Fire Ken Holland: 2022-2023 edition

[barry halls]

My vote hasn’t changed. He’s just ‘ok’, and that might not be good enough to get Connor and Leon a cup. Other than the Kostin trade he hasn’t made a single trade where the cost doesn’t sting and you can call it a decisive win. The defense and goaltending still don’t look cup worthy, but I obviously hope to be proven wrong.

 

[Spawn]

We still firing this bum? I hear he stutters at press conferences which makes half our posters blow a gasket since he isn’t an eloquent speaker you know his commentary is up and down like a toilet seat but mostly down

Edit: in case it isn’t clear I am being sarcastic about the firing and really like what he did. Results matter more than how well he can speak

Just in regards to results mattering more than how well he speaks. I obviously agree.

But in his 4th year as GM this is now a 2nd year of regression. We are 6 points back of first in our division and Vegas has a game in hand. Yes we are 8 points up on 9th place, but that 9th place team has 4 games in hand on the Oilers.

The results aren't there with this team.

 

[MessierThanThou]

Just in regards to results mattering more than how well he speaks. I obviously agree.

But in his 4th year as GM this is now a 2nd year of regression. We are 6 points back of first in our division and Vegas has a game in hand. Yes we are 8 points up on 9th place, but that 9th place team has 4 games in hand on the Oilers.

The results aren't there with this team.

And that 9th place team is on a 2-game win streak that can easily become a 6-game streak, tying us with that 9th place team with the same number of games played. Very few people on here seem to realize how close we are to actually missing the playoffs because of Campbell's play. And this is all on Holland. Win or lose, this should be Holland's last year as GM. A f***ing expansion team in their second year is outperforming us, despite having the best player of our generation. And arguably the second best as well.

I think people are going easy on Holland because he's not as bad as Chiarelli, but Chiarelli is a legitimate contender for worst GM EVER. Just because Holland is performing better in comparison doesn't mean he's performing at a remotely acceptable level.

 

[Mr Positive]

Just in regards to results mattering more than how well he speaks. I obviously agree.

But in his 4th year as GM this is now a 2nd year of regression. We are 6 points back of first in our division and Vegas has a game in hand. Yes we are 8 points up on 9th place, but that 9th place team has 4 games in hand on the Oilers.

The results aren't there with this team.

I agree results being the measure.

However for me the results are all post season. Last season at the darkest points, I wanted him fired but I also said the decision should be made when the dust settled at the end of playoffs. So, I was happy to see Holland stay, and it looked like he did good over the summer. The Campbell signing has soured it somewhat but again, we will see what happens in the playoffs. If we do great with Campbell stapled to the bench, Holland still looks good.

 

[MessierThanThou]

I agree results being the measure.

However for me the results are all post season. Last season at the darkest points, I wanted him fired but I also said the decision should be made when the dust settled at the end of playoffs. So, I was happy to see Holland stay, and it looked like he did good over the summer. The Campbell signing has soured it somewhat but again, we will see what happens in the playoffs. If we do great with Campbell stapled to the bench, Holland still looks good.

You're speaking like we're guaranteed to make the playoffs. We aren't. And we're closer to missing the playoffs than you think, thanks in large part to Holland.

 

[Spawn]

I agree results being the measure.

However for me the results are all post season. Last season at the darkest points, I wanted him fired but I also said the decision should be made when the dust settled at the end of playoffs. So, I was happy to see Holland stay, and it looked like he did good over the summer. The Campbell signing has soured it somewhat but again, we will see what happens in the playoffs. If we do great with Campbell stapled to the bench, Holland still looks good.

The Oilers might not even make the playoffs if they continue the way they've been playing the past month or so.

 

[Mr Positive]

You're speaking like we're guaranteed to make the playoffs. We aren't. And we're closer to missing the playoffs than you think, thanks in large part to Holland.

I said it that way last year too, when we were much much closer to missing the playoffs than we are now. Judge on the playoffs, period. Missing the playoffs is the ultimate fail.

