Toggle sidebar

Speculation: Fire Rob Blake Blow it Up Offseason Thread (update: Robitaille, Blake and Hiller stay)

  • Work is still on-going to rebuild the site styling and features. Please report any issues you may experience so we can look into it. Click Here for Updates
Status
Not open for further replies.
Off topic. But I read that Tmac no longer under consideration dlfor Cbj job due to an agreement not being able to be reached between Cbj and Tmac and Kings. Can the Kings ask for something and if so seems crazy if that the case since they fired him and even worse if Kings are preventing him, I guess if they want the money owed on last year of deal wiped. I could see that, but still
 
  • Wow
Reactions: Surf Nutz
FYI, the Kings hired Rob Vollman years ago, and he's like the Godfather of hockey analytics.

So it might actually not be exaggeration in saying what they have internally differs from what we're seeing. I don't know about the five years behind stuff though, given how analytics hasn't exactly helped the Kings achieve anything, except for first round losses against Edmonton.

I wonder if they have a stat that pointed to Luc that the Kings were "in it." Maybe a category for "if we scored X amount of goals, we would've won the series."
 
  • Like
  • Wow
Reactions: VILARGOD, Omni Owl, Johnny Utah and 3 others
MonkeysUncle said:
Off topic. But I read that Tmac no longer under consideration dlfor Cbj job due to an agreement not being able to be reached between Cbj and Tmac and Kings. Can the Kings ask for something and if so seems crazy if that the case since they fired him and even worse if Kings are preventing him, I guess if they want the money owed on last year of deal wiped. I could see that, but still
Click to expand...
Very likely that it has to do with what the Kings still owe him and that's it. They probably want CLB to either be on the hook for what's left or for Tmac to release the Kings from paying what's left. So, if he wants to take the job, there needs to be an agreement since, technically, he's still under contact by the Kings.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MonkeysUncle
bland said:
ALL analytics are crap, and they are ruining sports.
Click to expand...

They're probably pretty decent, which is why they're ruining sports. Aided in that quest by salary caps.

And Brad Pitt was so cool and handsome when he was GM of the A's anyway, so you gotta Be Like Mike.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Johnny Utah
Kingspiracy said:
www.dailymail.co.uk

'Crossbow killer' Kyle Clifford is CAUGHT in cemetery after manhunt

Kyle Clifford, 26, was seen being bundled into the back of an ambulance in the Hilly Fields area of Enfield, north London, by armed police and paramedics on Wednesday afternoon.
www.dailymail.co.uk www.dailymail.co.uk

This had me confused for a second, thought the cte had got to him.
Click to expand...

the individual words triggered me

Kyle Clifford huge bbc tying crossbow manhunt etc

Ziggy Stardust said:
FYI, the Kings hired Rob Vollman years ago, and he's like the Godfather of hockey analytics.

So it might actually not be exaggeration in saying what they have internally differs from what we're seeing. I don't know about the five years behind stuff though, given how analytics hasn't exactly helped the Kings achieve anything, except for first round losses against Edmonton.

I wonder if they have a stat that pointed to Luc that the Kings were "in it." Maybe a category for "if we scored X amount of goals, we would've won the series."
Click to expand...



Just like with the scouting

I have no doubt the Kings have one of the best analytics staffs around

But that the front office thinks they're smarter than all the great resources they've surrounded themselves with
 
  • Like
Reactions: Omni Owl, tigermask48, DoktorJeep and 1 other person
Raccoon Jesus said:
the individual words triggered me

Kyle Clifford huge bbc tying crossbow manhunt etc





Just like with the scouting

I have no doubt the Kings have one of the best analytics staffs around

But that the front office thinks they're smarter than all the great resources they've surrounded themselves with
Click to expand...
You can always twist something to your point a view and that's what the Kings do. There's a reason why Joel has been on alot teams, all teams think make him into something he's not, he's a bleow average defenseman that would have been perfect in 80s and 90s.
Unfortunately the Kings dont look in the mirror and say boy we need to things better we were off on what we were thinking, instead they look in the mirror and say to themselves, damn I'm looking at Genius
 
  • Like
Reactions: Raccoon Jesus
bland said:
ALL analytics are crap, and they are ruining sports.
Click to expand...
Eh...

