Erik Karlsson vs Luke Schenn

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bobermay

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Mar 6, 2009
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Huh?

Not quiet sure what the hell your trying say. Some players are drafted for offense, others for defense, and some for both. Where they get drafted depends on how likely the scouts believe they will reach that potential.

Alright, let me do this again:
When drafted:
Chara - HC Sparta Praha Jr.-CzRep-Jr. 15GP 1G 3P
Weber - Kelowna Rockets - 70GP 2G 18P
Souray - Tri-City Americans - 42GP 3G 9P
Edler - Jämtland - 24GP 3G 9P

Luke Schenn - Kelowna Rockets - 57GP 7G 28P
 

leafsfuture

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Mar 30, 2008
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People that say Karlsson has no defensive awareness is completely wrong, hes very sound positionally...but he needs to get stronger which is going to happen..thats his only flaw right now!

I think his descision making needs some work. Hes got the flare, no doubt about it. And he has vision that Schenn will certainly never have, but he tends to go for a lot of hail mary passes, and can turn it over alot. Thats what happened in the begining of the season, and in the playoffs.

Now I realize its understandable for a young kid to do that, but my point is he still has a lot of flaws to overcome. Take away the final 10 regular season games, when he had 12 points, and his stat line is 14 points in 50 games. Not bad at all for a rookie teenager, but all of a sudden, he doesnt look that better than Schenn, if better at all
 

Samsquanch

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Hey to all the leafs fans in here who believe defense is harder to teach than offense please check out the new thread on the prospect board so we can get some other fans opinions on this.

Im tired of arguing with you all myself, I feel like Im beating my head against a wall here.
 

Asquaredx2

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Mar 10, 2008
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I think his descision making needs some work. Hes got the flare, no doubt about it. And he has vision that Schenn will certainly never have, but he tends to go for a lot of hail mary passes, and can turn it over alot. Thats what happened in the begining of the season, and in the playoffs.

Now I realize its understandable for a young kid to do that, but my point is he still has a lot of flaws to overcome. Take away the final 10 regular season games, when he had 12 points, and his stat line is 14 points in 50 games. Not bad at all for a rookie teenager, but all of a sudden, he doesnt look that better than Schenn, if better at all

Actually I think as far as Karlsson's bad decisions go, it's more occasionally he misjudges when is an appropriate time to try an Orr-style rush. But he'll also get better at powering through in his skating as he grows stronger.

Over-all, he had 47 give-aways in 60 games, which is obviously worse than Schenn's 41 in 79, but understandable given his role is quite different.

Per the points thing, I'm not sure why it's pertinent to take away the final 12 games when he finally got the hang of running a powerplay. And another thing is, pretty much inherent in the PMD name, a puck-moving defenceman's worth is more than just the points he puts up. Sens fans started raving about Karlsson's play considerably before he was productive, which should give you some indication of over-all play. I'd say that apart from on the powerplay, he was as good or better in January than he was at the end of the year.

Another thing, not totally related to your post, is that the Sens' powerplay was atrocious before Karlsson sorted it out. We were fighting for 30th over-all PP in the league with guys like Kuba, Campoli, Alfredsson, Shannon (*shudder*) and raw(er) Karlsson on the points. I suspect Schenn's powerplay production would not mirror Karlsson's even if he were given similar opportunities.

EDIT: I forgot, this was supposed to be about Karlsson's defence.

I agree, his two biggest weaknesses defensively are his scrawniness and sometimes over-confidence seeping into his decision-making. Positionally, I can't recall anything like a 2-on-2 situation where he was where he wasn't supposed to be (apart from maybe in his first 9 games). I do recall he misplayed a 2-on-1 against Ovechkin and Semin, though *gasp*. One positional thing he needs to learn is what to do when the other team establishes a cycle, because sometimes he stands at (clears, haha) the front of the net and watches before identifying who to take. Once he does, though, he's a pretty relentless/tireless 1-on-1 defender.

The strength thing will come - if you look at the photo of EK and the 5'11" Alfie at the Alfie 1000 ceremony, EK stands at least an inch taller than him, so he's obviously got the frame. And the decision-making should be tempered with time and with Gonchar's mentoring. The positives defensively are that he's an excellent skater, which helps him make up for mistakes sometimes, that he has a good stick, that his skill helps him out on defence (like Doughty's does, though to a lesser extent now), and that he's a determined defender. That he shied away from contact a little later on in the season was noticeable for a time after coming back from a shoulder injury, but he compared himself to Niklas Kronwall at the draft and does have something of a mean/hitting streak - if you watch the Victor Hedman pre-draft video, you'd see at some point a little yellow cannonball (Karlsson) flying through the air trying to take a Canadian player's head off. I wouldn't be surprised if he eventually became a pretty good open-ice hitter, and he definitely got involved with some Penguins during the series: Malkin he got a few good shots on, but the Mike Rupp selection was probably something he should have re-visited.
 
