Erik Karlsson vs Luke Schenn

[Samsquanch]

Bolded: Name them. I have Regehr, Volchenkov, Vlasic, Orpik, Staal, Michalek, Pronger and Chara as 'great' shutdown guys. 8 is not many, many more than 7, its just one more.

Reading comprehension is your friend. I said 'Shutdown guys' not 'guys with limited offense'.

Elite defensive D are harder to find than elite puckmovers.

Ill take my 5 over your 6.

Edit: And for gods sake ill include Chara and Pronger too then because they both won the Norris while scoring over 50 points. So lets consider them a moot point please.

 

[trentmccleary]

Why are people selling short the contributions of the defensive defender? Where does this idea that they're a dime-a-dozen originate? Why is a small and defensively average guy with 50 point potential pushed so much harder than a big and defensively sound guy with 30 point potential?

Don't know, don't care. What I do know is that in the last half of the season, Karlsson was that 50+ point offensive D-man. While in Toronto, Schenn was struggling mightily defensively and was relegated to the bottom pairing. That might have more to do people's choices than anything.

 

[General Borschevsky]

Don't know, don't care. What I do know is that in the last half of the season, Karlsson was that 50+ point offensive D-man. While in Toronto, Schenn was struggling mightily defensively and was relegated to the bottom pairing. That might have more to do people's choices than anything.

Funny. In the last half of the season, Schenn was dynamite. I have no idea what you're trying to prove here.

 

[Asquaredx2]

I don't understand why everybody is talking about great offensive game of Erik Goldenboy. Is it to please Sens fans? Karlsson makes more mistakes than Schenn. Sure he is much quicker but being quick doesn't equal being great offensively. He's not a beast offensively, far from it.

Karlsson doesn't have much defensive potential, he just doesn't have the size for that.

Aside from playing defense there's no category where Schenn tops Karlsson.

Karlsson had 32 points in 66 games as a 19-year-old playing his first year in North America last season. That's a 40 point pace. Doughty had 27 points in his first year.

He's also at least 6'0" right now. He's skinny, but that's solved with time.

 

[Samsquanch]

Bolded: Name them. I have Regehr, Volchenkov, Vlasic, Orpik, Staal, Michalek, Pronger and Chara as 'great' shutdown guys. 8 is not many, many more than 7, its just one more.

Reading comprehension is your friend. I said 'Shutdown guys' not 'guys with limited offense'.

Elite defensive D are harder to find than elite puckmovers.

Yes ones who arent offensively capable are rare, i will give you that. Thats why there big question marks with the money they make. But theres many, many defensive dmen a la Shea Weber and Seabrook who can do both.

We arent talking about those types because Luke and Erik arent those types, they dont do both at an elite level.

 

[Hale The Villain]

If Karlsson was given PP time earlier on in the season he could've hit 40 points, Clouston began to entrust EK with the man advantage 2/3 into the season, EK responded by scoring at a ridiculous pace. I can't wait to see what he can do alongside Sergei Gonchar on the PP, should be a lot of fun to watch him develop alongside one of the league's best puckmovers.

EK's defensive problems are overstated, he's outmuscled players along the boards at times, and his hockey sense is through the roof. He prefers the Lidstrom way of using his hockey IQ to defend rather than the Pronger way of smashing bodies through the boards. Some can point out times where he made mistakes and ended up costing the team, but he made just as many creative defensive plays ending up with the puck proceeding to feed a forward with a sick breakout pass. He was our #1 defenseman the past 30 or so games and continued in the playoffs by playing the most minutes out of any defenseman on our team in key situations against the likes of Crosby and Malkin. He did a pretty good job alongside Andy Sutton to shutdown Evgeni Malkin, while our top defensive pairing of Philchenkov couldn't contain Crosby.

You can't teach offensive skill, but you can teach defense. Watching Schenn in Kelowna was a pleasure but it was obvious his offensive potential was limited, which makes his overall potential limited to that of a shutdown defenseman, whereas if Karlsson improves his own zone play (which isn't that bad) he's still a 40-50 point defenseman. He has more potential, and is arguably better right now despite Schenn having more experience.

 

[leafsfuture]

Yes ones who arent offensively capable are rare, i will give you that. Thats why there big question marks with the money they make. But theres many, many defensive dmen a la Shea Weber and Seabrook who can do both.

We arent talking about those types because Luke and Erik arent those types, they dont do both at an elite level.

Wrong.

Weber is very unique. He is very solid defensively, can hit, can fire the puck as good as the best, and is very solid at moving the puck.

Id take him on my team over a Boyle, or Gonchar any day.

