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Player Discussion Fire Dustin Schwartz

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Tarus said:
The Oilers do things like every other NHL franchise.

You can't cite even the well-regarded and successful GMs of the NHL without noting that their hiring is due to networking/old boys club stuff(Yzerman/Sakic). It's worse in the coaching ranks, and scouting ranks are straight up retirement jobs for former players and entry level jobs for non-playing friends/family.
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So when did Yzerman play for the Lightning then? It's fine to hire old buddies and whatnot if they're good at their job, not simply because they're your friends. Funny, I don't see teams lining up to hire Lowe or MacT in managerial positions.... Or anyone else we've hired in the past decade plus for that matter.

After decades of failure, I don't see how anyone can defend the way the Oilers run their organization. Especially not when it comes to this guy. He could be the nicest guy in the world, that doesn't make him any better at his job.
 
Oil Gauge said:
Curious as to why people link a goalies performance so strongly to their goalie coach. All goalies have a ceiling, they are all limited by their physical and mental limitations. Any goalie coach is only going to get so much out of Koskinen. Any goalie can only perform so well behind a poor defensive team.

The same people that want Schwartz fired should be furious that David Pelletier hasn't turned every Oiler player into the skater that McDavid is.
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B/c there has been plenty of young Oilers whose skating improved. Evan Bouchard is the latest example. He's still no Cale Makar but he went from a dude who was considered a weak skater even at the junior level to a guy whose probably only slightly below league average as a skater at this point and will likely get to average by his prime. Doesn't mean Pelletier was necessarily the reason for these players' improved skating but something is working. Meanwhile every goalie on this team has regressed without fail compared to other org and often improved after leaving us except Mike Smith who enlisted his own personal goalie.
 
Ritchie Valens said:
Having at least a bit of experience at any kind of pro level does though. I don't know about you, but I'd have pretty tough time having a guy with no experience higher than Junior/University telling me how to stop NHL stars, but that's just me.
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Ken Hitchcock, Scotty Bowman et al say hi.
 
KeithIsActuallyBad said:
So when did Yzerman play for the Lightning then? It's fine to hire old buddies and whatnot if they're good at their job, not simply because they're your friends. Funny, I don't see teams lining up to hire Lowe or MacT in managerial positions.... Or anyone else we've hired in the past decade plus for that matter.

After decades of failure, I don't see how anyone can defend the way the Oilers run their organization. Especially not when it comes to this guy. He could be the nicest guy in the world, that doesn't make him any better at his job.
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Yzerman was special assistant to Holland in Detroit with the intent that he was being groomed to take over the Red Wings GM position before the Lightning hired him. He was very much an old boys hire for the wings, he's just a successful example of it rather than a negative one.

Mact just got a job as an assistant coach despite being out of coaching for a decade, and a poor coach for the decade before that.

Lowe has had a nice high paying cushy retirement job. If he wanted a position elsewhere, he probably has the connections that he could have gone and got it.

It's not a defense of how the franchise is run btw. You have an idea that it should be run on merit like regular jobs for regular people where there are consistent consequences for poor performances, I'm saying that the reality of how franchises are operated in the NHL don't conform to those principals.
 
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KeithIsActuallyBad said:
Yeah and look how well that's working out for the Ducks.

As for Chiarelli, he's not the GM. He's a VP of Hockey Ops for the Blues. I don't imagine he has much input in what the team does.
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(EDIT: My bad, totally forgot that Chia was President of Hockey Operations here as well, so incorrect that he got a promotion) I'm not sure "Chiarelli got a promotion after his time in Edmonton" is really making the argument you think it is, though. Eakins was barely unemployed by Edmonton before becoming a coach again, even if in the AHL at first.

Important to note that this isn't exclusive to sports teams (though it's bad across all sports IMO). I work in tech and I've seen so many people with completely failed start ups consistently and reliably get VC funding for their next project again despite failing. I've gotten cynical enough that honestly it feels that failing as a CEO of a start up will still look good on your resume because someone will see "Oooo you've been a CEO of a tech company!?"
 
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alanschu said:
I'm not sure "Chiarelli got a promotion after his time in Edmonton" is really making the argument you think it is, though. Eakins was barely unemployed by Edmonton before becoming a coach again, even if in the AHL at first.

Important to note that this isn't exclusive to sports teams (though it's bad across all sports IMO). I work in tech and I've seen so many people with completely failed start ups consistently and reliably get VC funding for their next project again despite failing. I've gotten cynical enough that honestly it feels that failing as a CEO of a start up will still look good on your resume because someone will see "Oooo you've been a CEO of a tech company!?"
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It wouldn't really be a promotion.

He went from President of Hockey Ops and GM here to Vice President of Hockey Ops in St. Louis. He probably doesn't have a ton of input with Armstrong there as the GM and POHO.
 
McDNicks17 said:
It wouldn't really be a promotion.

He went from President of Hockey Ops and GM here to Vice President of Hockey Ops in St. Louis. He probably doesn't have a ton of input with Armstrong there as the GM and POHO.
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Ahhh fair enough my bad. I totally forgot that he had President of Hockey Operations title as well - just assumed he was a general manager. I see he interviewed for Chicago at one point.

But honestly I wouldn't be surprised if he is able to become a GM again.
 
Schwartz has coached Skinner for a long time and Skinner looks like a really well coached goalie to me. They spend all their summers together in the years skinner developed so I don't think the goalie coach is an issue.

