OT: Failure of a team, Failure of a rebuild

[Xspyrit]

Although I get why they decided not to, I absolutely "blame" Staios and Andlauer for not getting rid of Dorion and DJ immediately. I get the whole, "wait and see", don't rush anything, but how much time was needed to verify whatever they may have thought about our existing management? JM can't really be blamed for much. He's just trying to undo as much of the damage as he can at 71.

Timing.

Andlauer took control of the team on September 21st, too late to fire Dorion for that off-season... For appearances, they needed to wait for a convenient reason to fire Dorion and it came fast and ugly.

Same with DJ, too many young guys were in love with DJ, had to wait for the team to not meet expectations to have a reason to fire him and it still didn't go well with some players.

It was all a matter of timing, they were not in a position to fire everybody because of the team sale date.

 

[bicboi64]

Timing.

Andlauer took control of the team on September 21st, too late to fire Dorion for that off-season... For appearances, they needed to wait for a convenient reason to fire Dorion and it came fast and ugly.

Same with DJ, too many young guys were in love with DJ, had to wait for the team to not meet expectations to have a reason to fire him and it still didn't go well with some players.

This is what I don't get. Why on earth is management scared of upsetting the players or how they appear? We've absolutely sucked for years with existing management and had an 'eventful' offseason with Cat. I feel they had reasons galore, but then again, I don't know didly squat. Just being salty on the web lmao

 

[Cosmix]

We need a new coach by May so that he can set the culture for an entire summer prior to camp

That's too early. Before the draft day and Free Agency starting would provide the new coach an opportunity to influence the draft picks, UFA signings and trades.

 

[Xspyrit]

This is what I don't get. Why on earth is management scared of upsetting the players or how they appear? We've absolutely sucked for years with existing management and had an 'eventful' offseason with Cat. I feel they had reasons galore, but then again, I don't know didly squat. Just being salty on the web lmao

Don't forget the fanbase, the medias, the hockey world. A new ownership coming in at that date and then starting to clear deck just as training camp is about to begin is not a realistic scenario. They were stuck with DJ Dorion to start the season. I am thankful it didn't take that long to move on.

 

[Relapsing]

good of an interim coach is the responsiloty and the focus is entirely on the players, we know Jacques martin can coach in this market and he’s telling us we don’t have the right players to win - they aren’t learning fast enough, they repeat mistakes and are inconsistent.

if we hired a new coach full time he would have been the focus for change and culture and not the players. it’s good the focus is on the players because its clear now the core needs major changes and the love affair with this group of players is over

Yeah, pretty much. Bringing in an established, successful coach on an interim basis with this group has shown that, while DJ was part of the problem, he was only ever a part of it: Roster construction and player performance is clearly a part of why this Team continues to fail to meet expectations.

The failure of this team has afforded management more time to evaluate players, identify who they want to keep, target who they want to acquire, and determine what kind of coach they want to bring in.

I'll take a failed season this year if the result is gains next season. A loss of a season for us is likely perceived as a boon to management in regards to a number of factors.

 

[Micklebot]

I'd have been good as anyone as interim (even Gallant, even though the dude is notorious for limiting younger guys playing time).

You keep saying you hope Carolina get's bounced and parts ways with Brindamour. Don't do that, don't give me hope.

I mean, it's a super long shot. Berube seems like a really solid backup plan, Pens might part ways with Sullivan who I think would be ok, Cooper might be let go of TBay misses or gets bounced, Ruff isn't my favourite but would be a reasonable option. Interview all those guys in the offseason, and hire the best option

I don't think you get a lot of takers asking for someone to step in on an interim basis at or near the start of the year, so imo moving early of firing DJ would have limited our options big time and been damaging in the long run. If we were able to do the hiring back in May then have at it, but the sale process dragging out hurt our option, imo.

 

[bicboi64]

I mean, it's a super long shot. Berube seems like a really solid backup plan, Pens might part ways with Sullivan who I think would be ok, Cooper might be let go of TBay misses or gets bounced, Ruff isn't my favourite but would be a reasonable option. Interview all those guys in the offseason, and hire the best option

Berube, Ruff, Boudreau, etc... Tons of coaching talent available and if Rod the Bod, Sullivan, and Cooper are options, I'll be salivating.

 

[Micklebot]

Timing.

Andlauer took control of the team on September 21st, too late to fire Dorion for that off-season... For appearances, they needed to wait for a convenient reason to fire Dorion and it came fast and ugly.

Same with DJ, too many young guys were in love with DJ, had to wait for the team to not meet expectations to have a reason to fire him and it still didn't go well with some players.

It was all a matter of timing, they were not in a position to fire everybody because of the team sale date.

I don't think appearances have anything to do with it, I think they wanted to do their due diligence before making changes, see how much of past performance was due to the handcuffs associated with working under Melnyk, and dealing with a flawed/injured roster.