The only offensive defeneman id take over Weber is Doughty and Kieth, who really are both offensive and defensive

 

[Samsquanch]

If Karlsson was given PP time earlier on in the season he could've hit 40 points, Clouston began to entrust EK with the man advantage 2/3 into the season, EK responded by scoring at a ridiculous pace. I can't wait to see what he can do alongside Sergei Gonchar on the PP, should be a lot of fun to watch him develop alongside one of the league's best puckmovers.

EK's defensive problems are overstated, he's outmuscled players along the boards at times, and his hockey sense is through the roof. He prefers the Lidstrom way of using his hockey IQ to defend rather than the Pronger way of smashing bodies through the boards. Some can point out times where he made mistakes and ended up costing the team, but he made just as many creative defensive plays ending up with the puck proceeding to feed a forward with a sick breakout pass. He was our #1 defenseman the past 30 or so games and continued in the playoffs by playing the most minutes out of any defenseman on our team in key situations against the likes of Crosby and Malkin. He did a pretty good job alongside Andy Sutton to shutdown Evgeni Malkin, while our top defensive pairing of Philchenkov couldn't contain Crosby.

You can't teach offensive skill, but you can teach defense. Watching Schenn in Kelowna was a pleasure but it was obvious his offensive potential was limited, which makes his overall potential limited to that of a shutdown defenseman, whereas if Karlsson improves his own zone play (which isn't that bad) he's still a 40-50 point defenseman. He has more potential, and is arguably better right now despite Schenn having more experience.

Your whole last paragraph is bang on.

 

[leafsfuture]

Karlsson had 32 points in 66 games as a 19-year-old playing his first year in North America last season. That's a 40 point pace. Doughty had 27 points in his first year.

He's also at least 6'0" right now. He's skinny, but that's solved with time.

Doughty is 10x better defensively than Karlsson.

Thats why Doughty is often compared to Lidstrom. Its because they do everything well. They can move the puck, shoot well, can play defense, and are smart with the puck. Guys like that dont deserve a classification of offensive, or of a shut-down D, as they are both

 

[General Borschevsky]

You can't teach offensive skill, but you can teach defense. Watching Schenn in Kelowna was a pleasure but it was obvious his offensive potential was limited, which makes his overall potential limited to that of a shutdown defenseman, whereas if Karlsson improves his own zone play (which isn't that bad) he's still a 40-50 point defenseman. He has more potential, and is arguably better right now despite Schenn having more experience.

Like anything else, it goes both ways. Defensive players sometimes develop offensive punch after a few years, while offensive talents can learn defence over time. Saying that one aspect of the game is "unlearnable" is ridiculous, and that goes for the Leafs fans saying that Karlsson can't learn defence as well.

I would have thought that Sens fans had learned that you can't always project offensive talent on the heels of a strong rookie season after Meszaros. Let Karlsson continue to develop, saying that hes already a 40-50 point defenceman is just burdening him with expectations that are, frankly, unfair for a player his age.

 

[araisarena]

Doughty is 10x better defensively than Karlsson.

Thats why Doughty is often compared to Lidstrom. Its because they do everything well. They can move the puck, shoot well, can play defense, and are smart with the puck. Guys like that dont deserve a classification of offensive, or of a shut-down D, as they are both

karlsson is like brian campbell, and no one would think brian campbell is better then say, Vlasic, or Hamuis, or Regher, or Foote. All Karlsson does is bring points and puck moving, Schenn is a solid break out passer, has poise, he was just thrown into the NHL too quickly for his offensive game to come out strong right off the bat. again a potential 50 pt dman who cant play defense and is undersized will always be inferior to a potential 40-45 pt guy, 10-15 goal, shutdown guy who will be a top 10 shot blocker, top 10 hits, up their in icetime, and a PK mainstay. if Schenn got the PP time Karlsson got, Schenn would easily have another 5-10 points.

 

[Samsquanch]

Wrong.

Weber is very unique. He is very solid defensively, can hit, can fire the puck as good as the best, and is very solid at moving the puck.

Id take him on my team over a Boyle, or Gonchar any day.

The only offensive defeneman id take over Weber is Doughty and Kieth, who really are both offensive and defensive

Your missing the point here friend. I would take them, Chara, and Pronger over the offensive guys too. They can do both remember?

Im saying of the guys who cant do both, ya know like our thread has been discussing Erik Karlsson and Luke Shenn, Im saying Ill take the offensive guy over the defensive guy. You cant teach puck wizardry.

