Fire Lindy and Green, Now

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i’m off the fire lindy wagon. it’s not his fault he doesn’t have answers - just accept his limitations for what they are and accept this season for what it is. i dont think they have a run in them may as well just let this run out for the rest of the season.

the problem is that it was up to fitz to see this season for what it was shaping up to be way back in November. no changes and no improvements and he kept lindy behind the bench for way too long. it’s perfectly reasonable to question his judgment for letting this become a lost season.

one poster said this team is too talented to be picking in the top 10, and i’d say there’s no such thing. the early 2000s rangers probably had more talent year in and year out than most teams ever have but they f***ing sucked because they were terrible teams. we are not a good team despite the abundance of talent.
 
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Yep. The Devils don't have any young forwards in their system at all. They're probably going to trade their 1st this year.

He's been a huge disappointment for sure and maybe he will be traded, but yeah it's pretty grim in the system. Hameenaho and that's it for U22 forwards.
Obviously the system is weak, that’s what happens when you have the majority of them graduate to the NHL. but you’re acting like mercer is playing at a point per game with that statement. He’s putting up Andreas Johnsson stats.
 
Yep. The Devils don't have any young forwards in their system at all. They're probably going to trade their 1st this year.

He's been a huge disappointment for sure and maybe he will be traded, but yeah it's pretty grim in the system. Hameenaho and that's it for U22 forwards.

And while Gritsyuk is now 22, he's it. Hameenaho and Gritsyuk. That's pretty much our forward prospect depth. Maybe Squires and Filmon. Stillman, Clarke, and Foote are probably not really top six prospects.

Not much there. Bardakov actually finished what, 12th in our poll in July? For all the criticism of those who were not happy he was tossed aside 2 months before he was a KHL FA.
 
i’m off the fire lindy wagon. it’s not his fault he doesn’t have answers - just accept his limitations for what they are and accept this season for what it is. i dont think they have a run in them may as well just let this run out for the rest of the season.

the problem is that it was up to fitz to see this season for what it was shaping up to be way back in November. no changes and no improvements and he kept lindy behind the bench for way too long. it’s perfectly reasonable to question his judgment for letting this become a lost season.

one poster said this team is too talented to be picking in the top 10, and i’d say there’s no such thing. the early 2000s rangers probably had more talent year in and year out than most teams ever have but they f***ing sucked because they were terrible teams. we are not a good team despite the abundance of talent.
The Devils are a good (not great) team without a goaltender. With a legit 1A they're a top 3 team in the east with Florida and Carolina.

The other issues that need to be addressed are offensive depth (the bottom 6 is thin without McLeod) and fixing whatever the f*** happened to Siegenthaler and Marino.
 
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Obviously the system is weak, that’s what happens when you have the majority of them graduate to the NHL. but you’re acting like mercer is playing at a point per game with that statement. He’s putting up Andreas Johnsson stats.

Yes, and that's precisely the point. The Devils have NOTHING behind him. So while trading him is certainly an option given how he's performed, this is it for a while barring some unforeseen miracle.
 
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The Devils are a good (not great) team without a goaltender. With a legit 1A they're a top 3 team in the east with Florida and Carolina.

The other issues that need to be addressed are offensive depth (the bottom 6 is thin without McLeod) and fixing whatever the f*** happened to Siegenthaler and Marino.

So you're saying that. we're a "top 3 team" except:
- we have no goaltending,
- we have waiver-quality bottom six,
- we have no defence (because limiting it just to Siegs and Marino is unfair, given that we ice #7Ds like Miller, Smith and Bahl every night, add Hughes' performance in defence, the fact that you can't really shelter anyone of them).

So we aren't a top 3 team in the East, we have a very strong top six but we're quite weak everywhere else.
 
So you're saying that. we're a "top 3 team" except:
- we have no goaltending,
- we have waiver-quality bottom six,
- we have no defence (because limiting it just to Siegs and Marino is unfair, given that we ice #7Ds like Miller, Smith and Bahl every night, add Hughes' performance in defence, the fact that you can't really shelter anyone of them).

