Erik Karlsson vs Luke Schenn

[Garl]

I don't understand why everybody is talking about great defensive game of Luke Goldenboy. Is it to please Leafs fans? Schenn makes almost as many mistakes as Karlsson. Sure he is much more physical but being physical doesn't equal being great defensivly. He's not a beast defensivly, far from eat.

Karlsson is Stralman's clone? They are somewhat alike, but there's 4 years difference between them. Bad comparsion.

Schenn doesn't have much offensive potential, he just doesn't have tools for that.

Aside from physical play there's no category where Schenn tops Karlsson.

 

[Bravid Nonahan]

Not a fan of either team but I take Karlsson by a country mile.

Schenn has Matt Greene upside, Karlsson has Mike Green potential.

I'm absolutely amazed watching Karlsson play hockey. I think he feels he's the best player on the ice no matter who he is playing against. Just unreal confidence in that kid. His hockey sense truly is A+. Still makes poor decisions some times but it's because he's overly confident. Future 65+ point D.

Not much to say about Schenn. Decent stay-at-home D that doesn't have the same meanness that Foote had. Should develop into a solid #3

First bolded comment: Lolwut? Schenn is already better than Matt Greene, give your head a shake.

Second bolded comment: If you don't have much to say about Schenn, you probably haven't watched much of him.

 

[syc]

Not really.

Nothing on the Leafs impresses me. On the the Sens, not much either.

Biggest difference in the two clubs is Eugene Melnick >>>>>>>MLSE

I guess were not speaking about business ethics then.

 

[Garl]

First bolded comment: Lolwut? Schenn is already better than Matt Greene, give your head a shake.

Matt Greene is a solid stay at home defenseman. Schenn is not better than him yet.

 

[Analyzer*]

One's a small, skilled offensive defenseman, one's a stay-at-home brusing defense man. Where's the comparison ? This is comparing apples and Orangers.

Jared Cowen Vs Schenn might be a better one.

 

[Bravid Nonahan]

I don't understand why everybody is talking about great offensive game of Erik Goldenboy. Is it to please Sens fans? Karlsson makes more mistakes than Schenn. Sure he is much quicker but being quick doesn't equal being great offensively. He's not a beast offensively, far from it.

Karlsson doesn't have much defensive potential, he just doesn't have the size for that.

Aside from playing defense there's no category where Schenn tops Karlsson.

 

[Bravid Nonahan]

Matt Greene is a solid stay at home defenseman. Schenn is not better than him yet.

You've got to be kidding me.

 

[TheOriginalSilf*]

All Melnyk cares about is bringing a championship to Ottawa and the only thing MLSE cares about is making money.

Smartest post on HF today.

 

[Dutch Dreams]

I dont see how Schenn's potential is "thru the roof".

Maybe defensively but even still if he doesnt drastically improve his skating and agility he's never going to be this beast defensively that everyone just automatically assume's he will become. Just because you throw bone crushing hits once every two games doesnt mean you are some defensive guru. I have been less then impressed with Schenn's supposed elite defensive accumen. He has good potential but even the current GM has said he will most likely be a #2 defenceman. Sorry but when I think of a player with potential thru the roof, I think of players who have the chance to be a bonifide frontline #1 rearguard. Again if he doesnt improve his skating bigtime alot of Leaf fans are going to be dissapointed in the future.

True. I don't think anybody's claiming that he's a no. 1, and if they are then who knows. He just doesn't have the all-around game to be anymore than a complimentary piece to a more offensive guy, kind of like a Seabrook type.

At this point he'll develop into a solid no. 2 defensive guy. He is truly a shutdown man in the making. He already showed flashes of that potential his rookie year, shutting down the best of them game in game out, and his mobility and offensive game are even improving noticably.

Karlsson certainly has the offensive game to carry more of an entire defensive-core, but he's certainly not an elite all-around guy. He'll need a good compliment to his game. He could be a no. 1, but certainly not one of consensus.

 

[Dutch Dreams]

One's a small, skilled offensive defenseman, one's a stay-at-home brusing defense man. Where's the comparison ? This is comparing apples and Orangers.