 

[Samsquanch]

karlsson is like brian campbell, and no one would think brian campbell is better then say, Vlasic, or Hamuis, or Regher, or Foote. All Karlsson does is bring points and puck moving, Schenn is a solid break out passer, has poise, he was just thrown into the NHL too quickly for his offensive game to come out strong right off the bat. again a potential 50 pt dman who cant play defense and is undersized will always be inferior to a potential 40-45 pt guy, 10-15 goal, shutdown guy who will be a top 10 shot blocker, top 10 hits, up their in icetime, and a PK mainstay. if Schenn got the PP time Karlsson got, Schenn would easily have another 5-10 points.

Lol what if Karlsson turns out to be better than campbell and is say a Gonchar or Keith level of offence. Ill take that over anything you named. And by you naming all of them (Foote mainly) you are implying Luke Shenn may reach that level so dont say Im reaching by naming who I did.

 

[bobermay]

I can't beleive that people are labeling Schenn as just a shutdown defender...

He's only 20, and has more potential than that. He spends extra time after practice working on his shot and offensive game.

Most shut-down D don't rack up many points, Schenn got 17 as a 20 year old.... 30-40 points isn't out of the question for this kid in a few years.

People on both sides are putting their blinders on, and not looking at the full picture when analyzing each player's potential.

I like the Brian Campbell comparison for Karlsson, who might even become even better offensively, and Adam Foote for Luke Schenn, who might even become even better offensively.

 

[bobermay]

Your missing the point here friend. I would take them, Chara, and Pronger over the offensive guys too. They can do both remember?

Im saying of the guys who cant do both, ya know like our thread has been discussing Erik Karlsson and Luke Shenn, Im saying Ill take the offensive guy over the defensive guy. You cant teach puck wizardry.

You can't teach it, but a player can develop it.
IMO, its harder to be a stud defensively, positionally, physically, the whole package than being a stud offensively, passing and shooting, and finding the open player.

 

[araisarena]

Lol what if Karlsson turns out to be better than campbell and is say a Gonchar or Keith level of offence. Ill take that over anything you named. And by you naming all of them (Foote mainly) you are implying Luke Shenn may reach that level so dont say Im reaching by naming who I did.

Karlsson wont be like Keith, thats out of the question, and neither Gonchar, cus Gonchar is probably one of the best offensive defensemen to ever play the game, Sens fans are too hyped up over Karlsson and his rookie season in which he put up 26 pts and had a good playoffs, then again Higgins was on fire at the end of the 06-07 season and everyone thought he was the next best thing. Schenn is proven talent and has brought it every night since his rookie year on a worse team. Karlsson plays with Alfie, Kovalev, Michalek, Spezza on the PP. Schenn didnt play on the PP. Let Karlsson play a full season, get his azz knocked around once or twice, lose confidence, and then make this thread again. Schenn went through hell the first half the season as a hockey player but got his confidence back and had a hell of a finish.

 

[Samsquanch]

I can't beleive that people are labeling Schenn as just a shutdown defender...

He's only 20, and has more potential than that. He spends extra time after practice working on his shot and offensive game.

Most shut-down D don't rack up many points, Schenn got 17 as a 20 year old.... 30-40 points isn't out of the question for this kid in a few years.

People on both sides are putting their blinders on, and not looking at the full picture when analyzing each player's potential.

I like the Brian Campbell comparison for Karlsson, who might even become even better offensively, and Adam Foote for Luke Schenn, who might even become even better offensively.

About as fair as people naming EK a chronic defensive liability. But please dont argue with the fact its much easier to learn how to play defensively and very difficult to suddenly turn into an offensive wizard.

Im not saying Shenn is stuck a defensive D for his whole career, but EK has skills you cant teach. While EK probably wont be destroying people physically, he will be adequate defensively while having a canyon sized gap between him and Shenn offensively.

 

[bobermay]

Oh, and LMFAO at the Matt Greene comparisson for Luke Schenn:

Matt Greene (NHL Debut at 22): 308 GP 5G 36P 399 PIM (Over 5 seasons)
Luke Schenn (NHL Debut at 19): 149 GP 7G 31P 121 PIM (Over 2 seasons)

 

[araisarena]

About as fair as people naming EK a chronic defensive liability. But please dont argue with the fact its much easier to learn how to play defensively and very difficult to suddenly turn into an offensive wizard.