 

[Xspyrit]

Yeah, pretty much. Bringing in an established, successful coach on an interim basis with this group has shown that, while DJ was part of the problem, he was only ever a part of it: Roster construction and player performance is clearly a part of why this Team continues to fail to meet expectations.

Yes there is other factors but seriously, coaching and goaltending clearly have been the biggest problems, at least to me. Remember when I was talking about a turnaround in January? It was normal that it would take time for the new coaching staff to fix some bad habits/systems.

After January 13th :

14-11-4 (0.552 P%, 17th)
CF% : 52.50 (7th)
SF% : 53.49 (5th)
GF% : 47.28 (22nd)
xGF% : 55.45 (3rd)
xGF/60 : 3.30 (6th)
xGA/60 : 2.65 (2nd)
SV% : 88.16 (30th)

Before January 13th :

14-23-0 (0.378 P%, 29th)
CF% : 50.27 (18th)
SF% : 50.51 (15th)
GF% : 47.08 (25th)
xGF% : 49.83 (18th)
xGF/60 : 3.12 (14th)
xGA/60 : 3.14 (19th)
SV% : 88.37 (30th)

Before mid-January we were talking about a middling team getting shitty goaltending and now we talk about a pretty decent team getting shitty goaltending. The GF% didn't improve a lot despite considerably lowering the xGA/60

 

[Xspyrit]

I don't think appearances have anything to do with it, I think they wanted to do their due diligence before making changes, see how much of past performance was due to the handcuffs associated with working under Melnyk, and dealing with a flawed/injured roster.

ok but can you really imagine a realistic scenario where new ownership comes in and starts firing management and coaching staff on the first day of training camp?

I personally don't think it was technically possible. I don't think they would have been permitted to interview people for management/coaching as they were not officially owners.

Can't see a NHL team starting a season without management and coaching staff.

 

[Micklebot]

ok but can you really imagine a realistic scenario where new ownership comes in and starts firing management and coaching staff on the first day of training camp?

I personally don't think it was technically possible. I don't think they would have been permitted to interview people for management/coaching as they were not officially owners.

Can't see a NHL team starting a season without management and coaching staff.

Again, that's not an optics issue, it's a due diligence issue. They need to come in and assess what is working and what isn't, interview candidates, what until those candidates are available, ect.

All I'm saying is they didn't keep DJ and Dorion because of how fans or media would react,

 

[Xspyrit]

Correct me if I’m wrong, but his final contract, if I seem to remember, was after Ceci filed for Arbitration… but think they settled before actually going to arbitration…… on a one year contract, with Ceci still being a RFA after that contract…… so don’t know how he would have been able to “walk for nothing” while still being a RFA…. Wouldn’t the Senators own his rights and the two sides must come to an agreement on a new contract?

I'm not sure do whatever it takes to not get Zaitsev at 4.5 AAV for 5 years. Worst case scenario if you are FORCED to sign Ceci (was not an ideal position to be in, a classic Dorion), sign him for just 1 year.

If these two are superstars, how
do we classify the Kucherov's, McDavid's and Matthews of this league? Ultra super duper mega stars?

This is what I mean by overrating the players on this team, these guys are good but tons of teams in this league have players every bit as good as Brady and Stutzle.

McDavid is generational. He's in the Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr/Howe group.

Kucherov and Matthews are superstars.

Stutzle is an elite player.

Tkachuk is a star.

That would be my tiers regarding these players.

 

[bicboi64]

McDavid is generational. He's in the Gretzky/Lemieux/Orr/Howe group.

Kucherov and Matthews are superstars.

Not that I like giving out compliments, but Matthews is looking like a generational player, or at least generational goal scorer. His scoring rates are the same as Ovechkin's and he isn't slowing down

 

[Xspyrit]

Not that I like giving out compliments, but Matthews is looking like a generational player, or at least generational goal scorer. His scoring rates are the same as Ovechkin's and he isn't slowing down

His scoring rates are actually better than Ovechkin. Yeah, I called Matthews a generational goal scorer on the main boards but he's not as generational overall as Crosby or Ovechkin for example.

I even made a thread asking people to predict how many goals Matthews would score in his career. I voted 800+

 

[Xspyrit]

Again, that's not an optics issue, it's a due diligence issue. They need to come in and assess what is working and what isn't, interview candidates, what until those candidates are available, ect.

All I'm saying is they didn't keep DJ and Dorion because of how fans or media would react,

It's not really what I am saying, it's just a factor. What I am saying is the other things I have said, all points were clear.

 

[bicboi64]

His scoring rates are actually better than Ovechkin. Yeah, I called Matthews a generational goal scorer on the main boards but he's not as generational overall as Crosby or Ovechkin for example.

I even made a thread asking people to predict how many goals Matthews would score in his career. I voted 800+

May he score his 400th-800th in a different uniform, or if its with the leafs, may he have never reached the cup finals and hopefully we'll be done our rebuild by then lol

 

[Micklebot]

It's not really what I am saying, it's just a factor. What I am saying is the other things I have said, all points were clear.

