Fire Lindy and Green, Now

[Unknown Caller]

I say this as someone whose time at Penn overlapped with each of the primary owners, and who has a son working in private equity.

-- People who are very successfully in one area tend to think they are experts in all areas
-- People who are absurdly rich (self-made of Trust fund kds) tend to think they have important insights into ... everything
-- People who tick both of the above boxes are exponentially worse
-- PE guys may be the worst of the worst of those who tick the first two boxes

PE destroys much of what it touches ... looking forward to them doing to childcare what they have done to health care.

On the other hand, I've worked with plenty of PE guys who are incredibly intelligent and business-savvy. They generally don't act like they know everything, but the strategy is to hire the right people who do have important insights (which is what the owners have done).

Most coaches/GMs who hate PE owners are guys who want to have complete autonomy to run their entire operation without input. Harris and Blitzer especially are huge on having group input and leveraging data/analytics.

Anyway, there are two sides to every story.

 

[JimEIV]

You're really hung up on this idea that we need a coach specifically to complete the transition.

We have two rookies on D. Both have a ton of potential, but one of them is already good enough to be playing regularly in the top 4. The other needs more babysitting. A competent coach who isn't a dinosaur should be able to balance that with a win now approach just fine.

I just don't think coaching is going to do much right now

 

[forceten]

What is PE?

Private Equity and they're a evil, demonic nightmare that destroys most companies they invest in by demanding higher revenue above anything including in good order maintenance, planning, etc.

 

[Unknown Caller]

Private Equity and they're a evil, demonic nightmare that destroys most companies they invest in by demanding higher revenue above anything including in good order maintenance, planning, etc.

It's not limited to PE. Public companies only act to maximize shareholder value as well, so it's standard American business.

 

[My3Sons]

I say this as someone whose time at Penn overlapped with each of the primary owners, and who has a son working in private equity.

-- People who are very successfully in one area tend to think they are experts in all areas
-- People who are absurdly rich (self-made of Trust fund kds) tend to think they have important insights into ... everything
-- People who tick both of the above boxes are exponentially worse
-- PE guys may be the worst of the worst of those who tick the first two boxes

PE destroys much of what it touches ... looking forward to them doing to childcare what they have done to health care.

too much about our financial system is driven by short term results and it's not often any investment is made to actually run a business. You see tons of funds trying to find a salvageable business, get it revamped, fire everyone to make the expense report look good, run it to profitability, and then sell it before it craters again. Harris and Blitzer both came up through that system. Now in theory, HBSE purchases these teams with the goal of actually owning and running them and not just improving the franchise value to sell them. But much of their systemic approach will be used (daily reports on a hockey team? Really? - Report for Feb. 23. Game against the NYR at Prudential Center. Revenue of $2,640,376.12. Expenses of $1,624,509.84. Sold 12% more Jack Hughes jerseys than the same date last season. 12 reports of illness from undercooked chicken tenders. 2 sales of season ticket plans for next season. 6 cancellations of season tickets for next season. One player asked that kotbuller be added to the post game catering in the locker room. Out of gauze for the first aid kit.

 

[Call Me Al]

I definitely agree he was a transitional coach. He was there to get the young players up to speed and acclimated to the league. I think he did a great job with Jack and Bratt...

But I'm not sure that transition is complete. It certainly isn't with the defense.

I kind of feel that many of us think this team is further ahead than it really is from the flash of success we saw last year.

you definitely have a point. but there are a lot of fans who were quite literally sold on the idea that the window is open and the time is now, and they made some “win now” moves like toffoli. season tickets went up last season and they’re going up a lot again next year.

it’s only a matter of time before fans get fed up with a lot of self inflicted missteps and get tired of watching a team that is just as likely to frustrate and annoy you as they are making you happy that you made the effort to go to a game.

if the rest of the season plays out like the last couple of games or the team really goes into the tank then the environment at the rock is going to get ugly and the mood around the team will get a lot darker

 

[Richer's Ghost]

I am fine with Luke coming off PP1 or even sitting for a game, but he is never (nor should he) gonna be sent to the AHL.

Luke needs a breather, not a makeover. Nothing wrong with taking a beat watching the first unit or even sitting a game or two. We've got competent fill ins that can be called up for a cup of coffee. Hatakka was impressive in his debut to me. Might be better to have more stay at home in the lineup right now anyways.

 

[forceten]

Short term gains and the fraud that "maximizing shareholder value" is the #1 priority of an organization whose executives plan for 3-4 year timelines to get maximum comp and jump out before their actions' shambles are noticed and re-do the cycle are the bane of our system. It stifles innovation, it erodes real development and sustainability, and it rewards shysters and sociopaths.

