Player Discussion Evan Bouchard

[guymez]

I guess it comes down to how much you value his work on the PP.

If you include that, he’s definitely the most impactful defenseman on the team.

Whether or not he is impactful isnt in doubt for me. He most certainly is.
Especially on the PP...much like Tyson Barrie.
That isnt enough to be Norris worthy though.

A Norris worthy dman has to be the best dman on the team and his influence has to extend beyond just being impactful. Nurse is impactful too. Like Bouchard that impact can work both ways.

Bouchard has to do 2 things to be Norris worthy.

First he has to clean up his defensive lapses. Too much poor decision making in his own zone.
Its just too frequent.
Second once he does that he has to prove his all around impact by maintaining that high level away from Ekholm.

 

[Whoshattenkirkshoes]

Did I say that?

You had him listed with a group of the top 3-4 D in the league.

Hedman isn’t that.

Someone who watches closer should know that

But yes, Bouchard and ekholm are both better than Hedman of today.

He’s not even close to the player he once was

Bouchard is not better than Hedman today

 

[Whoshattenkirkshoes]

I hear you but based on my viewings of Bouchard this season and the multitude of defensive blunders he has been responsible for there is no way IMO he gets any substantial Norris consideration.

I mean Bouchard isnt even the best dman on this team.

I say it and they eat me alive. You say it and the people cheer LMAO.

Good stuff

 

[bobbythebrain]

What “cult” are you referring to here?

The not knowing anything about hockey cult. Apparently only a handful of people understand hockey, and anyone who thinks Bouchard is good doesn't

When you know hockey as well as that poster you can recognize that Ekholm is actually playing worse right now than other times in his career

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Whether or not he is impactful isnt in doubt for me. He most certainly is.
Especially on the PP...much like Tyson Barrie.
That isnt enough to be Norris worthy though.

A Norris worthy dman has to be the best dman on the team and his influence has to extend beyond just being impactful. Nurse is impactful too. Like Bouchard that impact can work both ways.

Bouchard has to do 2 things to be Norris worthy.

First he has to clean up his defensive lapses. Too much poor decision making in his own zone.
Its just too frequent.
Second once he does that he has to prove his all around impact by maintaining that high level away from Ekholm.

Why though? That's like saying that McDavid should've never won the Hart because he had Drai on his line lots at times. When Makar won it he had Toews as his partner.

 

[guymez]

Why though? That's like saying that McDavid should've never won the Hart because he had Drai on his line lots at times. When Makar won it he had Toews as his partner.

Its not at all like saying that.

Bouchard is less than a season away from just being a dman with offensive potential that was a liability in his own zone. Thats what he was before Ekholm got here. He wasnt even a reliable top 4 dman.
Now he is fulfilling his offensive potential and starting to clean up his defensive shortcomings.

ALL of that happened under the mentorship of Ekholm. ALL of it.

To suggest that he needs to continue to grow and then play a solid game without being propped up by Ekholm is just not the same as suggesting that McDavid (a forward who has proven himself over and over again) was undeserving of a trophy because he played with Draisaitl.

Bouchard still has lots to prove.

The beauty of Ekholm is that it doesnt matter who you put him with he excels.
Bouchard just isnt there yet.

 

[VainGretzky]

What the hell does this even mean?

He has the worst takes on here

 

[McDNicks17]

Whether or not he is impactful isnt in doubt for me. He most certainly is.
Especially on the PP...much like Tyson Barrie.
That isnt enough to be Norris worthy though.

A Norris worthy dman has to be the best dman on the team and his influence has to extend beyond just being impactful. Nurse is impactful too. Like Bouchard that impact can work both ways.

Bouchard has to do 2 things to be Norris worthy.

First he has to clean up his defensive lapses. Too much poor decision making in his own zone.
Its just too frequent.
Second once he does that he has to prove his all around impact by maintaining that high level away from Ekholm.

I was referring to the best defenseman on the team part not the Norris part, but generally the Norris gets rewarded for impact. It always goes to the guys getting puck touches, scoring goals, getting points, etc.