The Oilers might not even make the playoffs if they continue the way they've been playing the past month or so.

Highly unlikely with the Ekholm add and when Kane gets back, both here because of moves by Holland. Plus Bjugstad boosting the depth. We've even seen serious steps forward in our bottom six during the season

 

[MessierThanThou]

I said it that way last year too, when we were much much closer to missing the playoffs than we are now. Judge on the playoffs, period. Missing the playoffs is the ultimate fail.


Highly unlikely with the Ekholm add and when Kane gets back, both here because of moves by Holland. Plus Bjugstad boosting the depth. We've even seen serious steps forward in our bottom six during the season

The difference is that if Skinner goes down, we're 100% out. If Campbell plays another game or two, that could also keep us out. Koskinen and Smith were far, far more reliable than Campbell.

 

[Mr Positive]

The difference is that is Skinner goes down, we're 100% out. Koskinen and Smith were far more reliable than Campbell.

I agree that Holland has opened himself to this. We even have a situation to compare him to: LA. They didn't mess around with Petersen no matter how it looked. They had their Skinner type in Copely. At the deadline they added Korpisalo

Holland's approach might have been the right one. It allowed him to get a better D than LA got. So... we will judge Holland by how this all plays out

 

[guymez]

You're speaking like we're guaranteed to make the playoffs. We aren't. And we're closer to missing the playoffs than you think, thanks in large part to Holland.

The last stat I saw showed the team having an 85% chance of making the playoffs.

 

[MessierThanThou]

The last stat I saw showed the team having an 85% chance of making the playoffs.

How long ago was that? I don't see it staying at 85% if we keep playing Campbell.

 

[guymez]

How long ago was that? I don't see it staying at 85% if we keep playing Campbell.

That was right before the last game. They are going to make it but finishing in first would really help.

In any event...we probably agree that Skinner needs to play as many games as possible.

 

[Mr Positive]

How long ago was that? I don't see it staying at 85% if we keep playing Campbell.

Moneypuck has it as 94.8% chance today. There are only 2 teams outside the playoffs with any chance at making it: Calgary and Nashville. We are 8 and 9 points up on them and Nashville sold players. We could play Campbell every game and still make it

 

[AddyTheWrath]

Holland is an ok GM. Not worth some of the admiration and praise from the toxic positives and definitely not worth some of the vitriol and hate from the pessimists.

 

[MessierThanThou]

Moneypuck has it as 94.8% chance today. There are only 2 teams outside the playoffs with any chance at making it: Calgary and Nashville. We are 8 and 9 points up on them and Nashville sold players. We could play Campbell every game and still make it

We've played 64 games and have 76 points. Nashville has played 60 and has 68. In four games, they will be at 64 games played, and if they win all four, they will have tied us at 76 points with the same number of games played. Nashville is currently on a two-game win streak after selling those players...and they didn't just sell players, they gained some too, including Barrie.

Obviously I don't want the Oilers to miss the playoffs, but it's a little soon to be saying it's a sure thing, especially given Campbell's play.

 

[Mr Positive]

We've played 64 games and have 76 points. Nashville has played 60 and has 68. In four games, they will be at 64, and if they win all four, they will have tied us at 76 points with the same number of games played. Nashville is currently on a two-game win streak after selling those players...and they didn't just sell players, they gained some too, including Barrie.

That still looks like the kind of math we would do during the decade of darkness to cling to hope to make it. There's also the odds helping us the other way. There are odds that Calgary or Nashville get hot but also odds that teams around us get cold. Ie Colorado or Seattle. Will Minny stay hot?

Plus Bjugstad and Ekholm will only get better and better as they gain chemistry. We have Kane coming. It's just crazy likely that we make it

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

That still looks like the kind of math we would do during the decade of darkness to cling to hope to make it. There's also the odds helping us the other way. There are odds that Calgary or Nashville get hot but also odds that teams around us get cold. Ie Colorado or Seattle. Will Minny stay hot?