I have no doubt that the Devils are a line on HBSE sheet and when the #s are right they'll just sell it and do it again.

 

[NjdevilfanJim]

View attachment 824111

Yep and that's why he is at least entertaining the thought of making a trade is for Ruff....It's a risk and could bite him in the ass.

 

[NjDevsRR]

View attachment 824111

I sadly clicked “click to expand” many many times.

 

[indfin]

On the other hand, I've worked with plenty of PE guys who are incredibly intelligent and business-savvy. They generally don't act like they know everything, but the strategy is to hire the right people who do have important insights (which is what the owners have done).

Most coaches/GMs who hate PE owners are guys who want to have complete autonomy to run their entire operation without input. Harris and Blitzer especially are huge on having group input and leveraging data/analytics.

Anyway, there are two sides to every story.

No question that most PE folks are bright. Business-savvy is a subjective term and means different things to different people (including short-term vs. long-term). There are also PE firms that invest in (relatively) early and mid-stage companies (where they either hold long-term and/or take them public) and others that gut mature (often public) companies and sell them for scrap. Also not sure that it serves society well to have the PE mindset in health care, childcare, etc.

Putting that debate aside, let's look at the Devils owners' record of franchise ownership.

Now in their 13th year of "trusting the process", Sixers fans haven't seen their team make a conference final (and the process took six years to make the playoffs).

When this season ends, Devils fans will like have seen two playoff appearances (and one playoff round victory) in 11 years.

I can't speak to the Sixers sth experience, but the value provided to NJ Devils sths has steadily declined over the last decade.

 

[Bleedred]

Short term gains and the fraud that "maximizing shareholder value" is the #1 priority of an organization whose executives plan for 3-4 year timelines to get maximum comp and jump out before their actions' shambles are noticed and re-do the cycle are the bane of our system. It stifles innovation, it erodes real development and sustainability, and it rewards shysters and sociopaths.

I have no doubt that the Devils are a line on HBSE sheet and when the #s are right they'll just sell it and do it again.

I don't see any evidence that they intend to flip the team anytime soon. In fact, they're the second longest ownership group the team has had behind only McMullen. They've owned the team now for almost 11 years. McMullen had it for just under 20 years. Hucksterbeek had it for not even 10 years. Then there was the few years of the YankeeNets thing in between McMullen and the Huckster, who was part of YankeeNets.

They haven't flipped the Sixers either and I think they bought them 2 years before they bought the Devils? Maybe it was only 1-1.5 years prior?

 

[My3Sons]

No question that most PE folks are bright. Business-savvy is a subjective term and means different things to different people (including short-term vs. long-term). There are also PE firms that invest in (relatively) early and mid-stage companies (where they either hold long-term and/or take them public) and others that gut mature (often public) companies and sell them for scrap. Also not sure that it serves society well to have the PE mindset in health care, childcare, etc.

Putting that debate aside, let's look at the Devils owners' record of franchise ownership.

Now in their 13th year of "trusting the process", Sixers fans haven't seen their team make a conference final (and the process took six years to make the playoffs).

When this season ends, Devils fans will like have seen two playoff appearances (and one playoff round victory) in 11 years.

I can't speak to the Sixers sth experience, but the value provided to NJ Devils sths has steadily declined over the last decade.

My kids follow basketball pretty closely and from listening to them, it's a very very different sport in terms of winning and losing. I could see why that NFL coach made the comments he did.

 

[Bleedred]

For some reason there's been a negative perception of this ownership group, mostly because they didn't spend (even though they did the first two years they were here, before we blew it up) and we went all these years not near the cap, due to rebuilding. The talk of that quieted down last year, but I'm sure it will start up again.

I've never seen anything about the way this team is run to suggest ownership are cheap or don't wanna spend. The expenditures on this team are merely a drop in the bucket to HBSE.

This team stays at Ritz Carlton/5 star hotels on the road in cities that have them. There's a lot of teams that stay in 4 star hotels like the Westin across the street from those 5 star hotels and I'm not talking just teams like the Arizona Coyotes. There's cap teams staying in the cheaper hotels than some teams do. Like the ones we've been staying at since HarrisBlitzer purchased the team.

So I see no evidence to suggest costs have ever been cut under them in the day to day operations of this team. Other than ''Not a cap team'' when it was by design. And the design of not being a competitive team, not because they didn't wanna pay.