Jared Cowen Vs Schenn might be a better one.

http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=801570

It was a thread of yesterday's and someone still couldn't pass up a ridiculous comparison.

 

[Garl]

I don't understand why everybody is talking about great offensive game of Erik Goldenboy. Is it to please Sens fans? Karlsson makes more mistakes than Schenn. Sure he is much quicker but being quick doesn't equal being great offensively. He's not a beast offensively, far from it.

Karlsson doesn't have much defensive potential, he just doesn't have the size for that.

Aside from playing defense there's no category where Schenn tops Karlsson.

1. He was best defenseman at U18 WJC and U20 WJC and lead his team in scoring.
2. He had offensive breakout in NHL last year.
3. He was PPG in AHL last year.

Offensivly Karlsson probably makes more mistakes than Schenn, but that's because he actually does something offensivly.

Size? Yeah like 6'3 225 Nicklas Lidstrom or 6'9 300 Scott Niedermayer or 7'5 455 Duncan Keth. Size is the key.)))

With the last statement I can agree, but Schenn has a long way to go.

You've got to be kidding me.

Not really, I just look at Schenn without two Leafs on my glasses blocking the view. Heck Even Leafs agreed that he struggled for the most part of last season.

 

[Voodoo Child]

One's a small, skilled offensive defenseman, one's a stay-at-home brusing defense man. Where's the comparison ? This is comparing apples and Orangers.

Jared Cowen Vs Schenn might be a better one.

There was one of those. Inexplicably, most people picked the guy who didn't step into the league at age 18 and not look out of place.

I'll call it right now, Jared Cowen is going to be the next Brian Lee, and that's not a compliment.

Leafs fan, saying Karlsson but barely (for the Leafs; he'd be the perfect Kaberle replacement, though if we didn't have Komi and Beauchemin I'd vote Schenn).

Why are people selling short the contributions of the defensive defender? Where does this idea that they're a dime-a-dozen originate? Why is a small and defensively average guy with 50 point potential pushed so much harder than a big and defensively sound guy with 30 point potential?

If anything, offensive D are more common than shutdown guys, and elite versions of both (see: Schenn and Karlsson in 4 years) are equally rare.

 

[Dutch Dreams]

Not really, I just look at Schenn without two Leafs on my glasses blocking the view. Heck Even Leafs òû agreed that he struggled for the most part of last season.

I hate these statements of indifference. What's to say an Ottawa fan doesn't look at their own prospects from the disconnected reality of the senate? Looking at another team's prospect from a supposed state of indifference does not eliminate that indifference in regards to your own prospects.

 

[Dutch Dreams]

There was one of those. Inexplicably, most people picked the guy who didn't step into the league at age 18 and not look out of place.

I'll call it right now, Jared Cowen is going to be the next Brian Lee, and that's not a compliment.

Leafs fan, saying Karlsson but barely (for the Leafs; he'd be the perfect Kaberle replacement, though if we didn't have Komi and Beauchemin I'd vote Schenn).

Why are people selling short the contributions of the defensive defender? Where does this idea that they're a dime-a-dozen originate? Why is a small and defensively average guy with 50 point potential pushed so much harder than a big and defensively sound guy with 30 point potential?

If anything, offensive D are more common than shutdown guys, and elite versions of both (see: Schenn and Karlsson in 4 years) are equally rare.

Truth.

 

[Bravid Nonahan]

Not really, I just look at Schenn without two Leafs on my glasses blocking the view. Heck Even Leafs agreed that he struggled for the most part of last season.

I'll post what I posted in a different thread:

First 20 games of the season: 0 goals 2 assists, 2 points, -6

Last 59 games of the season: 5 goals, 10 assists, 15 points, +8

Luke Schenn struggled for the first quarter of the season. Not the most part. One doesn't improve their goals and points totals, and improve their +/- by 14 from the previous season by "struggling for the most part of the season"

 

[milbs06]

whos luke shenn?