I disagree with the second part. Most Norris winners have been far from perfect in their own end. I don't think he should win the Norris, but I don't think he has to change his style of game either. Like the front runner for the Norris right now is probably Quinn Hughes. That speaks volumes for how little defense is cared about.

 

[Ol' Jase]

The not knowing anything about hockey cult. Apparently only a handful of people understand hockey, and anyone who thinks Bouchard is good doesn't

When you know hockey as well as that poster you can recognize that Ekholm is actually playing worse right now than other times in his career

I thought it might have been some weird medical cult that overrides injury diagnoses on players and teams who openly disclose hip flexor injuries as actual core injuries.

To be fair, that would be a pretty cool cult.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Its not at all like saying that.

Bouchard is less than a season away from just being a dman with offensive potential that was a liability in his own zone. Thats what he was before Ekholm got here. He wasnt even a reliable top 4 dman.
Now he is fulfilling his offensive potential and starting to clean up his defensive shortcomings.

ALL of that happened under the mentorship of Ekholm. ALL of it.

To suggest that he needs to continue to grow and then play a solid game without being propped up by Ekholm is just not the same as suggesting that McDavid (a forward who has proven himself over and over again) was undeserving of a trophy because he played with Draisaitl.

Bouchard still has lots to prove.

The beauty of Ekholm is that it doesnt matter who you put him with he excels.
Bouchard just isnt there yet.

Pronger wasn't Pronger until he got to be mentored by MacInnis either. Not comparing the two, just saying that most quality D have the luxury of having a quality D as their mentor. For Ekholm that was Suter and Weber. For Bouch it was Keith and now Ekholm.

 

[CantHaveTkachev]

Q Hughes is pretty close or on Makar's level. He has actually taken huge steps this year.

Q. Hughes is better defensively than Makar.

Go watch like 10 full nucks games

I saw the Vegas bully little Quinn Hughes last week in Vegas
Guy was a mess without the puck on his stick and the big Vegas forwards took the little guys lunch money every time the puck was in the Canucks zone

Hughes has major flaws like Bouchard

 

[Broberg Speed]

Why though? That's like saying that McDavid should've never won the Hart because he had Drai on his line lots at times. When Makar won it he had Toews as his partner.

I'd love to see what a Bouchard/Kulak pairing would look like against Calgary, a team stripped to the bone, no pp time. Because I have a good idea what that would look like.

Would it be an eye-opening experience difficult for the cult to ignore?

They likely would come up with an excuse for every bad play... endless denial. And Bouchard probably would still get a Mcpoint out of the meeting so they could spin their propellers.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

I'd love to see what a Bouchard/Kulak pairing would look like against Calgary, a team stripped to the bone, no pp time. Because I have a good idea what that would look like.

Would it be an eye-opening experience difficult for the cult to ignore?

They likely would come up with an excuse for every bad play... endless denial. And Bouchard probably would still get a Mcpoint out of the meeting so they could spin their propellers.

Sure and then pair Ekholm with Ceci or Desharnais and weaken our team even more.

 

[guymez]

Pronger wasn't Pronger until he got to be mentored by MacInnis either. Not comparing the two, just saying that most quality D have the luxury of having a quality D as their mentor. For Ekholm that was Suter and Weber. For Bouch it was Keith and now Ekholm.

Well for me if Bouchard wants to be taken seriously as a Norris candidate then everything he does should be reproducible without Ekholm.

Same goes for any Norris worthy dman...if he is in fact a worthy Norris candidate then he can impact the game without the need of a mentor.

Pronger for example was paired with a number of different dman and he always impacted the game.
He was the mentor. He was the player that made his D partner better.
I recall in the playoffs in 2006 Marc Andre Bergeron was paired with Pronger and played top pairing minutes. MAB was not a top pairing dman but with Pronger he was servicable.
Same with Keith before he came to Edmonton.

Bouchard isnt there yet.
We have had glimpses of what Bouchard is like without Ekholm and it hasnt been pretty.
Way too soon for this kind of talk IMO.

 

[guymez]

I was referring to the best defenseman on the team part not the Norris part, but generally the Norris gets rewarded for impact. It always goes to the guys getting puck touches, scoring goals, getting points, etc.

