Erik Karlsson vs Luke Schenn

[Samsquanch]

Actually offense is much easier to teach and learn then defense, because offense its all about physical tools, shooting, passing, with defense its about how ur brain is working and having it to work quickly, anticipation, defensive awareness, where is the forward going to go, how do i take away his shot, my angles, my positioning, defense takes years of mastering and video tape watching, and its nice to see young guys like Schenn, Gudbranson, get drafted high because they have a niche for defense which many young defensemen just have a tough time with. Schenn's offense will only get better, his shot has improved, he has the hockey sense, he has the passing ability and break out, his offense has to do with confidence, and as he gets older, he'll get more confident in his offense. Karlsson is undersized, so will need time in the weight room and video room to become better defensively

Seriously



You honestly believe the stuff you write? And use a damn period once and a while...

 

[Samsquanch]

I love how defense doesn't matter to some Sens fans now that their best defensive player has left.

You would pay volchenkov that much? Cool bro. And yea look at all those quotes where I say disregard defense. Im saying offense takes talent to pull off, and is harder to find than defense. If everyone had lots of talent, it would be a pretty boring league no? Theres a place for defensive dmen, it just comes secondary to talented players.

 

[araisarena]

You would pay volchenkov that much? Cool bro. And yea look at all those quotes where I say disregard defense. Im saying offense takes talent to pull off, and is harder to find than defense. If everyone had lots of talent, it would be a pretty boring league no? Theres a place for defensive dmen, it just comes secondary to talented players.

puck moving defensemen are only as good as their forwards. toronto fans know first hand, Kaberle had 30 pts in 30 games when guys like Hagman and Kessel were puttin the puck in the net, when the offense dried up, he only had 19 points the rest of the way. And defenseman are regarded to as the guys who play defense. why in the hell would you want a defensemen who cant play d. Karlsson needs to get better defensively to succeed in the NHL, Schenn, doesnt have to improve his offense, his offense is just a bonus, and the Leafs will cash in on that bonus in the next couple of seasons

 

[trentmccleary]

Funny. In the last half of the season, Schenn was dynamite. I have no idea what you're trying to prove here.

I didn't hear the announcers complaining about him as much in the second half, but I wouldn't call his 2nd half dynamite.

I would have thought that Sens fans had learned that you can't always project offensive talent on the heels of a strong rookie season after Meszaros. Let Karlsson continue to develop, saying that hes already a 40-50 point defenceman is just burdening him with expectations that are, frankly, unfair for a player his age.

Karlsson has a lot more hockey sense that Meszaros and looks like the most offensively talented D-man we've ever had. At the very least he shows flashes of being as good as the best offensive D-men we've had while offering dimensions they never had.

karlsson is like brian campbell, and no one would think brian campbell is better then say, Vlasic, or Hamuis, or Regher, or Foote. All Karlsson does is bring points and puck moving, Schenn is a solid break out passer, has poise, he was just thrown into the NHL too quickly for his offensive game to come out strong right off the bat. again a potential 50 pt dman who cant play defense and is undersized will always be inferior to a potential 40-45 pt guy, 10-15 goal, shutdown guy who will be a top 10 shot blocker, top 10 hits, up their in icetime, and a PK mainstay. if Schenn got the PP time Karlsson got, Schenn would easily have another 5-10 points.

Wow! Well at least you left that 5 point gap between Schenn and Karlsson's offensive potential... otherwise people would have just thought you were a massive homer.

I can't beleive that people are labeling Schenn as just a shutdown defender...

He's only 20, and has more potential than that. He spends extra time after practice working on his shot and offensive game.

Most shut-down D don't rack up many points, Schenn got 17 as a 20 year old.... 30-40 points isn't out of the question for this kid in a few years.

Volchenkov had 16 points in his rookie season, so did Phillips.
Willie Mitchell had 10 points in 33 games.
Barret Jackman had 19.
Regehr had 5 goals and 12 points in 57 games.
Etc.

Karlsson wont be like Keith, thats out of the question, and neither Gonchar, cus Gonchar is probably one of the best offensive defensemen to ever play the game, Sens fans are too hyped up over Karlsson and his rookie season in which he put up 26 pts and had a good playoffs, then again Higgins was on fire at the end of the 06-07 season and everyone thought he was the next best thing. Schenn is proven talent and has brought it every night since his rookie year on a worse team. Karlsson plays with Alfie, Kovalev, Michalek, Spezza on the PP. Schenn didnt play on the PP. Let Karlsson play a full season, get his azz knocked around once or twice, lose confidence, and then make this thread again. Schenn went through hell the first half the season as a hockey player but got his confidence back and had a hell of a finish.