So we aren't a top 3 team in the East, we have a very strong top six but we're quite weak everywhere else.

We have a strong top four. And two promising rookie defensemen. That's it. That's what we're reduced to.

The rest of the top 9 are mid.
 
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The Devils are a good (not great) team without a goaltender. With a legit 1A they're a top 3 team in the east with Florida and Carolina.

The other issues that need to be addressed are offensive depth (the bottom 6 is thin without McLeod) and fixing whatever the f*** happened to Siegenthaler and Marino.
you’re still talking about the talent and i’m talking about the team. i’m taking into account the coach, the system, the lack of confidence, the failure to show up against weaker opponents, the sulking, the disappointing power play, the questionable personnel decisions, the getting pushed around by physical opponents the with no response, the utter inability to put together a string of wins or carry momentum from one game to another

they’re not a top 3 team if you just add a goalie, i’m sorry. it’s an extremely flawed team that has a stupid level of talent and what should be a bright future but that’s just a little bit more in doubt now than it was a year ago
 
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Every game that Lind is still in charge is a damnit indictment on Fitz.

I love what hes done for the team building but he is entering Shero territory with Hynes here. Cannot believe Ruff still has a job, he should be jettison'd once we get back from Cali.

Even if the season is over, I want to be able to assess our players with someone competent behind the bench.
 
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TL;DR: Fire everyone, this is a cancer from the very top to the bottom

Timo Meier is not working out on the LW side. Dawson Mercer has struggled all season and has been playing RW. That nobody had the spark to say "hey, let's swap them!" is insane. Holtz definitely needed some tough love to remind him of responsible play and positioning earlier in the season, especially after scoring where he'd revert a little, but he's also one of the best scorers 5v5 and /60 on the team, and when we've struggled, he's been buried on the 4th line getting under 8 minutes a game. It's insanity that he still has a shot at a 20 goal season despite such low ice time and scrub linemates.

I want Lindy Ruff and Travis Green fired ASAP - I never wanted Travis Green on the staff, it's such a huge downgrade from Brunette I'm not even sure how to put it into words because English despite its excellence at specificity STILL doesn't have the specifics enough to describe that gap. But I want Rogalski gone - it's baloney that every single one of the 327 goalies that have suited up for the New Jersey Devils over the last 3 years are trash. And have their worst seasons here. Our system is antiquated and one dimensional (Jon Cooper, who I'd love to hire here, called that), and that's a major problem especially when you have 3 starters with fewer games under their belt than a single full season like we had. But it's also goaltending coaching.

I also want the health staff replaced. It's an indictment of incompetence when we keep throwing players back on the ice after injuries that the Bad News Bears would say "you know what, maybe sit out the rest and ice it". We get injuries compounded all the time and now we have players playing with chronic issues. How many times do we have to have head injuries more than once in a game? How long before a player sues this franchise (and I'll be rooting them on)?

Some players have not really pushed hard. Some players need to be pulled aside and told we need to see more dedication to their craft. You don't get millions to play a child's pond activity to spend time before your folks call you in for dinner in winter and not be expected to treat it like any other profession. @My3Sons would get his license revoked if he just turned up in court without any preparation, if he filed paperwork incorrectly. Same here.