 

[Garl]

I hate these statements of indifference. What's to say an Ottawa fan doesn't look at their own prospects from the disconnected reality of the senate? Looking at another team's prospect from a supposed state of indifference does not eliminate that indifference in regards to your own prospects.

Well, I am a Wings fan though.

I'll post what I posted in a different thread:

First 20 games of the season: 0 goals 2 assists, 2 points, -6

Last 59 games of the season: 5 goals, 10 assists, 15 points, +8

Luke Schenn struggled for the first quarter of the season. Not the most part. One doesn't improve their goals and points totals, and improve their +/- by 14 from the previous season by "struggling for the most part of the season"

So you are saying he was good last year? Well lying to yourself is not a greatest sport really. Schenn didn't had a good season. Sure he improved from disasterous beggining but still, too many mistakes for s supposed defensive stud. He's young so that's understandable.However defense is his bread, he will never contribute offensivly too much, baring a total break out.

 

[Samsquanch]

There was one of those. Inexplicably, most people picked the guy who didn't step into the league at age 18 and not look out of place.

I'll call it right now, Jared Cowen is going to be the next Brian Lee, and that's not a compliment.

Leafs fan, saying Karlsson but barely (for the Leafs; he'd be the perfect Kaberle replacement, though if we didn't have Komi and Beauchemin I'd vote Schenn).

Why are people selling short the contributions of the defensive defender? Where does this idea that they're a dime-a-dozen originate? Why is a small and defensively average guy with 50 point potential pushed so much harder than a big and defensively sound guy with 30 point potential?

If anything, offensive D are more common than shutdown guys, and elite versions of both (see: Schenn and Karlsson in 4 years) are equally rare.

Gold my friend. There are 2-3 defensive dmen with limited offensive ability on every team. There is not a Gonchar/Lidstrom/Zubov on on every team. LOL if you really believe that.

Edit: FYI 7 dmen scored more than 50 points last year. There are many, many more than 7 great shut down men in the league.

 

[leafsfuture]

Gold my friend. There are 2-3 defensive dmen with limited offensive ability on every team. There is not a Gonchar/Lidstrom/Zubov on on every team. LOL if you really believe that.

Edit: FYI 7 dmen scored more than 50 points last year. There are many, many more than 7 great shut down men in the league.

How can you say that. Your only basis for saying that is that you cant measure the success of being a great shutdown D.

You can also say that their are only 5 elite shutdown D in the league: Pronger, Chara, Volchenkov, Zbynek Michalek, Vlasic.

Michalek was huge in Pheonix pushing Detroit to 7 games, and getting the Coyotes with little offence into the playoffs. Vlasic is the most underrated player on the Sharks, as he gives them defensive stability. Chara and Pronger are arguably two of the top 5 D in the game.

 

[weems]

How can you say that. Your only basis for saying that is that you cant measure the success of being a great shutdown D.

You can also say that their are only 5 elite shutdown D in the league: Pronger, Chara, Volchenkov, Zbynek Michalek, Vlasic.

Michalek was huge in Pheonix pushing Detroit to 7 games, and getting the Coyotes with little offence into the playoffs. Vlasic is the most underrated player on the Sharks, as he gives them defensive stability. Chara and Pronger are arguably two of the top 5 D in the game.

How can Vlasic or Michalek be called a "elite shutdown" D and guys like Robyn Regher, Willie Mitchell, Chris Philips, Brooks Orpik be left off that list?

 

[Samsquanch]

How can you say that. Your only basis for saying that is that you cant measure the success of being a great shutdown D.

You can also say that their are only 5 elite shutdown D in the league: Pronger, Chara, Volchenkov, Zbynek Michalek, Vlasic.

Michalek was huge in Pheonix pushing Detroit to 7 games, and getting the Coyotes with little offence into the playoffs. Vlasic is the most underrated player on the Sharks, as he gives them defensive stability. Chara and Pronger are arguably two of the top 5 D in the game.

Ok lets try this.

Put your top 5 defensive d against this

Lidstrom
Keith
Gonchar
Boyle
Kaberle (just for you leafer )

Which do you take. For real though, try to wade through your BS for a second.

