Player Discussion Evan Bouchard

[guymez]

Agreed, but is there a single person that if they could create an all star line to defend a 1 goal lead with 1 minute left in the game, would have current Norris trophy winner karlsson on the ice?

I agree.
Although Karlsson was arguably the best player on his team at the time. That skews things a little.

 

[JordanGalhanth]

All of you bickering over an 80 POINT DEFENSEMAN need to go back and watch that Decade of Darkness documentary. If we had present day Bouchard in 2012-2016, we'd see him as the best thing since Pronger.

Seriously, good on him for taking the next step. Hopefully we can keep him.

 

[McDNicks17]

All of you bickering over an 80 POINT DEFENSEMAN need to go back and watch that Decade of Darkness documentary. If we had present day Bouchard in 2012-2016, we'd see him as the best thing since Pronger.

Seriously, good on him for taking the next step. Hopefully we can keep him.

Who needs Bouchard when you've got the Corey Power Potter Play?

 

[guymez]

cause he never had close to 80 points, despite playing on the best PP in the league

Bouchard has been better than Barrie in terms of PP points.
No doubt.
My point is that if you are going to use PP points as a determining factor in evaluating a dman for the Norris consideration then dont you also have to consider that the exisiting PP (before Bochard was the point man) was in large part driving that point production or do you just dismiss that all together?

Like I said, you've got your Oilers goggles on. The Oilers aren't the only team in the league with a good PP. Tampa has a great PP, New York has a great PP, Colorado has a great PP. Vancouver has a good PP. Guys that lead the league in PP points tend to play on good PPs.

Barrie played less, had significantly worse defensive metrics and didn't score anything close to Bouchard at 5v5. Just to illustrate the difference in metrics, Barrie was 160th in xGF% for defenseman that year. Bouchard is 1st this year.

The Oilers dont just have a good PP...they have and have had one of the best best PP's in NHL history.
That has nothing to do with Oilers goggles...its just a fact.

That fact should matter IMO.

 

[Fourier]

What I am suggesting is that on this particular PP (one of the best in the League) why should PP points be a determining factor for Norris voting?
Especially when it was one of the best in the League prior to Bouchard being the point man.
Barrie put up massive points on the PP as well. His analytics were good too...why no Norris consideration?


What?

For Norris voting is the key phrase here. More specifically what factors tend to correlate with Norris voting. The guys who vote don't sit down and analyze film to see who is the best actual defenseman whatever that means. I would argue that the first factor that impacts votes is reputation and existing bias. This hurts Bouchard since I suspect many still think he is tire fire in his own end because that narrative gets repeated ad nauseum. After that many voters will go to the stats pages. Offensive numbers play a significant role here. Then some will look at stats available on sites like Natural Stat Trick. For those who do Bouchard's numbers are again elite this year. Some will look at proprietary numbers form place like Sportlogiq and again Bouchard comes out looking very good this year. How many voters fall into each category will impact his vote totals.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Bouchard has been better than Barrie in terms of PP points.
No doubt.
My point is that if you are going to use PP points as a determining factor in evaluating a dman for the Norris consideration then dont you also have to consider that the exisiting PP (before Bochard was the point man) was in large part driving that point production or do you just dismiss that all together?


The Oilers dont just have a good PP...they have and have had one of the best best PP's in NHL history.
That has nothing to do with Oilers goggles...its just a fact.

That fact should matter IMO.

Voters won’t be putting nearly that much thought into it.

And every player would get punished then, they all play on powerplays with very good players, we’d end up at the exact same spot.

 

[McDNicks17]

The Oilers dont just have a good PP...they have and have had one of the best best PP's in NHL history.
That has nothing to do with Oilers goggles...its just a fact.

That fact should matter IMO.

The thing you continue to struggle with is we're talking about this through the lens of a PHWA voter.

Do you think Jim Matheson is doing a deep dive into Colorado's PP to see what it was like pre-Makar when he's voting for the Norris? Do you think Joe Blow from Miami is doing the same for the Oilers?

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Bouchard has been better than Barrie in terms of PP points.
No doubt.
My point is that if you are going to use PP points as a determining factor in evaluating a dman for the Norris consideration then dont you also have to consider that the exisiting PP (before Bochard was the point man) was in large part driving that point production or do you just dismiss that all together?

sure but Bouchard is also top 5 in ES scoring....meaning he's scoring at both game states

dismissing his PP points because it was good before he got on it (which btw, isn't nearly as good as previous record-breaking years) is silly

 

[guymez]

sure but Bouchard is also top 5 in ES scoring....meaning he's scoring at both game states

dismissing his PP points because it was good before he got on it (which btw, isn't nearly as good as previous record-breaking years) is silly

I am not dismissing his PP points. I am suggesting that playing on the best PP in NHL history skews that production in his favor.

That aside...whats the difference between Bouchards 5x5 point production and Ekholms 5x5 point production?