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The Management

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Jun 8, 2009
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I hope this thread stays open and continues through the season. It would be interesting to compare them as the year goes along, although like many have said before it is a strange comparison in the first place. As a Sens fan obviously I watch Karlsson more than Schenn, so it tough for me to give a fair opinion of Schenn.

What I propose is simple. Let's all try to watch the other player as much as possible throughout the season. I don't think it's fair to base it all on stats. I'm not saying all of you are, but I'm sure some people do.

What I don't like about these threads is that a lot of people are not capable of being objective. The team the player plays for really influences people's point of view. Example, if Toronto took Cowen and Ottawa took Kadri in last year's draft we would here Ottawa fans hyping Kadri while Toronto fans cut him down. Ottawa fans would point out Cowen's injury while Leaf fans would be excited about a Cowen-Schenn pairing.

Bang on the money. Sort of trivializes the whole thing, doesn't it?

This comparison is unworkable for many of the reasons mentioned.

Additionally, you have to look at the core of each respective team. Ottawa has guys like Phillips, Cowen, and Wiercioch to build around, meaning that EK brings a unique skill-set to the table with his sweet hands and great vision. Similarly, Toronto has a defensive core of Beauchemin, Phaneuf, and Gunnarsson; three very adept two-way, offensively minded players. Schenn builds on that rubric with his potential to be a solid shutdown defender and a reliable two-way defenseman [his passing is underrated, and his skating should hopefully improve.] Value is relative - that much should be dogma, especially when comparing two players as different stylistically as EK and Luke Schenn. The departure of Kaberle will probably leave a considerable hole on this team, but we'll see.

We do have Komisarek, however. But then, Ottawa just brought in Gonchar. I think both teams are preparing to insulate their youth with veteran experience and leadership. For example, Schenn's play dramatically improved when we acquired Phaneuf from Calgary. Similarly, Gonchar's presence may allow Karlsson to develop with less outside pressure and under the wing of one of the league's more respectable offensive defenseman.

Two great young kids. But too early to call anyone "astonishing" or a bonafide "franchise talent," as well.
 

kyle747

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Funny. In the last half of the season, Schenn was dynamite. I have no idea what you're trying to prove here.

That he's an ordinary player on a last place team?

Sorry if that hurts, but there it is.


If you seriously believe Schenn is a star player then we'll have to agree to disagree.
 

GaborikEqualsGod1995*

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Absolutely awful comparison. It's like:

Hall or Markstrom?

For the comparison, they are polar opposites. Schenn is a shutdown-defender, whil Karlsson is a PPQB offensive defenseman. For my team(Rangers)I pick Schenn. We already have Del Zotto for what Karlsson brings, and he brings it better IMO. Schenn would help with his snarl and physicality on our soft ass defense.

For overall, I'll put it this way; they are both very young, very talented defenseman and I look forward to watching them battle it out next season.
 

TheOriginalSilf*

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Absolutely awful comparison. It's like:

Hall or Markstrom?

For the comparison, they are polar opposites. Schenn is a shutdown-defender, whil Karlsson is a PPQB offensive defenseman. For my team(Rangers)I pick Schenn. We already have Del Zotto for what Karlsson brings, and he brings it better IMO. Schenn would help with his snarl and physicality on our soft ass defense.

For overall, I'll put it this way; they are both very young, very talented defenseman and I look forward to watching them battle it out next season.

THIS. x1000
 

bobermay

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Thats another thing (The ranger fan just reminded me ;).)

many people beleive M Staal has lots of offensive potential. He played two years of junior after getting drafted, and both of Schenn's first two seasons are statistically better than Staals, but close.

If Schenn is following Staal's progression, he should get 25-30 points next season.
 

Korpse

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Well at least 11 teams thought so at the draft. And really since then what has changed? Schenn was going to be the NHL ready stay at home rock. Karlsson was going to be the slick-skating offensive defenseman

not sure where you got 11, when Schenn was drafted by one team before karlsson. well since draft day i'd say a few things have changed like they did from day 1 of scouting to the draft day. karlsson was unkown and shot up to the 15th slot. since the draft karlsson has progressed much more then scheen, thats pretty obvious.
 

Korpse

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Luke Schenn by a fair margin, just so solid and a nasty hitter.
Karlsson a lightweight puck mover.
i will take the big body bone cruncher every day

guessing you liked the nhl more pre-lockout.
 