I disagree with the second part. Most Norris winners have been far from perfect in their own end. I don't think he should win the Norris, but I don't think he has to change his style of game either. Like the front runner for the Norris right now is probably Quinn Hughes. That speaks volumes for how little defense is cared about.

We have to start defining and qualifying the word impact
Just making an impact isnt enough.

Its also not about being perfect in your own end. As I said in another post we have had glimpses of Bocuhard without Ekholm and it hasnt been pretty.
There is little to no evidence (at this point in time) that Bouchard would have an elevated positive impact at 5x5 without Ekholm. Lots of evidence to the contrary though.

When he can be an offensive force and be at least average defensivley without Ekholm then IMO he will be ready for Norris consideration.
The evidence suggests that he just isnt there yet.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Well for me if Bouchard wants to be taken seriously as a Norris candidate then everything he does should be reproducible without Ekholm.

Same goes for any Norris worthy dman...if he is in fact a worthy Norris candidate then he can impact the game without the need of a mentor.

Pronger for example was paired with a number of different dman and he always impacted the game.
He was the mentor. He was the player that made his D partner better.
I recall in the playoffs in 2006 Marc Andre Bergeron was paired with Pronger and played top pairing minutes. MAB was not a top pairing dman but with Pronger he was servicable.
Same with Keith before he came to Edmonton.

Bouchard isnt there yet.
We have had glimpses of what Bouchard is like without Ekholm and it hasnt been pretty.
Way too soon for this kind of talk IMO.

Pronger wasn't there at 24 either. Bouch is a better offensive defenseman than Pronger was but Pronger is a far better defensive player than Bouch ever will be. Pronger was at the same stage of his career that Ekholm is in. That's the comparable. Ek is Pronger lite and an absolute beast.

 

[guymez]

Pronger wasn't there at 24 either. Bouch is a better offensive defenseman than Pronger was but Pronger is a far better defensive player than Bouch ever will be. Pronger was at the same stage of his career that Ekholm is in. That's the comparable. Ek is Pronger lite and an absolute beast.

I think its possible that you are being seduced by what Bouchard has done offensively (especially on the PP) this season.
How was Bouchard before Ekholm got here?
I would suggest taking a 20,000 foot view and widening the lens on his game.

He could well reach the Norris standard (I hope he does) but he just isnt there yet.
As I mentioned to McDNicks....

When Bouchard can be an offensive force and be at least average defensivley without Ekholm then IMO he will be ready for Norris consideration.
The evidence suggests that he just isnt there yet.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

Bouchard is not better than Hedman today

Says who? Your eye test since you watch them so close?

For being better you'd think that Hedman wouldnt get killed by Bouchard in every analytic and result possible
5on5
Hedman
17:24 toi/gp
64.16 cf/60
59.46 ca/60
30.64 sf/60
30.78 sa/60
3.21 gf/60
2.65 ga/60
2.81 xGF/60
2.9 xGA/60
30.26 scf/60
27.98 sca/60
12.48 hdcf/60
11.64 hdca/60

Bouchard
17:56 toi/gp
72 cf/60
47.24 ca/60
38.05 sf/60
24.76 sa/60
3.84 gf/60
2.41 ga/60
3.72 xGF/60
2.24 xGA/60
37.52 scf/60
23.15 sca/60
16.5 hdcf/60
9.14 hdca/60

I think its possible that you are being seduced by what Bouchard has done offensively (especially on the PP) this season.
How was Bouchard before Ekholm got here?
I would suggest taking a 20,000 foot view and widening the lens on his game.

He could well reach the Norris standard (I hope he does) but he just isnt there yet.
As I mentioned to McDNicks....

When Bouchard can be an offensive force and be at least average defensivley without Ekholm then IMO he will be ready for Norris consideration.
The evidence suggests that he just isnt there yet.

It's almost like Bouchard has gotten better as hes progressed in his career.

Away from Ekholm his stats this year are still amazing.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

I think its possible that you are being seduced by what Bouchard has done offensively (especially on the PP) this season.
How was Bouchard before Ekholm got here?
I would suggest taking a 20,000 foot view and widening the lens on his game.