 

[PositiveCashFlow]

Who needs Bouchard when you've got the Corey Power Potter Play?

Corey Power Perry Play

 

[guymez]

The thing you continue to struggle with is we're talking about this through the lens of a PHWA voter.

Do you think Jim Matheson is doing a deep dive into Colorado's PP to see what it was like pre-Makar when he's voting for the Norris? Do you think Joe Blow from Miami is doing the same for the Oilers?

Okay...like I have said multiple times now.
Lets wait and see how the votes play out.

Is that something you can agree to do?

 

[McDNicks17]

Okay...like I have said multiple times now.
Lets wait and see how the votes play out.

Is that something you can agree to do?

I thought that's where we were at, but then you brought up the PP thing haha.

 

[guymez]

I thought that's where we were at, but then you brought up the PP thing haha.

LOL

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

I am not dismissing his PP points. I am suggesting that playing on the best PP in NHL history skews that production in his favor.

couldn't you say the same with Makar and the Avs? their PP was good too before he got there (8th in 2017-18 and 7th in 2018-19)

That aside...whats the difference between Bouchards 5x5 point production and Ekholms 5x5 point production?

5 points, you suggesting Ekholm could score 80 points on this PP?

 

[Aerchon]

Just to chime in on the Karlsson topic.

There is no better example of a much worse defender, defensively, who wins a Norris that Bouchard is currently significantly better than in pretty every meaningful way.

Karlsson has a couple amazing years but is a defenseman I don't touch with a ten foot pole. Many wanted Karlsson here at any cost and Bouchard is currently head and shoulders better. At 24 years old the potential for Bouchard is amazing and a Norris not outrageous in his future.

 

[Aerchon]

Funny thing bud is Hedman put up 49 points last year while nursing an injury and not being on the PP with kucherov. That was Sergachev

I'm done with this argument because you guys are being delusional. I never said Bouchard is bad. He is a good player. I said he needs to stop his bone head turnovers. The intelligent posters here have acknowledged this.

I'm trying to humble you guys by saying he is not a top 10 defenceman in the NHL. He isn't even the best on the team.

Do you guys just argue whoever you want in life for no reason?

There is more basic information to say Bouchard is a top 5 defender than isn't. I am not so arrogant to arbitrarily say he is 100% top anything. But I think there is a good argument for a top 5/10 defender and you are trying to paint a picture that he isn't even close.

McDavid is the most skilled player ever IMO but I am not sure he is a great 2 way player period. Doesn't change that he is widely considered the best player...

Bouchard is a great defenseman, warts and all. A rising star in this league. In a very elite group. At the very top of defensemen in this league. Somehow Im guessing you cant say or type that in.

You cant marry how much his offense overcomes his defensive lapses and cant in any unbias way recognize that his are similar to many other great defensemen. The GOAT made mistakes. I watched Nuge make Lidstrom look like a scrub in his rookie year.

You need to watch more games from others as well as Bouchard and get a better perspective on his mistakes and how easily he impacts the game in a massively positive way.

 

[Whoshattenkirkshoes]

There is more basic information to say Bouchard is a top 5 defender than isn't. I am not so arrogant to arbitrarily say he is 100% top anything. But I think there is a good argument for a top 5/10 defender and you are trying to paint a picture that he isn't even close.

McDavid is the most skilled player ever IMO but I am not sure he is a great 2 way player period. Doesn't change that he is widely considered the best player...

Bouchard is a great defenseman, warts and all. A rising star in this league. In a very elite group. At the very top of defensemen in this league. Somehow Im guessing you cant say or type that in.

You cant marry how much his offense overcomes his defensive lapses and cant in any unbias way recognize that his are similar to many other great defensemen. The GOAT made mistakes. I watched Nuge make Lidstrom look like a scrub in his rookie year.

You need to watch more games from others as well as Bouchard and get a better perspective on his mistakes and how easily he impacts the game in a massively positive way.

He's not even the Oilers best D man .

So if Bouchard is a top 5 d in this league. You'd take him in the playoffs over Q. Hughes, Makar, Josi, Heiskanen, Mcavoy?

 

[Whoshattenkirkshoes]

Much of this discussion is about the Norris trophy not some absolute ranking of defensemen. The voting for the Norris is highly skewed towards a combination of offensive statistics and other things like possession stats because many people who vote on the awards may have very little opportunity to watch the players outside their home region. Regardless of how he is viewed Bouchard is having an elite year in terms of both his offensive production and his defensive metrics. While Barrie did lead the league in points by a defenseman, he was never close to elite in any other metric while with Edmonton.

I started the discussion by saying he has to stop his brain dead turnovers. Then people said he's on Makar and Hughes level (which he isn't) then I guess you guys directed the conversation to Norris Voting.

Bouchard will come in at 4th or 5th in Norris Voting and we already know this so who cares. Waste of discussion.