Korpse

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Actually offense is much easier to teach and learn then defense, because offense its all about physical tools, shooting, passing, with defense its about how ur brain is working and having it to work quickly, anticipation, defensive awareness, where is the forward going to go, how do i take away his shot, my angles, my positioning, defense takes years of mastering and video tape watching, and its nice to see young guys like Schenn, Gudbranson, get drafted high because they have a niche for defense which many young defensemen just have a tough time with. Schenn's offense will only get better, his shot has improved, he has the hockey sense, he has the passing ability and break out, his offense has to do with confidence, and as he gets older, he'll get more confident in his offense. Karlsson is undersized, so will need time in the weight room and video room to become better defensively

um, what? It goes both ways bud. offense is also about "how ur brain is working". you can't be slow to react with the puck, you have to make that pass right away especially at the NHL, you can't hesitate. offense isn't just passing and shooting. you need creativity, you need poise and you need offense awareness.
 

Korpse

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Oh.... I guess he's on pace to be as good or better than Drew Doughty then.

Erik Karlsson is easily the most overrated young defenseman on these boards. I've seen him called a better Mike Green, compared to Lidstrom, Doughty, etc.

He is going to be none of those things.

LOL. YA, Karlsson will definitely be better than Drew Doughty :thumbu:

ffs, the guy did not say he is going to be as good or better then doughty just that doughty had 27 points his rookie season.
 

Korpse

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do i need to put up the Schenn demolishing Malkin, Crosby, etc, the shift against the Islanders, the 2 bullet shots top shelf against the Sens, do you want me to do this. Schenn>Karlsson in 08, 09, 10, and the future. Theres a reason why Schenn went 5th and Karlsson 15th overall.

because draft position is always the best indicator...
 

boozeash

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Karlsson didn't break out until the 2nd half.
Including the playoffs, he finished with a 29-5-19-24 line in his last 29 games and was playing dominant hockey down the stretch.




Clearly? Or perhaps Murray was sick of us lacking any point-shots whatsoever and watching opponents collapse down low on our forwards essentially double teaming them to leave our D-men open. We essentially only had Karlsson dominating for 1/4 of the season last year. Adding him and Gonchar on separate pairings will open up a lot of room for our forwards this season.



You should watch more games then. He was really using his speed and body positioning effectively to break up plays the last half of the season and Clouston should have no problems throwing him out there in the Top-4 at ES this season.

I watched Schenn this season. Is he Pejorative Slured or was he drunk?

Just because you clearly like Karlsson dosen't mean you have to disrespect and insult the player he's being compared to. I am a fan of both teams and both players and a little maturity and respect would be appreciated. That said, i'd give the edge to Karlsson right now, but the edge is small.
 

Hale The Villain

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Just because you clearly like Karlsson dosen't mean you have to disrespect and insult the player he's being compared to. I am a fan of both teams and both players and a little maturity and respect would be appreciated. That said, i'd give the edge to Karlsson right now, but the edge is small.

That's simply not possible, Einstein has proved this many times.
 

bobermay

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You must be stuck in the 06/07 season because Grenne has developed into a respectable defender.

Well, Schenn is better offensively than Greene, thats for sure. I haven't seen Greene much, so I can't compare defensively.

Schenn has almost the same amount of career points, in half the games played. Greene didn't play in the NHL until he was 21?22? Schenn is 20 right now.
 

CaseyJones65

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**If** Schenn develops anything close to a respectable point shot in addition to passable footwork > Karlsson. With that being said (as a Leafs supporter), I'd take Karlsson easily over Schenn. Karlsson is already a stud d-man.
 

Brownies

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Habs fan here and I'd like to have both on my team. Schenn will soon be better than Komisarek. Both are good defensively and can throw great hits. However, while not being that great offensively, Schenn is already better than Komisarek in that department.

However, I've been totally impressed by Karlsson (in the regular season I must add.. which is normal for a rookie). He's a game breaker. He's got a great shot, great vision, smooth skating. I think he plays well enough in his own end. He's gonna be a really good defenseman for years to come if he keeps on improving.

To those who say we can't compare orange with apples, I'd argue that they're both NHL defenseman. I don't care who's the better on offense, which one is the better in his own end. The OP asked who's gonna be the best HOCKEY player and I think that Karlsson is better at hockey. Ask anyone who's played hockey and was a defensive specialist : do you think you were the best player on your team ? He'll answer that if he was the best player he wouldn't have been a defensive specialist. You don't defend when you're the best, you attack.
 

trentmccleary

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Additionally, you have to look at the core of each respective team. Ottawa has guys like Phillips, Cowen, and Wiercioch to build around, meaning that EK brings a unique skill-set to the table with his sweet hands and great vision.

Wiecioch and Rundblad are both (highly rated) offensive D-men.

Carkner would have fit better in your sentence over Wiercioch.
 

General Borschevsky

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That he's an ordinary player on a last place team?

Sorry if that hurts, but there it is.


If you seriously believe Schenn is a star player then we'll have to agree to disagree.

Excuse me? Did I call Schenn a star player? He's a developing young talent, just like Karlsson. If he was 26 or 27 you might have a point about him being an "ordinary" player, but he's not. His game has come along considerably since his rookie season.

It's too bad you're not paying attention.
 
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