They turfed Shero I think in the first year of his (was it 4-5 years?) of his extension and they may still be paying him this year. Or maybe his extension in early 2019 didn't even kick in until 2020-2021, which was after he was fired? Shero got that money from HBSE until it ran/runs out. Minnesota didn't pick up the tab on that so he could be ''Senior advisor to the GM'' or whatever he is over there.

 

[guitarguyvic]

For some reason there's been a negative perception of this ownership group, mostly because they didn't spend (even though they did the first two years they were here, before we blew it up) and we went all these years not near the cap, due to rebuilding. The talk of that quieted down last year, but I'm sure it will start up again.

I've never seen anything about the way this team is run to suggest ownership are cheap or don't wanna spend. The expenditures on this team are merely a drop in the bucket to HBSE.

This team stays at Ritz Carlton/5 star hotels on the road in cities that have them. There's a lot of teams that stay in 4 star hotels like the Westin across the street from those 5 star hotels and I'm not talking just teams like the Arizona Coyotes. There's cap teams staying in the cheaper hotels than some teams do. Like the ones we've been staying at since HarrisBlitzer purchased the team.

So I see no evidence to suggest costs have ever been cut under them in the day to day operations of this team. Other than ''Not a cap team'' when it was by design. And the design of not being a competitive team, not because they didn't wanna pay.

They turfed Shero I think in the first year of his (was it 4-5 years?) of his extension and they may still be paying him this year. Or maybe his extension in early 2019 didn't even kick in until 2020-2021, which was after he was fired? Shero got that money from HBSE until it ran/runs out. Minnesota didn't pick up the tab on that so he could be ''Senior advisor to the GM'' or whatever he is over there.

Yeah I don't know where this idea that they are cheap comes from. That being said, I am concerned about the culture and leadership in this organization. There's a lot of red flags that have popped up at varying times over the last decade as they've navigated nothing but futility outside of two seasons where everything on the ice seemed to go right.

 

[My3Sons]

For some reason there's been a negative perception of this ownership group, mostly because they didn't spend (even though they did the first two years they were here, before we blew it up) and we went all these years not near the cap, due to rebuilding. The talk of that quieted down last year, but I'm sure it will start up again.

I've never seen anything about the way this team is run to suggest ownership are cheap or don't wanna spend. The expenditures on this team are merely a drop in the bucket to HBSE.

This team stays at Ritz Carlton/5 star hotels on the road in cities that have them. There's a lot of teams that stay in 4 star hotels like the Westin across the street from those 5 star hotels and I'm not talking just teams like the Arizona Coyotes. There's cap teams staying in the cheaper hotels than some teams do. Like the ones we've been staying at since HarrisBlitzer purchased the team.

So I see no evidence to suggest costs have ever been cut under them in the day to day operations of this team. Other than ''Not a cap team'' when it was by design. And the design of not being a competitive team, not because they didn't wanna pay.

They turfed Shero I think in the first year of his (was it 4-5 years?) of his extension and they may still be paying him this year. Or maybe his extension in early 2019 didn't even kick in until 2020-2021, which was after he was fired? Shero got that money from HBSE until it ran/runs out. Minnesota didn't pick up the tab on that so he could be ''Senior advisor to the GM'' or whatever he is over there.

I don't think the owners are tight fisted when it comes to spending on the teams. I don't think that's what today's ownership discussion is looking at. It's more about the way a short sighted near term (how do we look today how do we look compared to the last 90 days how do we look compared to the same day last year) approach detracts from the building of the on ice product which doesn't adapt well to just applying big numbers. Moneyball has some validity but it isn't really a replacement for everything else. Look at Carolina, they've been moneyball and done about as good a job as you can do with it. They haven't won anything and won't win this season and their window likely closes in two years. In contrast look at Tampa. They have overspent on some additions but they identified guys who didn't necessarily fit a stats profile and won. I'm sure Tampa used some analytics but it was just a tool not an overarching decision maker for them. Sort of the way the swarm is a small space single situation drill in lacrosse not a basis for an entire in zone defensive system in hockey.

 

[Alex NJD]

His time is just up. I'd like to thank Lindy for developing a lot of the young guys at least but with how many guys took a step back this year I can't even do that. The guys who haven't stepped back this year, Jack, Nico and Jesper, were already borderline-elite to elite talents before he came in and likely just needed a coach who wasn't the last guy to blossom here.