Could also be that Skinner grew up watching the Oilers so he is specifically conditioned to expect horrific breakdowns in succession. He's been hardened mentally. As a MacTambLowe era Oilers fan, he likely developed a superhuman ability to shrug off gut wrenching despair
 
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Trafalgar Law said:
B/c there has been plenty of young Oilers whose skating improved. Evan Bouchard is the latest example. He's still no Cale Makar but he went from a dude who was considered a weak skater even at the junior level to a guy whose probably only slightly below league average as a skater at this point and will likely get to average by his prime. Doesn't mean Pelletier was necessarily the reason for these players' improved skating but something is working. Meanwhile every goalie on this team has regressed without fail compared to other org and often improved after leaving us except Mike Smith who enlisted his own personal goalie.
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Wasn't actually taking a shot at Pelletier. I like him a lot. Was just trying to make a point that when evaluating a specialized coach like Schwartz and Pelletier you need to look more at the process than the results. The Results are so often impacted by external factors that these coaches have no control over.

Any goalies performance is strongly impacted by the team in front of them. Edmonton's team defense has had very few bright spots over Schwartz's tenure. Id bet that if you cross referenced years that they had good team defense you will also find good goalie performances in those years. Poor defense doesn't only increase the quality of chances against, it also has a negative impact on a goalies confidence in the team in front of them. When you don't trust the team in front of you you tend to try to do things to make up for their shortcomings, which doesn't help.

Another thing that Schwartz can't control is the GM. How many promising goalie prospects has the GM brought to our team? Very few.

As for Smith using a different offseason goalie coach. This is very common. Most goalies train with a local coach during the offseason. Not a lot of goalies make Edmonton their summer home. The ones that do spend the summer in Edmonton and with Schwartz though are having a lot of success, Hart, Jarry, Skinner to name a few that have frequently trained with Schwartz over the summers.

I'm not saying that Schwartz is the best goalie coach in the league, I'm just saying that I don't think its fair to look at the results and pin them all on Schwartz. I like what I see when I watch Schwartz coach, I spend a lot of time in rinks and I see him coaching quite a bit and I think that he is very good at what he does. I would wager that the powers to be within the Oilers see the same thing that I do. Hence why he has been kept around by so many coaches and GM's.
 
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Oil Gauge said:
Wasn't actually taking a shot at Pelletier. I like him a lot. Was just trying to make a point that when evaluating a specialized coach like Schwartz and Pelletier you need to look more at the process than the results. The Results are so often impacted by external factors that these coaches have no control over.

Any goalies performance is strongly impacted by the team in front of them. Edmonton's team defense has had very few bright spots over Schwartz's tenure. Id bet that if you cross referenced years that they had good team defense you will also find good goalie performances in those years. Poor defense doesn't only increase the quality of chances against, it also has a negative impact on a goalies confidence in the team in front of them. When you don't trust the team in front of you you tend to try to do things to make up for their shortcomings, which doesn't help.

Another thing that Schwartz can't control is the GM. How many promising goalie prospects has the GM brought to our team? Very few.

As for Smith using a different offseason goalie coach. This is very common. Most goalies train with a local coach during the offseason. Not a lot of goalies make Edmonton their summer home. The ones that do spend the summer in Edmonton and with Schwartz though are having a lot of success, Hart, Jarry, Skinner to name a few that have frequently trained with Schwartz over the summers.

I'm not saying that Schwartz is the best goalie coach in the league, I'm just saying that I don't think its fair to look at the results and pin them all on Schwartz. I like what I see when I watch Schwartz coach, I spend a lot of time in rinks and I see him coaching quite a bit and I think that he is very good at what he does. I would wager that the powers to be within the Oilers see the same thing that I do. Hence why he has been kept around by so many coaches and GM's.
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Intelligent post. There's so much we don't see in that it is nay impossible to gage the quality of coaching being done. Add that Schwartz has been successful with young, developing goaltenders molding both Skinner and Carter Hart into NHL goaltenders. More nuanced and challenging I imagine is trying to work with deeply established goaltenders and trying to refine entrenched habits, styles and other engrained components of their games. This goes for a troika of Oilers 30+ guys, Smith, Koskinen and now Campbell.
 
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Behind Enemy Lines said:
Intelligent post. There's so much we don't see in that it is nay impossible to gage the quality of coaching being done. Add that Schwartz has been successful with young, developing goaltenders molding both Skinner and Carter Hart into NHL goaltenders. More nuanced and challenging I imagine is trying to work with deeply established goaltenders and trying to refine entrenched habits, styles and other engrained components of their games. This goes for a troika of Oilers 30+ guys, Smith, Koskinen and now Campbell.
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Don't forget Jarry. Schwartz was his coach with the Oil Kings where he won a Memorial cup. Jarry has continued to train with Schwartz in the off season ever since. Jarry makes Sherwood Park his offseason home, I believe his wife is from Edmonton.
 
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And he needs to go out the door with Jack Campbell. Not only is he a fraud of a goalie coach he also recommended the team to sign him. That alone is a fireable offense.
 
I'm not usually one to blame goalie coaching much but how many regimes has this guy survived now, seriously?

Does he have life altering dirt on the OBC and thus has secured his job forever?
 
Genuinely maybe this is his last year and Smith comes in next year. I also am assured that Smith and Campbell will have a Whiplash style tutelage
 
Gave Schwartz credit after the full equipment change for Campbell that seemed to bring him back to reasonable performance. I TAKE IT BACK NOW! Fire this bum :)
 
He needs to go, and we need new blood in this position. Who was the last Oiler goalie to exceed expectations? Smith? Oh and he had a different coach.
 
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