Player Discussion Evan Bouchard

[Connor McConnor]

People acting like it’s not common for an offensive d man to need a defensively responsible partner to fully utilize their skillset as if this hasn’t been common knowledge for all of Hockey.

 

[Fourier]

Its pretty simple really.
The sample size is too small but by virtue of what I have seen so far it suggests that Bouchard has not been at the level of what I would expect a Norris caliber dman to be.
Especially away from Ekholm. I need to see more.
Thats really the entire focus of this conversation.

Is it your claim that Bouchard is a worthy Norris candidate right now?

The claim I responded to was this:

We have had glimpses of what Bouchard is like without Ekholm and it hasnt been pretty.

I am not arguing that Bouchard is Norris quality right now simply that the "not pretty" part does not agree with what happened on the ice. And while I agree that the data set is limited, the sample size is not all that small. It amounts to about the equivalent time frame of 16-18 games. Though based on historical voting patterns his season deserves consideration for the Norris. But my guess is that he won't get all that many votes because the "all offense no defense" narrative is pretty widely held.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

This generation's Sergi Gonchar.

Fantastic offensive talent and vision; and even if he isn't an amazing skater, he can still drive the play with the best of them.

He can play competent defence (most of the time), but commits the most brain-dead errors far more often than he should. If anything, the fact that he often looks sound defensively is what makes the lazy errors even more infuriating.

Things like this look familiar, no?

He lost more battles because he chose to not even try and engage vs. being outmuscled on a play.

 

[Whoshattenkirkshoes]

Says who? Your eye test since you watch them so close?

For being better you'd think that Hedman wouldnt get killed by Bouchard in every analytic and result possible
5on5
Hedman
17:24 toi/gp
64.16 cf/60
59.46 ca/60
30.64 sf/60
30.78 sa/60
3.21 gf/60
2.65 ga/60
2.81 xGF/60
2.9 xGA/60
30.26 scf/60
27.98 sca/60
12.48 hdcf/60
11.64 hdca/60

Bouchard
17:56 toi/gp
72 cf/60
47.24 ca/60
38.05 sf/60
24.76 sa/60
3.84 gf/60
2.41 ga/60
3.72 xGF/60
2.24 xGA/60
37.52 scf/60
23.15 sca/60
16.5 hdcf/60
9.14 hdca/60









It's almost like Bouchard has gotten better as hes progressed in his career.

Away from Ekholm his stats this year are still amazing.

So if every Hockey manager/executive/scout would take Hedman over Bouchard you are still somehow correct? They laugh at the question.

All of Bouchard's stats are hyped because he plays on the Oilers. You realize if you did this same thing with Barrie before he left Edmonton it would look similar?

And where is Tyson Barrie now? He has been a healthy scratch this year.....

 

[Whoshattenkirkshoes]

This generation's Sergi Gonchar.

Fantastic offensive talent and vision; and even if he isn't an amazing skater, he can still drive the play with the best of them.

He can play competent defence (most of the time), but commits the most brain-dead errors far more often than he should. If anything, the fact that he often looks sound defensively is what makes the lazy errors even more infuriating.

Things like this look familiar, no?

He lost more battles because he chose to not even try and engage vs. being outmuscled on a play.

This is my point EXCACTLY

Somehow Oilers fans think he's a top 5 d men in the league

 

[guymez]

The Norris trophy is awarded based on a players play in one season is it not?

How Bouchard looked in the 1st half of his sophomore season when he wasn't on the PP unit and was still finding his place in the NHL is 100% irrelevant to the discussion as to if he is having a Norris caliber season.

Here is the reality for this season:
Bouchard's numbers are elite.
Across the board.
With or without Ekholm

Nothing else is relevant to a discussion. Frankly, the without Ekholm bit is also irrelevant. As if a d-man can only with a Norris if they aren't paired with a great partner. If that mattered, than Makar better give back his Norris trophy, because his d-partner finished 9th in Norris voting that same season. Lidstrom is going to need to give back like 5 of em.

Thats correct. Just one season.
If you go back and look at my posts on Bouchard I just dont think that his all around game this season is Norris caliber.
Especially away from Ekholm.

I have seen posts on here that actually suggest Bouchard is carrying Ekholm.
Ridiculous.

 

[McDNicks17]

So if every Hockey manager/executive/scout would take Hedman over Bouchard you are still somehow correct? They laugh at the question.

All of Bouchard's stats are hyped because he plays on the Oilers. You realize if you did this same thing with Barrie before he left Edmonton it would look similar?