 

[Bleedred]

I half-wonder if the issue is with ownership. If Fitz fires Lindy then I'm not sure he'll be able to find a coach that will agree to the bizarre power structure that Harris insists on. They took a LONG time to remove the interim tag off Fitz and a lot of insiders at the time said that our ownership situation was not normal. They're hands-on in all the annoying and unimportant ways and hands-off in the ways that actually matter. They want daily reports, minority owners all have a say in operations.

Ruff was not on anyone's radar when we hired him. I'm starting to think that's not because we thought he was the best candidate, but because he was the only candidate willing to actually work here. If you're a good coach, why would you sign up to deal with all of this meddling and bullshit? Lindy's HC career was done, he was demoted to an assistant in NYR. Of course he'll take any job he can get, he's just happy to be here. Same thing with Hynes - he was a college coach when we hired him, he wasn't going to turn down the opportunity to get an NHL job.

Harris has already shown his ass with the Commanders hiring process despite only having the team for a few months. High profile NFL assistant Ben Johnson publicly turned down the Commanders position, forcing them to hire a retread in Dan Quinn. The team leaked info about Johnson "not interviewing well" but it turns out he was the one that rejected them - he thought Harris and his minority partners came off as overconfident clowns.



All of the other coaches we talked to back in 2020 were guys that got coaching positions somewhere else. Would Ruff have gotten another HC position had we not hired him? I don't think so.

If Fitz isn't confident that he can find another coach willing to deal with all this bullshit, it makes sense why he'd be so hesitant to fire Ruff. That would mean he's forced to hire an internal replacement - Green (eww), Dineen, Brylin, McGill, or possibly put Dennehy back behind the bench. Either that or hire a first-time HC from college, juniors, or Europe, and IMO that's the last thing this team needs.

The only two big names I remember hearing about were Gallant and Laviolette. For some reason I had this theory that Bruce Boudreau was going to be the next head coach of the Devils. I felt like that when Hynes was still here and Boudreau was still in Minnesota. That never happened. Maybe it would have under Shero.

Gronborg was the only other name I heard of at any point also. In fact, there was something that came out at the end of 2020-2021 (Ruff's first season) that they wouldn't be surprised to see Ruff let go after just one year if they could hire the guy they really want in Gronborg and poach him out of Zurich. I think that may have been Larry Brooks writing that. Larry Brooks was the one who started the smear campaign (which I think he's dummied up on since last season and hasn't even started up again yet, which is a surprise, I figured he would after last night) on Ruff back in 2021-2022. EARLY that season, actually. He had a bunch of pieces about how the Devils need to fire him even before New Years of 2022.

Gronborg was let go by Switzerland halfway through 22-23 and got hired by one of the Finnish teams this past offseason.

But the Laviolette and Gallant stuff both seemed to be about money. Which of course cued up the ''OWNERSHIP DUHHZINT WONUH PAAAAYYY!'' stuff. At the time it did make sense not to spend a load on those coaches as the team wasn't really serious yet.

Laviolette took the Capitals job a couple of months later when that opened up (remember, the Capitals were still playing in the bubble playoffs with Todd Reirden as head coach at the time we were interviewing people/hired Ruff) and Gallant sat out a whole year before taking the Rangers job.

The reports were from somebody that ''I'm hearing people talking as if the Devils have already signed Gallant and it's a done deal'' from someone. Not someone very reputable from what I remember. And then out of nowhere we heard Ruff. Maybe a couple of days before he was hired?

Anyway, Ruff had went 3 straight offseasons of not getting a head coaching job or at least not taking one. He became an assistant for the Rangers immediately after Dallas let him go in 2017. At the time the Rangers hired him, it felt as though he was a coach in waiting to Vigneault, the same way it feels like Green may be coach in waiting to him here right now. However, Vigneault only lasted one year there after they brought in Ruff and they opted to go with a rookie NHL head coach in David Quinn over Ruff.

Ruff would have come back in 20-21 with the Rangers (they hired Jacques Martin to replace him on the staff) and then he would have been sacked with the entire Quinn regime after that year. Maybe Buffalo would have brought him back from the head coaching dead. They're the only team I could see giving him a head coaching gig after this. It's not like he's under 50 years old like John Hynes, who teams just can't wait to hire. There was a time Ruff was thought of that highly, but he'll be 65 years old less than a year.