He could well reach the Norris standard (I hope he does) but he just isnt there yet.
As I mentioned to McDNicks....

When Bouchard can be an offensive force and be at least average defensivley without Ekholm then IMO he will be ready for Norris consideration.
The evidence suggests that he just isnt there yet.

I never said that he was a good defensive player prior to Ekholm. I realize the impact that Ekholm and Coffey have had on his game. He still makes plays that make you say wtf, so he hasn't gotten all of that out of his game yet either. BUT he is much improved and is clearly a better player now than he was at this time last year IMO. That pairing was great then, they are even better now. They compliment each other well. It's just too bad that Nurse doesn't emulate Ekholm's game or we'd really be cooking with gas.

 

[Bryanbryoil]

Says who? Your eye test since you watch them so close?

For being better you'd think that Hedman wouldnt get killed by Bouchard in every analytic and result possible


It's almost like Bouchard has gotten better as hes progressed in his career.

Away from Ekholm his stats this year are still amazing.

He has gotten better as most young players do. But there is no denying that Ekholm has had a major influence on his game just as MacInnis did for Pronger, etc. That's why having quality vets is huge for young players that are eager and willing to learn.

 

[Tobias Kahun]

I'd love to see what a Bouchard/Kulak pairing would look like against Calgary, a team stripped to the bone, no pp time. Because I have a good idea what that would look like.

Would it be an eye-opening experience difficult for the cult to ignore?

They likely would come up with an excuse for every bad play... endless denial. And Bouchard probably would still get a Mcpoint out of the meeting so they could spin their propellers.

So you'd love to see the team not play to the strengths of their players so you could have an I told you so moment?

Are you even an oiler fan?

 

[Stoneman89]

It means Bouchard stinks in the defensive zone, and his intensity and decision making during critical game changing plays, wherever they may be on the ice surface, is for shit.

Everyone not belonging to the cult acknowledges this.

The "Cult" being 99 % of the population.

 

[Fourier]

What “cult” are you referring to here?

Human beings?

I never said that he was a good defensive player prior to Ekholm. I realize the impact that Ekholm and Coffey have had on his game. He still makes plays that make you say wtf, so he hasn't gotten all of that out of his game yet either. BUT he is much improved and is clearly a better player now than he was at this time last year IMO. That pairing was great then, they are even better now. They compliment each other well. It's just too bad that Nurse doesn't emulate Ekholm's game or we'd really be cooking with gas.

His mentor Paul Coffey also made such plays. In the end it comes down to which part of a players game is more dominant. The good or the bad. For Bouchard this year it has been decidedly the former.

 

[Ol' Jase]

I'd love to see what a Bouchard/Kulak pairing would look like against Calgary, a team stripped to the bone, no pp time. Because I have a good idea what that would look like.

Would it be an eye-opening experience difficult for the cult to ignore?

They likely would come up with an excuse for every bad play... endless denial. And Bouchard probably would still get a Mcpoint out of the meeting so they could spin their propellers.

Again, what is this “cult” you keep talking about?

Why hypothesize about a Bouchard/Kulak pairing when you could look at the actual numbers?

 

[Fourier]

Well for me if Bouchard wants to be taken seriously as a Norris candidate then everything he does should be reproducible without Ekholm.

Same goes for any Norris worthy dman...if he is in fact a worthy Norris candidate then he can impact the game without the need of a mentor.

Pronger for example was paired with a number of different dman and he always impacted the game.
He was the mentor. He was the player that made his D partner better.
I recall in the playoffs in 2006 Marc Andre Bergeron was paired with Pronger and played top pairing minutes. MAB was not a top pairing dman but with Pronger he was servicable.
Same with Keith before he came to Edmonton.

Bouchard isnt there yet.
We have had glimpses of what Bouchard is like without Ekholm and it hasnt been pretty.
Way too soon for this kind of talk IMO.

Line Stats - Natural Stat Trick

CF% 61.04
SF% 61,22
GF% 57.14
xGF% 63.95
SCF% 61.28
HDCF% 66.40

The GA/60 rate is certainly up but its not like he has been getting killed 5 vs 5 away from Ekholm this year.