And where is Tyson Barrie now? He has been a healthy scratch this year.....

Which apparently only happens on the Oilers? haha

If only Hedman had a decent team and someone that could score some points with him there...

 

[Aerchon]

I've followed Bouchard's career including before he entered the NHL. I've stated this enough times. So it doesn't matter if I ever mention it again.

Even with the notable flaws in his junior game I thought he was going to be the next Al MacInnis.

I wish Evan Bouchard would play better hockey. Because he's not remotely close to what I thought he might be. Not even close.

He's improved his overall game a little this season but not nearly enough. The player as of today is an offensive defenseman with his overall game being hot garbage.

Q Hughes is pretty close or on Makar's level. He has actually taken huge steps this year.

Q. Hughes is better defensively than Makar.

Go watch like 10 full nucks games

He's 24 with over 300 pro games so not sure you can still call him very young. I mean that only from the standpoint of of organic growth being automatic just by getting in more games. Makar kind of looks the same as at 23. Coffey and MacInnis were their prime versions by 23 even if they were yet to have their peak scoring seasons. How much better is Darnell defensively then he was a couple of years ago? EB could become somewhat better defensively but that isn't for sure IMO.

Now if he is a 90pt defenseman who cares that he isn't defensively gifted so long as he can dial back Bobby Orr a bit in the playoffs? We saw plenty of burnt Coffey and the club was winning Cups with that. I think he will be a better than a ppg D man for years and that is a huge net value. My concern with him is, offensive numbers generally cost more to sign and will he provide sufficient value to justify having less to spend on Connor and Leon? The most valuable D on this team is Ekholm and he isn't $9M+. I am not saying they need to run out and trade Bouchard but the cap ramifications significant.

When Makar is on I completely agree. He hasn't been very impressive in either of our meetings with Colorado so far this season though IMO.

Well....below is the definition of the Norris trophy. I dont think Bouchard qualifies,
Not yet anyway.

The James Norris Memorial Trophy, or simply the Norris Trophy, is awarded annually to the National Hockey League's top "defense player who demonstrates throughout the season the greatest all-round ability in the position"

James Norris Memorial Trophy - Wikipedia

I do agree that Bouchard is more reliable than Nurse though.

I think that Bouchard is more like Tyson Barrie. An excellent offensive dman who can play top minutes (part time) but has defensive deficiencies.

As mentioned Hughes has been great THIS year. Last year Makar looked on another level and significantly less this year. In my limited viewing both are great but still young and lacking consistency. Defensemen often don't develop linear and it often takes them to age 28 to hit their peak. Bouchard is no different.

All these defensemen are young relatively speaking and have amazing potential but will likely have ups and downs before truly hitting their stride.

The Norris is primarily a points only trophy cant believe people don't understand that. This is a fact IMO.

Ryan Whitney is a brain dead Oilers hating scrub. It's best to just ignore someone that useless/lame.

Dobson, Bouchard, Makar, Dahlin, and Hughes might be some others I am forgetting but right now I see this group as the new generation of elite star defensemen. It's great to see so many new young star defensemen hitting the league hard. Bouchard is clearly, by draft pedigree, by current play, by most metrics among this elite grouping.

If you are an Oiler fan, or even just a hockey fan, and not extremely happy with Bouchards play and potential IMO you have an agenda adjacent to reality. Say... Angry that a far inferior player... like say Broberg... who never had the elite draft potential that Bouchard did... isnt developing as well as hoped... So lashing out per say. Just as an example :-P

 

[guymez]

The claim I responded to was this:


I am not arguing that Bouchard is Norris quality right now simply that the "not pretty" part does not agree with what happened on the ice. And while I agree that the data set is limited, the sample size is not all that small. It amounts to about the equivalent time frame of 16-18 games. Though based on historical voting patterns his season deserves consideration for the Norris. But my guess is that he won't get all that many votes because the "all offense no defense" narrative is pretty widely held.

Okay.
Poor wording on my part. Should have read...it should have read...hasnt been at a level high enough to be considered Norris worthy.
That aside...the sample size away from Ekholm is too small to be of muchh value.

 

[guymez]

As mentioned Hughes has been great THIS year. Last year Makar looked on another level and significantly less this year. In my limited viewing both are great but still young and lacking consistency. Defensemen often don't develop linear and it often takes them to age 28 to hit their peak. Bouchard is no different.

All these defensemen are young relatively speaking and have amazing potential but will likely have ups and downs before truly hitting their stride.