Finally, I despise this ownership. Sure they have stable money unlike Vanderbeek. JV was a fan, at least. These guys just count cash and treat the fans so poorly - reading the ticket thread it is astonishing how crappy they treat season ticket holders, and then an egregious 9% fee rise for a terrible product? We don't even win at home. The building kind of sucks. Walking through Pru center - it's so bland, grey, boring, lifeless. It's 99% big name companies - beer, food, whatever - and all of very low quality at ridiculous prices. $25 for a macro brew when I could buy a case of it for that, should I want to reduce myself to that. Featured new food items present only at one or two stands. PNC Arena here in Raleigh kicks Prudential Center's ass in all ways and it's an older barn. But it celebrates Raleigh - several food stands are partnerships with local restaurants. No fewer than 5 or 6 local breweries have beers sold. Stands/kiosks featuring regional foods. Also expensive, but it's higher quality by far. And the atmosphere is better, warmer, friendlier. And it shows because there's a frigging list for season tickets. Despite their fans being some of the worst in the league (I shake my head and even sometimes cannot contain myself when they just don't know hockey or act ridiculously boorish) it's a great place to take in a game. Prudential Center? Meh. And despite being further north why does our ice always seem crap? I've been posting that I miss John McMullen - that guy loved Jersey and wanted a team for us here, not teams like the NFL Giants and Jets and the MLS MetroStars/Red Bull using NY despite playing here for the majority of or all of their existence.

Sorry for the long post.
No thank you for the long post!
 
It’s too late to acquire a goalie and it’s too late to fire anyone on the staff.

Though I would fire Rogalski. It’s a mortal sin that he’s lasted this long into the season.

I hope he never works in this league again. Maybe he’ll open up a goaltending school and start ROBBING people of their hard earned money to teach their kids how to be a bunch of leaky shooter tutors.

I’m glad he gets to stay here and poison these goalies we have up right now.

I don’t really think Ruff is poisonous. Green probably isn’t either, at least not as an assistant/associate coach. Ruff just isn’t the answer anymore and it’s time to move on. I don’t think it’s imperative to get him out of here ASAP though. The season is cooked.

Rogalski should have been nuked months ago.
 
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He tried earlier in the year. My Flames connection said he tried for Markstrom and Hellebuyck but the offer wasn't right.

Mercer is having a down year but an all situations player who can probably be a 70 point player is a bum ? He's practically a core player behind Jack , Nico , Bratt , Luke and Nemec. He's right there behind them. Tradeable ? Yes. Valuable to this team now and in the future? Yes.

Yeah Fitzgerald has done some frustrating stuff by not firing Lindy and this trade from today is kind of a dumb move as well but you are being a bit dramatic. We don't need to overpay for players in their mid 30's. This season wasn't really cup pr bust. It's next year when the pressure to bounce back that Fitzgerald and the players will feel the heat.
He's not even remotely close to any of that lmao.

Every metric show's he's not that. He is not a core guy. Some of you need to accept that. He's a comp piece that has to produce off the play driving of others. That's why he's mostly shit when at center, and when he's not with Nico, Bratt or Jack.

Can you give us examples of this because I have no clue what you're talking about.
He was on every podcast and hockey radio show in Canada imaginable talking the team up etc. This year he has done very little of that and has been super silent.
 
I’m not Mercer’s biggest fan at this point but if he’s such a worthless plug, why do you think all these teams want him going back to the Sharks in the Timo deal? This isn’t ’the fanbase’ overrating someone, other teams want him badly.
Hockey men counting stats. That's why. He's literally not a play driver, he's not good on the PK, he's not good on the PP. GM's just see the goal totals and that he has played at center a few times and think utility top 6 player with room to grow given the totals. He's not.

He's exactly the type of player you trade when his value is high for a goalie.

Tom failed big time there. Him not taking calls on Mercer is such a failure on par with keeping Ruff.
 
I agree that part of the blame falls on Fitzgerald (Ruff doesn't help but he has to deal with the roster that has bad goaltending combined with being forced to play three #7Ds and Luke Hughes who can't defend at the NHL level) but in the salary cap world you can't consistently fix issues by adding expensive pieces, especially if it costs you cheap assets.

You need to fix issues by drafting, developing, creative and out-of-the-box signings and not by paying for the worst years of Palat's, Meier's and Hamilton's careers. Markstrom/Saros/Ullmark would be another move of this type.
They literally drafted their core guys. They have Nemec and Luke on top of a signed Hamiton. Trading for and signing Meier was good. Palat's contract is the only bad one. You dont build a team strictly by drafting. You do it by trades, drafting, and free agent signings when they make sense. Hamilton has been great when healthy and should age like Burns and as a signing makes sense. The cap is going up.