Im not saying Shenn is stuck a defensive D for his whole career, but EK has skills you cant teach. While EK probably wont be destroying people physically, he will be adequate defensively while having a canyon sized gap between him and Shenn offensively.[/QUOTE

Actually offense is much easier to teach and learn then defense, because offense its all about physical tools, shooting, passing, with defense its about how ur brain is working and having it to work quickly, anticipation, defensive awareness, where is the forward going to go, how do i take away his shot, my angles, my positioning, defense takes years of mastering and video tape watching, and its nice to see young guys like Schenn, Gudbranson, get drafted high because they have a niche for defense which many young defensemen just have a tough time with. Schenn's offense will only get better, his shot has improved, he has the hockey sense, he has the passing ability and break out, his offense has to do with confidence, and as he gets older, he'll get more confident in his offense. Karlsson is undersized, so will need time in the weight room and video room to become better defensively

 

[RStar*]

Karlsson had 32 points in 66 games as a 19-year-old playing his first year in North America last season. That's a 40 point pace. Doughty had 27 points in his first year.

He's also at least 6'0" right now. He's skinny, but that's solved with time.

Oh.... I guess he's on pace to be as good or better than Drew Doughty then.

Erik Karlsson is easily the most overrated young defenseman on these boards. I've seen him called a better Mike Green, compared to Lidstrom, Doughty, etc.

He is going to be none of those things.

 

[PhillyFrisco]

Karlsson had 32 points in 66 games as a 19-year-old playing his first year in North America last season. That's a 40 point pace. Doughty had 27 points in his first year.

He's also at least 6'0" right now. He's skinny, but that's solved with time.

LOL. YA, Karlsson will definitely be better than Drew Doughty

 

[bobermay]

About as fair as people naming EK a chronic defensive liability. But please dont argue with the fact its much easier to learn how to play defensively and very difficult to suddenly turn into an offensive wizard.

Im not saying Shenn is stuck a defensive D for his whole career, but EK has skills you cant teach. While EK probably wont be destroying people physically, he will be adequate defensively while having a canyon sized gap between him and Shenn offensively.

I disagree.

For instance, many defenders go back to junior to develop their offensive game, rarely one goes back to develop their defensive game. Neither can be taught, but it seems like an offensive game is easier to learn with experience.

I don't think people on these boards value defense enough. Its extremely hard to shutdown players, and positioning and defensive instincts are very hard to learn and master.

 

[RStar*]

About as fair as people naming EK a chronic defensive liability. But please dont argue with the fact its much easier to learn how to play defensively and very difficult to suddenly turn into an offensive wizard.

Im not saying Shenn is stuck a defensive D for his whole career, but EK has skills you cant teach. While EK probably wont be destroying people physically, he will be adequate defensively while having a canyon sized gap between him and Shenn offensively.[/QUOTE

Actually offense is much easier to teach and learn then defense, because offense its all about physical tools, shooting, passing, with defense its about how ur brain is working and having it to work quickly, anticipation, defensive awareness, where is the forward going to go, how do i take away his shot, my angles, my positioning, defense takes years of mastering and video tape watching, and its nice to see young guys like Schenn, Gudbranson, get drafted high because they have a niche for defense which many young defensemen just have a tough time with. Schenn's offense will only get better, his shot has improved, he has the hockey sense, he has the passing ability and break out, his offense has to do with confidence, and as he gets older, he'll get more confident in his offense. Karlsson is undersized, so will need time in the weight room and video room to become better defensively

Nope. They can teach Karlsson elite defense in a weekend seminar, and then he will go on to become the greatest defenseman in the league. That's not my opinion, its a direct quote from the Sens board.

 

[Samsquanch]

You can't teach it, but a player can develop it.
IMO, its harder to be a stud defensively, positionally, physically, the whole package than being a stud offensively, passing and shooting, and finding the open player.

And thats why your wrong.

When Komasirek/Volchenkov make as much money as they do it draws serious questions, and many gms refuse to do it.

When you are a skilled player, and can put points on the board, you are paid good money and no one questions it. Its not like that because its easier than being sound defensively, its like that because talent is something you cant teach and theres not talent everywhere.

If you arent talented, you play defensively. If you do both then bam you've got a winner

Really, you gotta open your eyes man. I bet you were ok with John Maddens contract right, and Jeff Fingers?

 

[RStar*]

And thats why your wrong.

When Komasirek/Volchenkov make as much money as they do it draws serious questions, and many gms refuse to do it.

When you are a skilled player, and can put points on the board, you are paid good money and no one questions it. Its not like that because its easier than being sound defensively, its like that because talent is something you cant teach and theres not talent everywhere.

If you arent talented, you play defensively. If you do both then bam you've got a winner

Really, you gotta open your eyes man. I bet you were ok with John Maddens contract right, and Jeff Fingers?

I love how defense doesn't matter to some Sens fans now that their best defensive player has left.