If you mean they're "ruining sports" because teams and orgs are too entrenched in playing systems with no deviation, I might not disagree. It's more chess match than fluid adjust as you're flying type of games which can be more fun typically.

But analytics aren't crap by any measure. The way people here might use them is sure...but the science of them? What you can use them for or find out about a player with them? Nah. They're pretty valuable.

I'm just making up an example here, but consider this scenario:

The Kings see that Byfield isn't finishing his forechecks at the same rate over the past 10 games as he was in the previous 10. They dig into it and see that in the previous 10 games the Kings had a faster zone entry because their zone exits were quicker. They dig further and see that when Matt Roy was the primary facilitator of the exit, they were able to gain the neutral zone faster than when Gavrikov is. So, now they've determined that it's not as much Byfield as it is their zone exits that are the cause of this. You can start to find a way to make Roy be the primary passer out of the zone.

Alternatively, opposing teams have access to this information as well and say, "well to slow down Byfield we need to make sure Gavrikov is the guy who has the puck".

Obviously this is all a made up situation and is by no means comprehensive, but it's a quick and dirty example of what teams can glean from a variety of factors and try to make adjustments to give them the best shot at winning. Does that make the game fun when it's just wrap it to the left and dump it to the right over and over again? No probably not. But does it matter really if you win the Cup?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Guitpik, VILARGOD, johnjm22 and 3 others
It’s gonna take guys years to realize that you can’t Moneyball your way into a winning hockey team. It just ain’t gonna work.

Winning teams often have good analytics, but good analytics don’t necessarily make a winning team. It’s too nuanced a game for that.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Omni Owl
Nasti said:
Or how about losing Vilardi, Iafallo, Kupari, Quick, Arvidsson, Lizotte, in exchange for Kuemper and Gavrikov? Double the #masterclass.
Click to expand...
Durzi was the second round pick that went with Vilardi, Iafallo, & Kupari.

Also, to pull the trade Blake had to move out Cal's contract so you could include Walker, Grans & 2M on Provorov as part of the cost to get Kuemper as well.

We did end up getting a return the first time Kuemper was traded so subtract Reider's value too. Just to be thorough.
 
As much as I am pissed off about losing Durzi and Vilardi - go around and look at other GM's moves.

They aren't all perfect. Yzerman's summer moves? The moves by BriseBois in Tampa? Look how much Vancouver gave up for Zadorov and Lindholm? The players Drury gave away the past few years at the deadline? I can go on and on.

The only teams not really making mistakes are the rebuilding teams because they have nothing to lose - Anaheim, Utah, Calgary...Even Columbus has made some horrible moves including the coach. Buffalo (Kevyn Adams) has made some questionable trades.

All of us fans can list all the teams and list at least 1-2 poor moves by the current GM.

Even Carolina has made some blunders the past few seasons and they are usually pretty solid.

No one is perfect.
 
  • Like
Reactions: KopitarGOAT420, Surf Nutz and Omni Owl
bland said:
ALL analytics are crap, and they are ruining sports.
Click to expand...
Not crap but heavily over used, especially by the media fans. Remember it was used behind the scenes before there was general awareness. Obviously it’s evolved and it definitely became too fashionable but it definitely has a place, when used in balanced fashion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: King'sPawn and 21Dog
Johnny Utah said:
As much as I am pissed off about losing Durzi and Vilardi - go around and look at other GM's moves.

They aren't all perfect. Yzerman's summer moves? The moves by BriseBois in Tampa? Look how much Vancouver gave up for Zadorov and Lindholm? The players Drury gave away the past few years at the deadline? I can go on and on.

The only teams not really making mistakes are the rebuilding teams because they have nothing to lose - Anaheim, Utah, Calgary...Even Columbus has made some horrible moves including the coach. Buffalo (Kevyn Adams) has made some questionable trades.

All of us fans can list all the teams and list at least 1-2 poor moves by the current GM.

Even Carolina has made some blunders the past few seasons and they are usually pretty solid.