 

[forceten]

I don't think the owners are tight fisted when it comes to spending on the teams. I don't think that's what today's ownership discussion is looking at. It's more about the way a short sighted near term (how do we look today how do we look compared to the last 90 days how do we look compared to the same day last year) approach detracts from the building of the on ice product which doesn't adapt well to just applying big numbers. Moneyball has some validity but it isn't really a replacement for everything else. Look at Carolina, they've been moneyball and done about as good a job as you can do with it. They haven't won anything and won't win this season and their window likely closes in two years. In contrast look at Tampa. They have overspent on some additions but they identified guys who didn't necessarily fit a stats profile and won. I'm sure Tampa used some analytics but it was just a tool not an overarching decision maker for them. Sort of the way the swarm is a small space single situation drill in lacrosse not a basis for an entire in zone defensive system in hockey.

I agree that they aren't tight fisted. But I think they spend in ways that prioritize maximum revenue and not product development (the arena, food, season ticket holders benefits, as well as the coaching et al)

 

[Emperoreddy]

We are getting clowned on because of this

 

[NjdevilfanJim]

Woodcroft. Berube actually sucks.

Didn't the oilers do really good after letting him go?

 

[Poppy Whoa Sonnet]

Yeah incurring the PE playbook doesn't make sense to me to guess where the team is headed and how it's run, I always assumed these pro sports teams are not traditional assets to owners but hobbies/vanity projects. Something more akin to a superyacht than like your small town factory to be strip mined.

Not to say they won't sell if they feel like its no longer growing in value every year. A lot of people became interested in owning a sports team not just for vanity reasons but because the value has been growing absurdly the last 30+ years.

 

[Its Always Sundstrom]

Ruff needs to go, but I dont want to tie our hands to any coach before seeing who is available in the off season. Give someone not named Green the interim tag for the rest of the season and then evaluate during the summer who is out there rather than taking whoever right now cause were frustrated with Ruff.

Berube seems like a good option right now, but if summer comes around and Sullivan is out there or even Cooper (very unlikely but every coach gets fired at some point) then you want to try to get one of those over him.

Missed the game last night and only saw the comments here up to the match penalty point. I was driving home from an event in the city, had a great time and has happy only to see the ESB lit up in red/blue/white after it was all white when I drove in earlier. My stomach filled with dread as I looked the score. Ugh.

I wonder if there’s a Lemaire or Jacque Martin-like coach out there who can come and interim for the rest of the season and report what‘s up with the team. Boudreau or someone like that? I would kill for a Roger Nielsen right now. No idea who, but a coaching consultant to assess for the rest of the year. And then use the off season to find our Bednar. Brad Shaw (Torts coaching tree anyone)? Karl Taylor (killing it with AHL Milwaukee)? Try Gronberg again? I commit crimes to pry Cooper from TB. I have no idea who or what or how, but would like to see something fresh or fresher than something recycled.

I get the whole ownership/management structure thing going on but someone has to want to come in and coach these guys with ideas and a system to propel them to contention.

 

[Bleedred]

Didn't the oilers do really good after letting him go?

I think they would have eventually gotten it together under Woodcroft, but I do think Knoblauch may be better.

Really where Woodcroft f***ed up was he sold out by actually giving Jack Campbell a chance and rotating goalies every other game. Skinner was struggling early in the year, so he kept going to Campbell (who also struggled, just as he has in his last 85 or so NHL games and just as he has continued to do in the AHL the last I saw) even though he knew better than to give Campbell starts in the playoffs when Skinner was struggling.

They took Campbell away from him about two games before he got fired by waiving him (that's the precursor to the a coach getting fired, much like Schneider about 2 weeks before Hynes was fired) but they were embarrassed by the Sharks the game after that, and that probably got him fired. He coached one last game on the road trip, which management likely spent those days banging things out with the Rangers and negotiating on plucking Knoblauch away from them.

 

[Poppy Whoa Sonnet]

I think they would have eventually gotten it together under Woodcroft, but I do think Knoblauch may be better.

Really where Woodcroft f***ed up was he sold out by actually giving Jack Campbell a chance and rotating goalies every other game. Skinner was struggling early in the year, so he kept going to Campbell (who also struggled, just as he has in his last 85 or so NHL games and just as he has continued to do in the AHL the last I saw) even though he knew better than to give Campbell starts in the playoffs when Skinner was struggling.

They took Skinner away from him about two games before he got fired by waiving him (that's the precursor to the a coach getting fired, much like Schneider about 2 weeks before Hynes was fired) but they were embarrassed by the Sharks the game after that, and that probably got him fired. He coached one last game on the road trip, which management likely spent those days banging things out with the Rangers and negotiating on plucking Knoblauch away from them.

They waived Campbell you mean. The Woodcroft/Knoblauch "success" story is one where it really might have just been Skinner suddenly finding his game, the goaltending getting fixed as a result and the coach wasn't the problem. Skinner was horrible to begin the year.