The team is in win now mode. You Pay guys like Saros and Ullmark because they have good years left. Markstrom is a guy that you trade for because he only has 2 years left and then he's done, but given how he's playing he can steal you rounds.

Drafting goalies is impossible. Trying to bank on that is stupid since you could likely be waiting out the core players contract lengths for that.


You guys over value the hell out of prospects and want to be cheap. That is not how you win.

Fitz is not the guy for this job. He pissed an entire season away when they are a cup contender because he value's his dog shit coach too much, and over values guys that are not core pieces and refused to trade them to lock down the biggest hole the team has that has crushed them and caused them to lose to the ducks twice, the sharks once, the coyotes once, the Flames once, the capitals 3 times. I mean you win most of these games, you're comfortably in a playoff spot. Can't do that with out a good goalie clearly.
 
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@Guttersniped I could use your assistance with some charts.

Graves-Marino played by far the toughest minutes. Wasn’t close, at all. Severson was a 3rd pairing defenseman when Marino was in the lineup.

That doesn't mean everyone else played "protect minutes" :laugh:

Graves most common partner after Marino was Severson.

Severson played as much with Graves and Siegenthaler combined as he did with anyone else...calling him a 3rd pairing Dman is bullshit

What is this argument exactly?

We had two top pairs. Siegenthaler-Hamilton was the top offensive pair and Graves-Marino was the shutdown pair.

And Severson-Smith/Bahl was the third pair.

These are the 5v5 pairs last year that played more than 100 minutes together.
IMG_4661.jpeg
Marino only played 64 games, Graves mostly played with Severson when he was out.

You can see the bump in Severson’s ice-time when Marino was out:
IMG_4665.png

Here’s a quality of competition chart, and Severson’s is that high because he played tougher minutes with Graves.
IMG_4666.jpeg
These are the PK pairings who played more than 20 minutes together.
IMG_4662.jpeg
We relied heavily on the Graves/Marino pairing on PK.

Here’s the special team usage chart.
IMG_4663.jpeg
Severson had a secondary role on both the PP & PK.

The biggest losses on defense caused the losses of our key two pairs, it’s Hamilton and Graves.

Severson was a very useful player to have. He’s a very good PMD who pairs well with almost anyone. However he had a less important role last year, compared to previous seasons.

This was pretty obvious and discussed, not sure how it’s even a point of contention.
 
What is this argument exactly?

We had two top pairs. Siegenthaler-Hamilton was the top offensive pair and Graves-Marino was the shutdown pair.

And Severson-Smith/Bahl was the third pair.

These are the 5v5 pairs last year that played more than 100 minutes together.
View attachment 828183
Marino only played 64 games, Graves mostly played with Severson when he was out.

You can see the bump in Severson’s ice-time when Marino was out:
View attachment 828190

Here’s a quality of competition chart, and Severson’s is that high because he played tougher minutes with Graves.
View attachment 828193
These are the PK pairings who played more than 20 minutes together.
View attachment 828181
We relied heavily on the Graves/Marino pairing on PK.

Here’s the special team usage chart.
View attachment 828186
Severson had a secondary role on both the PP & PK.

The biggest losses on defense caused the losses of our key two pairs, it’s Hamilton and Graves.

Severson was a very useful player to have. He’s a very good PMD who pairs well with almost anyone. However he had a less important role last year, compared to previous seasons.

This was pretty obvious and discussed, not sure how it’s even a point of contention.
Severson played about 1/2 of his 1365:13 5v5 minutes with Bahl and Smith. Where were the other half?
 
Hockey men counting stats. That's why. He's literally not a play driver, he's not good on the PK, he's not good on the PP. GM's just see the goal totals and that he has played at center a few times and think utility top 6 player with room to grow given the totals. He's not.

He's exactly the type of player you trade when his value is high for a goalie.