The Norris is primarily a points only trophy cant believe people don't understand that. This is a fact IMO.

Ryan Whitney is a brain dead Oilers hating scrub. It's best to just ignore someone that useless/lame.

Dobson, Bouchard, Makar, Dahlin, and Hughes might be some others I am forgetting but right now I see this group as the new generation of elite star defensemen. It's great to see so many new young star defensemen hitting the league hard. Bouchard is clearly, by draft pedigree, by current play, by most metrics among this elite grouping.

If you are an Oiler fan, or even just a hockey fan, and not extremely happy with Bouchards play and potential IMO you have an agenda adjacent to reality. Say... Angry that a far inferior player... like say Broberg... who never had the elite draft potential that Bouchard did... isnt developing as well as hoped... So lashing out per say. Just as an example :-P

I am extremely happy with Bouchards offence. I have sadi as much multiple times.
I just dont think that his defence is Norris worthy this season. I strongly suspect that the voting members will see things the same way.

This generation's Sergi Gonchar.

Fantastic offensive talent and vision; and even if he isn't an amazing skater, he can still drive the play with the best of them.

He can play competent defence (most of the time), but commits the most brain-dead errors far more often than he should. If anything, the fact that he often looks sound defensively is what makes the lazy errors even more infuriating.

Things like this look familiar, no?

He lost more battles because he chose to not even try and engage vs. being outmuscled on a play.

Yes.
Exactly.

 

[guymez]

This is my point EXCACTLY

Somehow Oilers fans think he's a top 5 d men in the league

He just isnt a top 5 dman in this League.
He might be one day but he sure isnt at this point in time.

As it stands right now...is he even in the top 10?

 

[Aerchon]

This is my point EXCACTLY

Somehow Oilers fans think he's a top 5 d men in the league

He is currently top 3... In scoring and while that obviously isn't everything... strangely... this is being slept on. Slept on to a large extent. 24 year old top 3 scoring defenseman in the league.

Very weird.

His defensive warts are also being exaggerated a bit as well.

Klefbom, as a quick example, was a complete disaster defensively before turning it around later in his career and less than half the overall talent as well.

 

[McDNicks17]

I am extremely happy with Bouchards offence. I have sadi as much multiple times.
I just dont think that his defence is Norris worthy this season. I strongly suspect that the voting members will see things the same way.

I could see it being much less of a factor just because of who he's competing with. Oddsmakers have the top 4 as Hughes, Makar, Josi and Bouchard right now. You aren't going to confuse any of them for stalwart defenders.

You'd have to go all the way down to Heiskanen or McAvoy for guys with a reputation of plus defense.

 

[guymez]

I could see it being much less of a factor just because of who he's competing with. Oddsmakers have the top 4 as Hughes, Makar, Josi and Bouchard right now. You aren't going to confuse any of them for stalwart defenders.

You'd have to go all the way down to Heiskanen or McAvoy for guys with a reputation of plus defense.

As much as I like him Bouchard is not a top 5 defender in this League.
He just isnt.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

So if every Hockey manager/executive/scout would take Hedman over Bouchard you are still somehow correct? They laugh at the question.

All of Bouchard's stats are hyped because he plays on the Oilers. You realize if you did this same thing with Barrie before he left Edmonton it would look similar?

And where is Tyson Barrie now? He has been a healthy scratch this year.....

Weird, Tampa Vancouver and Colorado must suck.

Or do their stats not get hyped because they play on good teams?

This generation's Sergi Gonchar.

Fantastic offensive talent and vision; and even if he isn't an amazing skater, he can still drive the play with the best of them.

He can play competent defence (most of the time), but commits the most brain-dead errors far more often than he should. If anything, the fact that he often looks sound defensively is what makes the lazy errors even more infuriating.

Things like this look familiar, no?

He lost more battles because he chose to not even try and engage vs. being outmuscled on a play.

I think if you watched the Norris favorite this year, you’d be surprised at how many mistakes he makes defensively.

I am extremely happy with Bouchards offence. I have sadi as much multiple times.
I just dont think that his defence is Norris worthy this season. I strongly suspect that the voting members will see things the same way.


Yes.
Exactly.

You also don’t seem to understand how the Norris is voted on.

Erik karlsson just won it while being miles worse defensively than Bouchard

 

[McDNicks17]

As much as I like him Bouchard is not a top 5 defender in this League.
He just isnt.