And also you cant include Pronger and Chara because they can actually handle the puck, so we'll both exclude them for this reason.

 

[Samsquanch]

How can Vlasic or Michalek be called a "elite shutdown" D and guys like Robyn Regher, Willie Mitchell, Chris Philips, Brooks Orpik be left off that list?

Because hes wrong. And your post also further adds to my point that although not a dime a dozen, defensive dmen are not nearly as valuable as skilled players and can be found everywhere throughout the league.


cant believe I have to argue this

 

[leafsfuture]

Because hes wrong. And your post also further adds to my point that although not a dime a dozen, defensive dmen are not nearly as valuable as skilled players and can be found everywhere throughout the league.


cant believe I have to argue this

Well firstly, Lidstrom didnt even hit 50 pts this year.

As for Gonchar, Boyle, Kaberle, Green, Streit, Enstrom, Nieds, Visnovksy, all of them were on teams that either sucked or lost in the playoffs because they couldnt defend.

Boyle and Gonchar were useless in there series's against Chicago and Montreal. Green was horrible against Montreal.

The only good PMD whos team was sucessful was Kieth. And remember, he can be as agressive as he can because hes got Seabrook backing him up.

Pronger was a huge reason why NJD could not score for beans against Boucher. Michalek was PHX best player, Hal Gill made Sidney Crosby a non-factor, and absoluty shut down Ovy in the final 3 games of their series.

PMD's are flashier, and get more credit, but its the mean in your face D that help teams win Cups.

Its why developing teams take shutdown D early in drafts. Leafs did so with Schenn, St Louis did so with Jonhson, and Florida just did so with Gudbrandson, passing over a way more prettier player in Fowler

 

[Voodoo Child]

Gold my friend. There are 2-3 defensive dmen with limited offensive ability on every team. There is not a Gonchar/Lidstrom/Zubov on on every team. LOL if you really believe that.

Edit: FYI 7 dmen scored more than 50 points last year. There are many, many more than 7 great shut down men in the league.

Bolded: Name them. I have Regehr, Volchenkov, Vlasic, Orpik, Staal, Michalek, Pronger and Chara as 'great' shutdown guys. 8 is not many, many more than 7, its just one more.

Reading comprehension is your friend. I said 'Shutdown guys' not 'guys with limited offense'.

Elite defensive D are harder to find than elite puckmovers.

 

[Samsquanch]

Well firstly, Lidstrom didnt even hit 50 pts this year.

As for Gonchar, Boyle, Kaberle, Green, Streit, Enstrom, Nieds, Visnovksy, all of them were on teams that either sucked or lost in the playoffs because they couldnt defend.

Boyle and Gonchar were useless in there series's against Chicago and Montreal. Green was horrible against Montreal.

The only good PMD whos team was sucessful was Kieth. And remember, he can be as agressive as he can because hes got Seabrook backing him up.

Pronger was a huge reason why NJD could not score for beans against Boucher. Michalek was PHX best player, Hal Gill made Sidney Crosby a non-factor, and absoluty shut down Ovy in the final 3 games of their series.

PMD's are flashier, and get more credit, but its the mean in your face D that help teams win Cups.

Its why developing teams take shutdown D early in drafts. Leafs did so with Schenn, St Louis did so with Jonhson, and Florida just did so with Gudbrandson, passing over a way more prettier player in Fowler

You didnt make a list of your top 5 d? Honestly man, I can find flaws in players, you just have to list them for me. My list is better than yours, trust me.

And stop mentioning Pronger. Schenn cannot handle the puck like Pronger, so why compare him??

Those brusing dmen win cups eh?! Lol.

Tell that to

2009-2010 Duncan Keith
2008-2009 Gonchar
2007-2008 Lidstrom
2006-2007 Niedermayer

All undisputed #1 Dmen on their winning teams. Make up that list dude, it will be laughable to compare. Defensive d are vital to championships, but you cant be a true #1 if you cant handle the puck like a pro.