Player Discussion Evan Bouchard

[McDNicks17]

We have to start defining and qualifying the word impact
Just making an impact isnt enough.

Its also not about being perfect in your own end. As I said in another post we have had glimpses of Bocuhard without Ekholm and it hasnt been pretty.
There is little to no evidence (at this point in time) that Bouchard would have an elevated positive impact at 5x5 without Ekholm. Lots of evidence to the contrary though.

When he can be an offensive force and be at least average defensivley without Ekholm then IMO he will be ready for Norris consideration.
The evidence suggests that he just isnt there yet.

The term "impact player" has been around for a long time. I would define impact as the things those players do. Being a go-to guy that makes individual plays that contribute to wins.


Bouchard's metrics without Ekholm are better than Ekholm's without Bouchard this year.

I personally think you're overstating Ekholm's mentorship too. Bouchard didn't only just end up with Ekholm, he started to get a massive McDavid push at the same time too. I'd give McDavid far more credit for Bouchard's improvement(and Ekholm's season too), but maybe that argument is for another time.

 

[Broberg Speed]

Sure and then pair Ekholm with Ceci or Desharnais and weaken our team even more.

One game with Ekholm and there would be a petition to re-sign Stecher.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Again, what is this “cult” you keep talking about?

Why hypothesize about a Bouchard/Kulak pairing when you could look at the actual numbers?

View attachment 847286

Bouchard with good numbers across the board here, must be Ekholm's presence from the bench scaring the other team from toying with him.

This thread would be a fun read if Bouchard made the same mistake Ekholm did against St. Louis in overtime.

 

[Ol' Jase]

One game with Ekholm and there would be a petition to re-sign Stecher.

You’re going to love hockey once you watch your first game. It’s a hell of a sport.

 

[guymez]

It's almost like Bouchard has gotten better as hes progressed in his career.

Away from Ekholm his stats this year are still amazing.

How big is the sample size?

I never said that he was a good defensive player prior to Ekholm. I realize the impact that Ekholm and Coffey have had on his game. He still makes plays that make you say wtf, so he hasn't gotten all of that out of his game yet either. BUT he is much improved and is clearly a better player now than he was at this time last year IMO. That pairing was great then, they are even better now. They compliment each other well. It's just too bad that Nurse doesn't emulate Ekholm's game or we'd really be cooking with gas.

Oh yes...Bouchard has imporved for sure. No argument from me at all on that.
I just dont think that he is Norris caliber.

When it comes to Nurse...we agree completely. Too bad that Nurse and Ekholm didnt play different sides.

Line Stats - Natural Stat Trick

CF% 61.04
SF% 61,22
GF% 57.14
xGF% 63.95
SCF% 61.28
HDCF% 66.40

The GA/60 rate is certainly up but its not like he has been getting killed 5 vs 5 away from Ekholm this year.

Again...I think we need a little more data.
I am all for having Bouchard anchor another pairing for extended periods of time against a multitude of different oppostion.
We shall see how it plays out.

 

[guymez]

The term "impact player" has been around for a long time. I would define impact as the things those players do. Being a go-to guy that makes individual plays that contribute to wins.


Bouchard's metrics without Ekholm are better than Ekholm's without Bouchard this year.

I personally think you're overstating Ekholm's mentorship too. Bouchard didn't only just end up with Ekholm, he started to get a massive McDavid push at the same time too. I'd give McDavid far more credit for Bouchard's improvement(and Ekholm's season too), but maybe that argument is for another time.

Lets build a significant smaple size with Bouchard on another pairing.
Then I think we will have something a little more revealing.

 

[Fourier]

How big is the sample size?


Oh yes...Bouchard has imporved for sure.
Still not Norris caliber IMO.


Again...I think we need a little more data.
I am all for having Bouchard anchor another pairing.

Asking for more data is fine but if your claim is that we have seen him away from Ekholm and it was not pretty what data do you have to support that. You said you have lots of evidence. I'd like to see it.

 

[guymez]

Asking for more data is fine but if your claim is that we have seen him away from Ekholm and it was not pretty what data do you have to support that. You said you have lots of evidence. I'd like to see it.

Its pretty simple really.
The sample size is too small but by virtue of what I have seen so far it suggests that Bouchard has not been at the level of what I would expect a Norris caliber dman to be.
Especially away from Ekholm. I need to see more.
Thats really the entire focus of this conversation.

Is it your claim that Bouchard is a worthy Norris candidate right now?

 

[Broberg Speed]

You’re going to love hockey once you watch your first game. It’s a hell of a sport.

I'm looking forward to it, don't you think we should start planning the parade route?

 

[Ol' Jase]

I'm looking forward to it, don't you think we should start planning the parade route?

A parade for what?

 

[Broberg Speed]

A parade for what?

Evan Bouchard

 

[Ol' Jase]

Evan Bouchard

I don’t think they give players parades.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Its pretty simple really.
The sample size is too small but by virtue of what I have seen so far it suggests that Bouchard has not been at the level of what I would expect a Norris caliber dman to be.
Especially away from Ekholm. I need to see more.
Thats really the entire focus of this conversation.

Is it your claim that Bouchard is a worthy Norris candidate right now?

Once again oilers players getting punished for playing with other good players.

 

[guymez]

Once again oilers players getting punished for playing with other good players.

Thats just false.
I have articulated my position pretty clearly on Bouchard.