No one is perfect.
Click to expand...
Agree the key is how they recover from the bad moves. We can debate how they got out of the Petersen deal. The salary retention was the issue for me because the Walker Philli saw was not the guy we gave up. In general everyone wanted him gone. At least with PLD Blake got rid quickly but the price he paid makes it impossible to recover that one fully.

So at least Blake seems to acknowledge his errors, hopefully Edmundson isn’t another bad one.
 
  • Like
Reactions: King'sPawn
SmytheKing said:
Eh...

If you mean they're "ruining sports" because teams and orgs are too entrenched in playing systems with no deviation, I might not disagree. It's more chess match than fluid adjust as you're flying type of games which can be more fun typically.

But analytics aren't crap by any measure. The way people here might use them is sure...but the science of them? What you can use them for or find out about a player with them? Nah. They're pretty valuable.

I'm just making up an example here, but consider this scenario:

The Kings see that Byfield isn't finishing his forechecks at the same rate over the past 10 games as he was in the previous 10. They dig into it and see that in the previous 10 games the Kings had a faster zone entry because their zone exits were quicker. They dig further and see that when Matt Roy was the primary facilitator of the exit, they were able to gain the neutral zone faster than when Gavrikov is. So, now they've determined that it's not as much Byfield as it is their zone exits that are the cause of this. You can start to find a way to make Roy be the primary passer out of the zone.

Alternatively, opposing teams have access to this information as well and say, "well to slow down Byfield we need to make sure Gavrikov is the guy who has the puck".

Obviously this is all a made up situation and is by no means comprehensive, but it's a quick and dirty example of what teams can glean from a variety of factors and try to make adjustments to give them the best shot at winning. Does that make the game fun when it's just wrap it to the left and dump it to the right over and over again? No probably not. But does it matter really if you win the Cup?
Click to expand...
Good example tbf, in terms of illustrating a point. Analytics will highlight something to investigate but from the team side it won’t end there. They’ll then follow up with video etc. it’s how the use it for scouting. If the eye test matches the analytics then it’s great, if not they dig deeper.
 
  • Like
Reactions: King'sPawn and SmytheKing
Trash Panda said:
It’s gonna take guys years to realize that you can’t Moneyball your way into a winning hockey team. It just ain’t gonna work.

Winning teams often have good analytics, but good analytics don’t necessarily make a winning team. It’s too nuanced a game for that.
Click to expand...
I think you're arguing a different point. No one is saying analytics are the difference between winning the Cup and not winning it. We're saying that if you're not using them at all, you're definitely not going to win one. Relying SOLEY on analytics is definitely not the way to go, but I can almost guarantee you that if you did that, you're going to be more successful than a team that's ran just by the eye test.

Basically, analytics aren't predicative of success, but they'll give you an edge and a better chance to have the success.

Hell, even Walter Gretzky was a big believer in his rudimentary analytics. I remember Gretzky telling a story about how his dad and him would watch HNIC and Wayne would be holding one of those dry erase rink boards and he'd follow the puck with a marker the whole game and then look at where the puck was at most of the game which allowed him to understand where he should be going. What else is that besides analytics?

Statto said:
Good example tbf, in terms of illustrating a point. Analytics will highlight something to investigate but from the team side it won’t end there. They’ll then follow up with video etc. it’s how the use it for scouting. If the eye test matches the analytics then it’s great, if not they dig deeper.
Click to expand...
I think the "analytics are stupid" folks are looking at people saying "well player x has a CF% that's better than player y and therefore he's better" when it's just not that simple. Analytics have become a boogeyman because folks use the simplest examples to make grand statements.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Guitpik, Statto, tbrown33 and 1 other person
Nasti said:
Or how about losing Vilardi, Iafallo, Kupari, Quick, Arvidsson, Lizotte, in exchange for Kuemper and Gavrikov? Double the #masterclass.
Click to expand...
The worst part of everything that has happened, is ownership has just stood by and has no one that will tell them that club is being mismanaged by people who do not know how to build a hockey team.
I have never seen so many course corrections in an organization. I keep saying Kings are just a blip on AEGs map, they barely register and it shows. They should sell team to someone who will make Kings a priority.
 
psych3man said:
Funk, I like you but I gotta say this...
Oh a Yankee fan! What a brave and gutsy call! Are you a Chiefs fan too?
Click to expand...
Haha. I am a suffering BlueJays fan.