We should care about Stanley cups, not dumb awards

He is a good offensive D man who needs to stop turning the puck over and making stupid plays

 

[Tobias Kahun]

I started the discussion by saying he has to stop his brain dead turnovers. Then people said he's on Makar and Hughes level (which he isn't) then I guess you guys directed the conversation to Norris Voting.

Bouchard will come in at 4th or 5th in Norris Voting and we already know this so who cares. Waste of discussion.

We should care about Stanley cups, not dumb awards

He is a good offensive D man who needs to stop turning the puck over and making stupid plays

You should see the turnover Hughes made last night and his attempt to play defense on a kempe SHG.

You watch these guys more than everyone, so I’m sure you’ve already seen it

 

[Bryanbryoil]

The Norris is supposed to be awarded to the best overall defenceman.
The wording IIRC is the greatest all around ability in the position.


Come on.
You know what I am saying here.
Its pretty clear that Bouchards offence is driven by the best PP in the NHL.
The very same PP that Barrie used to load up his point toals.

Again I ask...why wasnt Barrie consdiered a Norris candidate?

And that's the problem right there. You are rightfully going by "the letter of the law", while the voters make shit up as they go and vote how they want to. Just like if Matthews hits 70 goals this year he wins the Hart over Connor and MacKinnon when the reality is that he isn't as good of a player as either of those 2 and both likely have 30+ points more than he does at seasons end. He rightfully should win the Richard and is clearly the best goalscorer of this generation, but he is not the best player in the league or the most important player to his team relative to the other players on their teams.

I 100% agree that there should be an award for best defensive defenseman and best offensive defenseman and then use the Norris to go to the best overall D as it was intended to.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Funny thing bud is Hedman put up 49 points last year while nursing an injury and not being on the PP with kucherov. That was Sergachev

I'm done with this argument because you guys are being delusional. I never said Bouchard is bad. He is a good player. I said he needs to stop his bone head turnovers. The intelligent posters here have acknowledged this.

I'm trying to humble you guys by saying he is not a top 10 defenceman in the NHL. He isn't even the best on the team.

Do you guys just argue whoever you want in life for no reason?

lol, calling everyone who doesn’t agree with you stupid.

 

[guymez]

couldn't you say the same with Makar and the Avs? their PP was good too before he got there (8th in 2017-18 and 7th in 2018-19)

Well...there is a distinct diffference between the best PP in NHL history and a 'good' PP.

5 points, you suggesting Ekholm could score 80 points on this PP?

The more Ekholm the better IMO.

 

[Faelko]

I hate the fact the PHWA gets to vote on anything, those guys all have their own agenda. Maybe the teams should be required to have a “Voting Committee” that’s made up of their pro scouts and analytics people and submit their picks. The caveat being they can’t vote for their own players. Maybe that’s dumb but it has to be better than letting those clowns pick.

 

[Broberg Speed]

lol, calling everyone who doesn’t agree with you stupid.

hypocrite much ? don't worry you're like number 4 on the Bouchard cult train guilty of this

 

[guymez]

And that's the problem right there. You are rightfully going by "the letter of the law", while the voters make shit up as they go and vote how they want to. Just like if Matthews hits 70 goals this year he wins the Hart over Connor and MacKinnon when the reality is that he isn't as good of a player as either of those 2 and both likely have 30+ points more than he does at seasons end. He rightfully should win the Richard and is clearly the best goalscorer of this generation, but he is not the best player in the league or the most important player to his team relative to the other players on their teams.

I 100% agree that there should be an award for best defensive defenseman and best offensive defenseman and then use the Norris to go to the best overall D as it was intended to.

Perhaps there should be a catagory for the best offensive dman and a separate catagory for the best all around dman.
Just like what @Hockeylife2018 suggested.

That might be better.

In any event there has been too much time spent on this topic for me anyway. The good thing is that the more I talk about it the more I realize that I dont really care.

Ultimately (the more I think about this) if Bouchard becomes a legit Norris candidate or not...does it really matter?
From a team perspective it only matters (if he were to win) because it influences how much cap space Bouchard ends up taking up. It becomes contract negotiation leverage.
So in terms of the Cap winning an indivdual award in some cases ultimately becomes a negative anyway.

Regarding any other individual awards....

If Connor wins the Art Ross...fine.
If he doesnt....thats fine too.
If Desharnais wins the Masterton trophy...good for him. If he doesnt...oh well.
If Bouchard gets some Norris votes...fine. If he doesnt thats fine too.
Looking back I dont really care about Skinner getting some Calder consideration.

I mean in the grand scheme of things (in terms of what really matters with this team) why do we care so much about this?
Its a question I have recently (thanks to this discussion) come to a conclusion on.
I dont really give a shit.

The players on this team can win as many indivudual awards as they want and it really doesnt mean anything.
A Stanley Cup is all I really care about...the rest is window dressing.