If you think that he is a legit Norris candidate (right now) then you are entitled to that opinon.
We will just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Thats just false.
I have articulated my position pretty clearly on Bouchard.

If you think that he is a legit Norris candidate (right now) then you are entitled to that opinon.
We will just have to agree to disagree.

You’re also all over the place.

You say we don’t have enough sample size away from ekholm but you also say he’s been bad away from him.

Which is false, and I’ve never once said he’s a Norris candidate, he’s just much better than you give him credit for, usually this happens because posters get fixated on one or two mistakes a game and ignore all the good stuff he does.

 

[bobbythebrain]

Good players are allowed to play with eachother. Good players are allowed to develop.
Saying Bouchard has merely benefitted bc of Ekholm is nonsense.

Maybe watch him play. This year he's carrying the puck into the offense zone more. That's not Ekholm. This year he's cycling and switching more. That's not Ekholm. This year he's juking at the blueline more. Again, not Ek

What is Ekholm is that he has a good partner to pass to who he's benefitted from after the pass.

There's no denying he's reaping benefits from playing with Ek. But ignoring his exyra confidence with puck....paaalease

 

[guymez]

You’re also all over the place.

You say we don’t have enough sample size away from ekholm but you also say he’s been bad away from him.

Which is false, and I’ve never once said he’s a Norris candidate, he’s just much better than you give him credit for, usually this happens because posters get fixated on one or two mistakes a game and ignore all the good stuff he does.

Nice attempt at misdirection.

I have said that I need to see more and that Bouchard has not been at a Norris caliber.
Especially away from Ekholm.
Extolling stats based on 250 mins of TOI for Bouchard away from Ekholm means what exactly?

If you want to stop the strawman argument then that would be great.
If not then just move on.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Nice attempt at misdirection.

I have said that I need to see more and that Bouchard has not been at a Norris caliber.
Especially away from Ekholm.
Extolling stats based on 250 mins of TOI for Bouchard away from Ekholm means what exactly?

If you want to stop the strawman argument then that would be great.
If not then just move on.

"The sample size is too small but by virtue of what I have seen so far it suggests that Bouchard has not been at the level of what I would expect a Norris caliber dman to be."

So is it too small, or is it good enough to suggest hes not a that level.

 

[guymez]

"The sample size is too small but by virtue of what I have seen so far it suggests that Bouchard has not been at the level of what I would expect a Norris caliber dman to be."

So is it too small, or is it good enough to suggest hes not a that level.

Both.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Both.

That what I thought, you only want to use those "limited" minutes when they support your argument, but those minutes actually hurt your argument.

Bouchard has better analytics away from Ekholm than Ekholm has away frrom Bouchard btw.

Also you said this.

"First he has to clean up his defensive lapses. Too much poor decision making in his own zone.
Its just too frequent."

Yet Hughes who is the probable favourite to win the Norris, makes mistakes all the time.

For example, tonight against the Kings he was terrible.

 

[guymez]

That what I thought, you only want to use those "limited" minutes when they support your argument, but those minutes actually hurt your argument.

Bouchard has better analytics away from Ekholm than Ekholm has away frrom Bouchard btw.

Also you said this.

"First he has to clean up his defensive lapses. Too much poor decision making in his own zone.
Its just too frequent."

Yet Hughes who is the probable favourite to win the Norris, makes mistakes all the time.

For example, tonight against the Kings he was terrible.

No.
What I am saying is that the sample size (away from Ekholm) is too small for the data to matter all that much and my viewing of Bouchard suggests that he isnt yet Norris caliber.
Clear?

 

[Ol' Jase]

Regardless of how good of a season Bouchard has had, I can’t possibly see how “Bouchard isn’t Norris worthy” isn’t a legitimately valid opinion.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Loved the snarl in his game tonight and another Bouch bomb goal.

 

[bobbythebrain]

"The sample size is too small but by virtue of what I have seen so far it suggests that Bouchard has not been at the level of what I would expect a Norris caliber dman to be."

So is it too small, or is it good enough to suggest hes not a that level.

Do you realize how many posts his hit this year? Or how many breakaway passes or semi- break passes he's made that haven't converted? It's pretty substantial

Cale Makar can be brought to earth by a bad d partner. Quinn Hughes was castrated sided by Myers. Karlsson was castrated by Letang

Bouchard shouldn't be judged on his strengths just cuz he isn't playing with Cody Ceci who is the human rake.

There are plenty of defenseman not named Ekholm who Bouchard could strive under. Him and Keith were pretty darn good tooo

 

[Spawn]

Nice attempt at misdirection.

I have said that I need to see more and that Bouchard has not been at a Norris caliber.
Especially away from Ekholm.
Extolling stats based on 250 mins of TOI for Bouchard away from Ekholm means what exactly?

If you want to stop the strawman argument then that would be great.
If not then just move on.

The Norris trophy is awarded based on a players play in one season is it not?

How Bouchard looked in the 1st half of his sophomore season when he wasn't on the PP unit and was still finding his place in the NHL is 100% irrelevant to the discussion as to if he is having a Norris caliber season.

Here is the reality for this season:
Bouchard's numbers are elite.
Across the board.
With or without Ekholm

Nothing else is relevant to a discussion. Frankly, the without Ekholm bit is also irrelevant. As if a d-man can only with a Norris if they aren't paired with a great partner. If that mattered, than Makar better give back his Norris trophy, because his d-partner finished 9th in Norris voting that same season. Lidstrom is going to need to give back like 5 of em.