Plus Bjugstad and Ekholm will only get better and better as they gain chemistry. We have Kane coming. It's just crazy likely that we make it

"Crazy likely that we make playoffs" shouldn't be the bar for this team. The fact that there's even a reasonable risk of missing the playoffs with McDrai is absurd in and of itself and we have Jack Campbell to thank for that. This team's expectations as of year 8 of McDrai should be "threat to be champs" not "likely to make playoffs".

 

[Macblender]

Fair but I mean like besides the goaltending with a flat cap and the Kane injury etc our team actually looks fairly decent.

Do I wish we were higher in the standings yes but I think Seattle is a an absolute pretender and Campbell has probably pissed away like 6-10 games for us this season where we should realtistically be leading the conference fairly easy with reasonable goaltending.

Should we fault him for bringing in Campbell for sure! Bht like our goalie coach supposedly watched a ton of tape on Campbell and kuemper and stated he overwhelmingly recommended Campbell. So basically our one main goalie scout who is also the worst goalie coach in the league screwed us to a certain extent. His is the head I am calling for first

Edit: if holland doesn’t fire this bum after the season I would put a lot more of the goaltending on holland. It is only so easy to move a dead $5M contract with term in a flat cap world. Even if half this forum thinks they could do it for free and the other half would spend first to do it when there is better options (ie buyout)

 

[Mr Positive]

"Crazy likely that we make playoffs" shouldn't be the bar for this team. The fact that there's even a reasonable risk of missing the playoffs with McDrai is absurd in and of itself and we have Jack Campbell to thank for that. This team's expectations as of year 8 of McDrai should be "threat to be champs" not "likely to make playoffs".

I tend to think that a bigger reason why our regular seasons have been disappointments has been because of the defense. It seems all of our goalies let us down except that year of Talbot, but that year had Klefbom, Larsson, Nurse and Sekera playing at their best. Even with a positive story like Smith, he was crazy hot and cold and got just as much heat as Campbell at times.

So to me I put more blame on the D even with the bad goalie numbers, and getting Ekholm has changed the game. That last loss we had stung bad but I don't expect that to be the norm at all. This team will assert itself

 

[Trafalgar Sadge Law]

Fair but I mean like besides the goaltending with a flat cap and the Kane injury etc our team actually looks fairly decent.

Do I wish we were higher in the standings yes but I think Seattle is a an absolute pretender and Campbell has probably pissed away like 6-10 games for us this season where we should realtistically be leading the conference fairly easy with reasonable goaltending.

Should we fault him for bringing in Campbell for sure! Bht like our goalie coach supposedly watched a ton of tape on Campbell and kuemper and stated he overwhelmingly recommended Campbell. So basically our one main goalie scout who is also the worst goalie coach in the league screwed us to a certain extent. His is the head I am calling for first

I mean Holland has had 4 years with this f***wad and still hasn't identified him as a fraud that needs to be purged. That's a management error in and of itself. An error he shares with MacTavish/Chiarelli yes, but one that he still hasn't fixed. As far as I'm concerned the team needs to do an audit from above with a new CEO (Nicholson should be in jail not running a NHL team) and everybody who played a role in the signing of Jack Campbell needs to be evaluated. Anywhere from a stern talking-to for Zach Hyman to a kick out the door for Dustin Schwartz.

I tend to think that a bigger reason why our regular seasons have been disappointments has been because of the defense. It seems all of our goalies let us down except that year of Talbot, but that year had Klefbom, Larsson, Nurse and Sekera playing at their best.