I mean, you said "for appearances, they needed to wait for a convenient reason to fire Dorion", imo that wasn't a factor, that's all I'm saying.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

This.

Hiring an interim coach was an incredibly dumb decision. A new coach next year means another reset and starting from scratch again. The new coach should be behind the bench right now to assess what he has and what he wants for next year (IE who needs to get the f out of there).

Have been saying this since the last week of December……

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Why do people think coaches can't assess and correct issues if they are hired in the offseason?

The Best Case Scenario, the Rookie GM should have hired the best Available Candidate in Mid December as the New Head coach.

This way the team and everyone knows he would be around for at least a few years, and he could have started his restructuring of the team’s systems right away….. this would have given him the rest of the season to see who buys into his system and who does not, and could have worked with the management through the entirety of the offseason giving up close and personal feedback.

Now by bringing in J Martin, only for the rest of season, and everyone knows it, the next coach begins from scratch at training camp, instead of having 57 games with the players already under his belt.

The next coach is likely still employed and focused on the team he works for, and is not seriously looking at the Senators this season.

good of an interim coach is the responsiloty and the focus is entirely on the players, we know Jacques martin can coach in this market and he’s telling us we don’t have the right players to win - they aren’t learning fast enough, they repeat mistakes and are inconsistent.

if we hired a new coach full time he would have been the focus for change and culture and not the players. it’s good the focus is on the players because its clear now the core needs major changes and the love affair with this group of players is over

Can you, or anyone else remember a similar decision, when a coach was fired, and an interim was brought in only for the remainder of the season, with no possibility of returning as the head coach the following season?

 

[Micklebot]

The Best Case Scenario, the Rookie GM should have hired the best Available Candidate in Mid December as the New Head coach.

This way the team and everyone knows he would be around for at least a few years, and he could have started his restructuring of the team’s systems right away….. this would have given him the rest of the season to see who buys into his system and who does not, and could have worked with the management through the entirety of the offseason giving up close and personal feedback.

Now by bringing in J Martin, only for the rest of season, and everyone knows it, the next coach begins from scratch at training camp, instead of having 57 games with the players already under his belt.

The next coach is likely still employed and focused on the team he works for, and is not seriously looking at the Senators this season.

Actually, by hiring an interim in a lost season, he he gave a chance for other candidates to become available and for him to interview all of them and select the best option instead of rushing into things to try and save face.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

I mean, it's a super long shot. Berube seems like a really solid backup plan, Pens might part ways with Sullivan who I think would be ok, Cooper might be let go of TBay misses or gets bounced, Ruff isn't my favourite but would be a reasonable option. Interview all those guys in the offseason, and hire the best option

I don't think you get a lot of takers asking for someone to step in on an interim basis at or near the start of the year, so imo moving early of firing DJ would have limited our options big time and been damaging in the long run. If we were able to do the hiring back in May then have at it, but the sale process dragging out hurt our option, imo.

Don’t know if it happened, but the rookie GM should have made an offer to Berube in December…. Not many Head Coach openings at the time…..

Come the off season, Berube might have more options…. Pittsburgh , Hurricanes, Tampa, Montreal and maybe the Leafs… depending on how the playoff cookie crumbles….. do you think Berube would choose Ottawa over any of those other openings?

 

[Micklebot]

Don’t know if it happened, but the rookie GM should have made an offer to Berube in December…. Not many Head Coach openings at the time…..

Come the off season, Berube might have more options…. Pittsburgh , Hurricanes, Tampa, Montreal and maybe the Leafs… depending on how the playoff cookie crumbles….. do you think Berube would choose Ottawa over any of those other openings?

I guess we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Crosside]

Don’t know if it happened, but the rookie GM should have made an offer to Berube in December…. Not many Head Coach openings at the time…..

Come the off season, Berube might have more options…. Pittsburgh , Hurricanes, Tampa, Montreal and maybe the Leafs… depending on how the playoff cookie crumbles….. do you think Berube would choose Ottawa over any of those other openings?

Good things, I take all this coach you name the city over Berube

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Actually, by hiring an interim in a lost season, he he gave a chance for other candidates to become available and for him to interview all of them and select the best option instead of rushing into things to try and save face.

There is a difference between hiring an interim coach who also may be considered for the full time position and an interim for 57 games only and zero chance at becoming the full time coach next season.

In December there were candidates like Roy, Beriberi and a few others and only The Sens looking for a new coach… in the offseason there will be opening available for the coaches on the market to choose from…. And am thinking Ottawa is the last chair in the musical coaches chairs game in the off-season…

 

[LevelingSolo]

Berube, Ruff, Boudreau, etc... Tons of coaching talent available and if Rod the Bod, Sullivan, and Cooper are options, I'll be salivating.

Would like any of those guy's save for maybe Ruff

You just know though that they're gonna hire Gruden, Mckee or same random rookie coach