Tom failed big time there. Him not taking calls on Mercer is such a failure on par with keeping Ruff.

I disagree and think it would be a big mistake to trade Mercer.

I think you’re looking at some stats too and not seeing how much his play-style fits the current NHL.
 
Severson played about 1/2 of his 1365:13 5v5 minutes with Bahl and Smith. Where were the other half?

Here you go:
IMG_4667.jpeg

They never strictly stick to pairs during games, guys play a little with everyone and it adds up.

Here’s a HockeyViz chart of 5v5 deployment for 2022-23 defensemen.

IMG_4668.png

The pairs were pretty stable. The Graves/Marino pair struggled a bit before Marino went out, you can see their ice-time dip a bit.
 
Here you go:
View attachment 828216

They never strictly stick to pairs during games, guys play a little with everyone and it adds up.

Here’s a HockeyViz chart of 5v5 deployment for 2022-23 defensemen.

View attachment 828218

The pairs were pretty stable. The Graves/Marino pair struggled a bit before Marino went out, you can see their ice-time dip a bit.
Right.

Severson 5v5 minutes: 1365−427(w/Smith)−302(w/Bahl)= 636 remaining.


636/1365 = 47% of his 5v5 time was not with obvious 3rd pairing guys.

It was literally with everyone else in the top 4.

Calling this player 3rd pairing is simply incorrect. Not that it matters. NHL teams don't hand out 6+ million dollar contracts for 3rd pair Dmen and the label for Severson is pure silliness
 
Right.

Severson 5v5 minutes: 1365−427(w/Smith)−302(w/Bahl)= 636 remaining.


636/1365 = 47% of his 5v5 time was not with obvious 3rd pairing guys.

It was literally with everyone else in the top 4.

Calling this player 3rd pairing is simply incorrect. Not that it matters. NHL teams don't hand out 6+ million dollar contracts for 3rd pair Dmen and the label for Severson is pure silliness

Adding up minutes like that is meaningless, Severson was never paired with Hamilton and yet he ended up playing with him for 96:55 because defensemen end up in several random pairs during games.

Look at Hamilton’s pairing:
IMG_4671.jpeg

Here’s how Severson’s shared ice-time was distributed.
IMG_4670.jpeg

He played the majority of the games on the 3rd pair. He was on the PP2 and was 5th in ATOI on the PK. The team was preparing to move on from him.

He didn’t always play on 3rd line. This chart shows when he got more ice time. (Unlike your basically useless math.)
IMG_4668.png

Severson was obviously slumming on 3rd pair, pushed down due to depth. We had two RHD on our two top pairs, this isn’t Lake Wobegon where only 7D are 5/6 defensemen. Severson was our #5.

He needed to leave and sign with a team that would give him a bigger role. That’s why it would have made no sense for Severson to take less money to stay last year.
 
Adding up minutes like that is meaningless, Severson was never paired with Hamilton and yet he ended up playing with him for 96:55 because defensemen end up in several random pairs during games.

Look at Hamilton’s pairing:
View attachment 828239

Here’s how Severson’s shared ice-time was distributed.
View attachment 828231

He played the majority of the games on the 3rd pair. He was on the PP2 and was 5th in ATOI on the PK. The team was preparing to move on from him.

He didn’t always play on 3rd line. This chart shows when he got more ice time. (Unlike your basically useless math.)
View attachment 828235

Severson was obviously slumming on 3rd pair, pushed down due to depth. We had two RHD on our two top pairs, this isn’t Lake Wobegon where only 7D are 5/6 defensemen. Severson was our #5.

He needed to leave and sign with a team that would give him a bigger role. That’s why it would have made no sense for Severson to take less money to stay last year.
Adding up his time is meaningless if you want to ignore half of his season. :laugh:

Subtracting his Hamilton time still leaves 40% of total time .

He played half of his time in the top 4 no matter how you slice it. That's why he literally finished 4th in 5v5 toi.
 
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