I meant that I am a fan of Yanetti.

It’s hard when your two favorite teams get for both have idiots in management The Jays are a lot like the Kings in the fact that there upper line actually think they have a winning team. It’s not that I don’t think the Kings can win games, I just don’t think they can compete for a cup and every year they keep trying is a year wasted and trying to build a team around Byfield.
 
I remember back then I used to wait for the season to start. Now the last two years, I hope it never does.

Raccoon Jesus said:
the individual words triggered me

Kyle Clifford huge bbc tying crossbow manhunt etc





Just like with the scouting

I have no doubt the Kings have one of the best analytics staffs around

But that the front office thinks they're smarter than all the great resources they've surrounded themselves with
Click to expand...
Lmfaooo I am still trying to understand his wife is a what star ? Lmaooo these writers know what they are doing
 
SmytheKing said:
I think you're arguing a different point. No one is saying analytics are the difference between winning the Cup and not winning it. We're saying that if you're not using them at all, you're definitely not going to win one. Relying SOLEY on analytics is definitely not the way to go, but I can almost guarantee you that if you did that, you're going to be more successful than a team that's ran just by the eye test.

Basically, analytics aren't predicative of success, but they'll give you an edge and a better chance to have the success.

Hell, even Walter Gretzky was a big believer in his rudimentary analytics. I remember Gretzky telling a story about how his dad and him would watch HNIC and Wayne would be holding one of those dry erase rink boards and he'd follow the puck with a marker the whole game and then look at where the puck was at most of the game which allowed him to understand where he should be going. What else is that besides analytics?


I think the "analytics are stupid" folks are looking at people saying "well player x has a CF% that's better than player y and therefore he's better" when it's just not that simple. Analytics have become a boogeyman because folks use the simplest examples to make grand statements.
Click to expand...
Yep. People judge it on how fans and media use and interpret the stats. If won’t be how the teams use them.
 
Johnny Utah said:
As much as I am pissed off about losing Durzi and Vilardi - go around and look at other GM's moves.

They aren't all perfect. Yzerman's summer moves? The moves by BriseBois in Tampa? Look how much Vancouver gave up for Zadorov and Lindholm? The players Drury gave away the past few years at the deadline? I can go on and on.

The only teams not really making mistakes are the rebuilding teams because they have nothing to lose - Anaheim, Utah, Calgary...Even Columbus has made some horrible moves including the coach. Buffalo (Kevyn Adams) has made some questionable trades.

All of us fans can list all the teams and list at least 1-2 poor moves by the current GM.

Even Carolina has made some blunders the past few seasons and they are usually pretty solid.

No one is perfect.
Click to expand...
Brisebois not re-signing Stamkos is unforgivable, and now he's strengthening another team in the general region. Nashville's management consistently impresses me. I definitely wanted Stamkos here, he would've been the ideal mentor for the youth and a proven Cup winner.

Teams that are obviously worse than us in the front office department are Buffalo, Columbus, and arguably Ottawa, off the top of my head. We're definitely up there though, I'm just hoping Blake is a fast learner and can evolve. The jettison of PLD proves he might be.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Johnny Utah
Omni Owl said:
Brisebois not re-signing Stamkos is unforgivable, and now he's strengthening another team in the general region. Nashville's management consistently impresses me. I definitely wanted Stamkos here, he would've been the ideal mentor for the youth and a proven Cup winner.

Teams that are obviously worse than us in the front office department are Buffalo, Columbus, and arguably Ottawa, off the top of my head. We're definitely up there though, I'm just hoping Blake is a fast learner and can evolve. The jettison of PLD proves he might be.
Click to expand...
You wanted Stamkos on the Kings? He didnt look great 5 on 5 last year and Tampa was obviously on the downturn. They needed a change.
The Kings have proven cup winners and it hasnt helped the youth much.
Its weird you are impressed with Nashville they have never even won before. They were eliminated in the first round last year. The contracts they signed this offseason wont look great on the back half years so they better make a run in the next couple years.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Latest posts

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Top Bottom