leadership meeting when discussing their road trip struggles Thornton comes off as a bit dismissive saying that we are playing well and we are in 1st place for a reason.

that all lines up now for me. I don’t think some frustration about Keefe’s message is going to be particularly uncommon when winning games. We’ve been told forever it’s easier for coaches to drill down on improving play when the team isn’t winning. I think that’s a bit just human nature. That isn’t to say guys couldn’t also be more receptive as well. I’m sure the nhl season is a real grind that way tbh

 

[Pookie]

Maybe both coaches are not right. After all they both failed at addressing the "why" we have not advanced past the 1st round question. You could argue that Keefe has not had the right personnel on the team but CBJ with much less talent and Montreal with much less talent were both able to get past us and the 2nd round. Cooper was quoted as saying he changed the way the team played and with almost the same team won the cup. In TB case it was not the core but the "way". Perhaps it's not the core in Toronto but the "way" we are playing?

It’s possible that both are just spouting euphemisms about “not being ready.”

Or as you suggest, maybe the “way”... this “possession” game really isn’t the way to win playoff hockey games.

Or maybe it is as we don’t have the right people.

Either way... or Tri-either way.... it’s extremely disappointing that we are trying the same thing with the same people and somehow expecting them to achieve something different.

 

[Bluelines]

that all lines up now for me. I don’t think some frustration about Keefe’s message is going to be particularly uncommon when winning games. We’ve been told forever it’s easier for coaches to drill down on improving play when the team isn’t winning. I think that’s a bit just human nature. That isn’t to say guys couldn’t also be more receptive as well. I’m sure the nhl season is a real grind that way tbh

I agree with the bolded point, which is why there is only one McDavid and one Crosby, the difference for those guys and the rest of the world is they are never happy with last years performance. Look at any sport that has elite generational talents, they all have one common trait, drive/hunger to be better. The Crosby's and McDavid's of this world do push themselves when things are going great, to your point the majority of people don't.

 

[Bluelines]

It’s possible that both are just spouting euphemisms about “not being ready.”

Or as you suggest, maybe the “way”... this “possession” game really isn’t the way to win playoff hockey games.

Or maybe it is as we don’t have the right people.

Either way... or Tri-either way.... it’s extremely disappointing that we are trying the same thing with the same people and somehow expecting them to achieve something different.

Yep, I'm on the "wrong coach" train. I see too many OHL "moves" to support this guy. If I can see how other teams are beating us in the playoffs, dang that's bad, cause I know jack about hockey.

 

[egd27]

It’s possible that both are just spouting euphemisms about “not being ready.”

Or as you suggest, maybe the “way”... this “possession” game really isn’t the way to win playoff hockey games.

Or maybe it is as we don’t have the right people.

Either way... or Tri-either way.... it’s extremely disappointing that we are trying the same thing with the same people and somehow expecting them to achieve something different.

It seems the team may have a bit of a dilemma.

Either we have a coach that can identify issues but doesn't have the experience (or ability) to correct them, or there are players on the team that are unable or unwilling to make the changes that the coach is trying to implement.

Yet the solution seems to be keep changing the support players and hope that somehow fixes things.

 

[Transplanted Caper]

For someone with a lot of experience doing voice over work, Will Arnett did this one *weirdly*.

 

[Notsince67]

He told an assistant to F Off. Never allowed a Assistant to talk in the dressing room. The use of the f words was directed at the players far to much. It was telling when Jumbo basically told him to gear down in the leadership meeting. Far to negative.

The tirades seem to happen far to often. goes to Dubas complaining about Mathews answer to a question then basically never addressed it with Mathews.

Aggression isn't a bad thing for a coach but he must command respect. Pat Burns was a pretty scary and intimidating guy but he was able to model the aggression in a positive way that transferred to the players. Also loved his intensity on the bench

 

[Throw More Waffles]

It's weird that we massively improved defensively the second he left.

Because our entitled players flat out refused to buy into Babcock's strict defensive system. Hard to pad your stats that way. It was flat out open rebellion against his system.

Keefe came in and was more "flexible" with them, which got better results. And now, as we've seen from the docuseries, Keefe is battling with the fact that the team needs a stricter system to succeed in the playoffs, while knowing the team has a history of flat out open rebelling against such systems. That's why he had to go to Spezza and pretty much ask "Are they getting maddy-mads at me?".

With Babcock, the leafs lost in the playoffs as underdogs. With Keefe, the leafs lost in the playoffs against underdogs.

 

[Throw More Waffles]

I don't think 24/5 year olds should be viewed as finished products, certainly when it comes to the mental aspects of the game.

Professional athletes have a very short career. The leafs core are now 6 year grizzled veterans. Take almost any star player, and their best years and most successful years are primarily low-mid 20's. Ovechkin situations are the vast exception, not rule. We should not be holding out hoping our core players are exceptions. We should want them to be rules.

 

[Pookie]

Because our entitled players flat out refused to buy into Babcock's strict defensive system. Hard to pad your stats that way. It was flat out open rebellion against his system.

Keefe came in and was more "flexible" with them, which got better results. And now, as we've seen from the docuseries, Keefe is battling with the fact that the team needs a stricter system to succeed in the playoffs, while knowing the team has a history of flat out open rebelling against such systems. That's why he had to go to Spezza and pretty much ask "Are they getting maddy-mads at me?".

With Babcock, the leafs lost in the playoffs as underdogs. With Keefe, the leafs lost in the playoffs against underdogs.

Is Babcock’s observation here really any different that what we have all seen in the 3 years since?

 

[zeke]

Because our entitled players flat out refused to buy into Babcock's strict defensive system.
.

Lmao.

Babs had no defensive system. A disastrous defensive record.

 

[IPS]

I think it spooks a few of the posters here that management/coaching isn't buying the whole "we just got unlucky and ran into a hot goalie" narrative whatsoever and that there are legitimate deeper issues with the core.

Seems like they didn't buy it against Columbus and they sure as hell aren't buying it against Montreal.

 

[The CyNick]

Is Babcock’s observation here really any different that what we have all seen in the 3 years since?

All of this shows that Shanny is the biggest issue with the organization. And I think Dubas and Keefe are both AWFUL at their jobs. Buy Shanny is far worse.

 

[The CyNick]

Lmao.

Babs had no defensive system. A disastrous defensive record.

With his name on the Cup. Let's see if Keefe's name ever gets there. I'd bet no.

 

[Jimmy Firecracker]

On episode 5 finally and just saw the game 4 win. Time for immense pain. Jfc why am I doing this to myself. f***ing Galchenyuk. Dermott you and your f***ing dipsy-doodle.

 

[saffronleaf]

On episode 5 finally and just saw the game 4 win. Time for immense pain. Jfc why am I doing this to myself. f***ing Galchenyuk. Dermott you and your f***ing dipsy-doodle.

still can't get over those plays by gally and dermott.

oddly though I felt the Amazon series provided some closure.