Well, he's third in scoring and has the best metrics of any defenseman in the league, so lots of voters are going to look at that instead of getting hung up on the odd mistake he makes.

 

[guymez]

Weird, Tampa Vancouver and Colorado must suck.

Or do their stats not get hyped because they play on good teams?


I think if you watched the Norris favorite this year, you’d be surprised at how many mistakes he makes defensively.


You also don’t seem to understand how the Norris is voted on.

Erik karlsson just won it while being miles worse defensively than Bouchard

Well, he's third in scoring and has the best metrics of any defenseman in the league, so lots of voters are going to look at that instead of getting hung up on the odd mistake he makes.

Hung up on odd mistakes...lol
Seriuosly man...you and a few other posters need to take your Oilers googles off.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

LOL


Hung up on odd mistakes...lol
Seriuosly man...you and a few other posters need to take your Oilers googles off.

As opposed to you who only focuses on his mistakes?

You clearly are out of touch on how the Norris is voted on

It’s incredible how even “Oiler fans” don’t understand that good players, play with other good players, thought that braindead way of thinking was left to the mains

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Okay.
Poor wording on my part. Should have read...it should have read...hasnt been at a level high enough to be considered Norris worthy.
That aside...the sample size away from Ekholm is too small to be of muchh value.

Small enough to have no value for the other side of the argument, but big enough for your side of the argument.

 

[guymez]

As opposed to you who only focuses on his mistakes?

You clearly are out of touch on how the Norris is voted on

It’s incredible how even “Oiler fans” don’t understand that good players, play with other good players, thought that braindead way of thinking was left to the mains

I never said that Bouchard wasnt a good player. I even lauded his offence this season.
Why the misdirection?

You still either cant or wont understand that I dont think that Bouchards all around game is Norris caliber.
IMO he is not a top 5 dman in the NHL.
Its not an insult to say that. Its just reality.

Lets see how the voting goes. We shall see if they agree with you and a few other posters on here.

 

[McDNicks17]

Hung up on odd mistakes...lol
Seriuosly man...you and a few other posters need to take your Oilers googles off.

Well, that's what it is. His overall defensive results are elite. The guy is allowing goals and chances at some of the lowest rates in the entire league, but you seem to be discounting that because he makes mistakes like everyone else in the league.

I think it's a little ironic because it seems like your "Oilers goggles" are your problem with this. If you watched as many Canucks/Avs/Preds games as you do Oilers games, you'd see Hughes, Makar and Josi making just as many mistakes.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

I never said that Bouchard wasnt a good player. I even lauded his offence this season.
Why the misdirection?

You still either cant or wont understand that I dont think that Bouchards all around game is Norris caliber.
IMO he is not a top 5 dman in the NHL.
Its not an insult to say that. Its just reality.

Lets see how the voting goes. We shall see if they agree with you and a few other posters on here.

The only thing that might hold him back is everyone still thinking he’s an absolute liability defensively.

When nurse finished 7th, his year was much worse than bouchards this year

 

[guymez]

Well, that's what it is. His overall defensive results are elite. The guy is allowing goals and chances at some of the lowest rates in the entire league, but you seem to be discounting that because he makes mistakes like everyone else in the league.

I think it's a little ironic because it seems like your "Oilers goggles" are your problem with this. If you watched as many Canucks/Avs/Preds games as you do Oilers games, you'd see Hughes, Makar and Josi making just as many mistakes.

Okay...you think that Bouchard is a top 5 NHL dman.
Got it.

Lets see if the voting members think that way as well.

The only thing that might hold him back is everyone still thinking he’s an absolute liability defensively.

When nurse finished 7th, his year was much worse than bouchards this year

So the only thing holding back Bouchard from winning the Norris is this false notion that he is not an elite defender.
Okay.

 

[McDNicks17]

Okay...you think that Bouchard is a top 5 NHL dman.
Got it.

Lets see if the voting members think that way as well.

I think he's a top 5 defenseman in regards to how the Norris has always been voted on.

I'd probably take guys like Heiskanen and McAvoy over Bouchard, but defense-first guys don't win the Norris.

 

[guymez]

I think he's a top 5 defenseman in regards to how the Norris has always been voted on.

I'd probably take guys like Heiskanen and McAvoy over Bouchard, but defense-first guys don't win the Norris.

Bouchards power play points this season is essentially the difference between his and Ekholms offensive production.
So essentially what you are saying is that Bouchards PP production elevates him above Ekholm and makes him a better overall damn than Ekholm.
Correct?