So to me I put more blame on the D even with the bad goalie numbers, and getting Ekholm has changed the game. That last loss we had stung bad but I don't expect that to be the norm at all. This team will asset itself

I really don't think our defense is that bad. It's not great but it was an approximately league average defense that is probably slightly above league average now with Ekholm that is getting dragged down by Jack Campbell. We're in the upper half of the league in stuff like 5v5 CA/60, FA/60, xGA/60, top 10 in the league in SCA/60, and straight up top 5 in the league in HDCA/60. Only defensive stalwart teams like Carolina/Minnesota/New Jersey are conceding less high danger chances per minute than us. We're even a little ahead of Boston. That should be plenty to work with when our offense is the best in the league. Heck, when Skinner plays this is reflected in actual goals too. Skinner's GAA of 2.88 is comfortably lower than the league average goals per game of 3.17, and his save percentage of 0.912 is slightly above league average as well.

Jack Campbell is solely responsible for Jack Campbell's bad goalie numbers (okay Schwartz too). We even play tighter in front of this bum (lower 5v5 FA/60, lower xGA/60, lower SCA/60, lower HDCA/60, and have corresponding lower offensive metrics when Campbell plays) and he still can't get the job done. The eye test supports this too. Look how much the Oilers focus on limiting opposing shots to perimeter shots when Campbell plays, heck most of his goals against vs Winnipeg were perimeter shots (some tipped but still).

 

[MessierThanThou]

I tend to think that a bigger reason why our regular seasons have been disappointments has been because of the defense. It seems all of our goalies let us down except that year of Talbot, but that year had Klefbom, Larsson, Nurse and Sekera playing at their best. Even with a positive story like Smith, he was crazy hot and cold and got just as much heat as Campbell at times.

So to me I put more blame on the D even with the bad goalie numbers, and getting Ekholm has changed the game. That last loss we had stung bad but I don't expect that to be the norm at all. This team will assert itself

The D isn't why Campbell is bad. Skinner has a .912 with that same defense. Campbell is at .882.

 

[Macblender]

I mean Holland has had 4 years with this f***wad and still hasn't identified him as a fraud that needs to be purged. That's a management error in and of itself. An error he shares with MacTavish/Chiarelli yes, but one that he still hasn't fixed. As far as I'm concerned the team needs to do an audit from above with a new CEO (Nicholson should be in jail not running a NHL team) and everybody who played a role in the signing of Jack Campbell needs to be evaluated. Anywhere from a stern talking-to for Zach Hyman to a kick out the door for Dustin Schwartz.

I agree and it is time to correct it and I hope he does as this is the first time Schwartz has really gone to bat for a goalie with holland here to me that on top of systematically making every goalie worse should do it this off-season regardless of if we go far or not.

I don’t disagree at all I am willing to say that there will be misses in UFA but there were signs Campbell was crap before and we still had Schwartz go to bay that hard to sign him

 

[AddyTheWrath]

Our team is pretty f***ing good. Sick of some of the complaining here. Could things be better? Yes. Does the way the league is structured and the sport itself create an enormous amount of parity? Also yes.

Every team has players that underperform. Every team has holes that need fixing. Every team has nights where they look off or play down to the opposition.

We have made the playoffs in the past 3 years, and will make it again this year. I don’t give a f*** what happens in the regular season as long as we can go far once the games really matter.

 

[MessierThanThou]

I mean Holland has had 4 years with this f***wad and still hasn't identified him as a fraud that needs to be purged. That's a management error in and of itself. An error he shares with MacTavish/Chiarelli yes, but one that he still hasn't fixed. As far as I'm concerned the team needs to do an audit from above with a new CEO (Nicholson should be in jail not running a NHL team) and everybody who played a role in the signing of Jack Campbell needs to be evaluated. Anywhere from a stern talking-to for Zach Hyman to a kick out the door for Dustin Schwartz.

I can't agree more. Daryl Katz needs to stop caring about being friends with these losers and clean house!

 

[Mr Positive]

The D isn't why Campbell is bad. Skinner has a .912 with that same defense. Campbell is at .882.

I just pointed out that we have never really had a great regular season any year with McDavid. I was not blaming the defense for Campbell's problems. I just see the defense as the big factor with our team's regular season issues.