Say wut? How is Schenn a proven talent and Karlsson not?

 

[araisarena]

I didn't hear the announcers complaining about him as much in the second half, but I wouldn't call his 2nd half dynamite.



Karlsson has a lot more hockey sense that Meszaros and looks like the most offensively talented D-man we've ever had. At the very least he shows flashes of being as good as the best offensive D-men we've had while offering dimensions they never had.



Wow! Well at least you left that 5 point gap between Schenn and Karlsson's offensive potential... otherwise people would have just thought you were a massive homer.



Volchenkov had 16 points in his rookie season, so did Phillips.
Willie Mitchell had 10 points in 33 games.
Barret Jackman had 19.
Regehr had 5 goals and 12 points in 57 games.
Etc.



Say wut? How is Schenn a proven talent and Karlsson not?

do i need to put up the Schenn demolishing Malkin, Crosby, etc, the shift against the Islanders, the 2 bullet shots top shelf against the Sens, do you want me to do this. Schenn>Karlsson in 08, 09, 10, and the future. Theres a reason why Schenn went 5th and Karlsson 15th overall.

 

[Samsquanch]

puck moving defensemen are only as good as their forwards. toronto fans know first hand, Kaberle had 30 pts in 30 games when guys like Hagman and Kessel were puttin the puck in the net, when the offense dried up, he only had 19 points the rest of the way. And defenseman are regarded to as the guys who play defense. why in the hell would you want a defensemen who cant play d. Karlsson needs to get better defensively to succeed in the NHL, Schenn, doesnt have to improve his offense, his offense is just a bonus, and the Leafs will cash in on that bonus in the next couple of seasons

Lol EK has already arguably had more success in the league by being the #1 on an actual playoff team. He can play defense, your just really steamed we have the better dman. Once you come to terms with this, we can all stop arguing and finally get out of the house and go for some drinks. It is saturday night after all

Edit: And safe to say the draft might go a little different if it was redone. Shenn might stil go ahead, but everyone knows EK has the homerun potential.

 

[Voodoo Child]

Saying offense is easier to teach than defense is a paradox.

If offense is easier to teach then defense, than how to you teach players the defense to offend against all of the offense?

I'd say defense is harder to teach, things like positioning, instincts and the whole thought process behind it. It's harder to teach but almost anybody can do it.

Whereas offense is easier to teach, but it's very much a 'if you have it you have it, if you don't, you don't' type thing. It's easier to teach but not everybody can do it.

HF is funny though. Last year Schenn was overrated now he's underrated, while Karlsson was underrated and now he's overrated.

For simplicity's sake;

Karlsson > Schenn IF:

Schenn never gets more than 20 points and doesn't improve his skating and shot while Karlsson becomes the next Dan Boyle.

Schenn > Karlsson IF:

Schenn becomes a 30-35 point shutdown bruiser who hovers around +15 yearly and Karlsson becomes the next Anton Stralman.

 

[Samsquanch]

I didn't hear the announcers complaining about him as much in the second half, but I wouldn't call his 2nd half dynamite.



Karlsson has a lot more hockey sense that Meszaros and looks like the most offensively talented D-man we've ever had. At the very least he shows flashes of being as good as the best offensive D-men we've had while offering dimensions they never had.



Wow! Well at least you left that 5 point gap between Schenn and Karlsson's offensive potential... otherwise people would have just thought you were a massive homer.



Volchenkov had 16 points in his rookie season, so did Phillips.
Willie Mitchell had 10 points in 33 games.
Barret Jackman had 19.
Regehr had 5 goals and 12 points in 57 games.
Etc.



Say wut? How is Schenn a proven talent and Karlsson not?

That was pretty damn funny

 

[bobermay]

Volchenkov had 16 points in his rookie season, so did Phillips.
Willie Mitchell had 10 points in 33 games.
Barret Jackman had 19.
Regehr had 5 goals and 12 points in 57 games.
Etc.

Shea Weber: 18 points
Brian Campbell: 11 points in first 45 games played
Duncan Keith: 21 points
Alexander Edler: 3 in 22, then 20 in 75
Zdeno Chara: 1 in 25, then 8 in 59
Jay Bouwmeester: 16 in 82
Sheldon Souray: 10 in 60, than 8 in 70
Gonchar 7 in 31
Etc.

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

Shea Weber: 18 points
Brian Campbell: 11 points in first 45 games played
Duncan Keith: 21 points
Alexander Edler: 3 in 22, then 20 in 75
Zdeno Chara: 1 in 25, then 8 in 59
Jay Bouwmeester: 16 in 82
Sheldon Souray: 10 in 60, than 8 in 70
Gonchar 7 in 31
Etc.

I'm sorry but may i ask what you're trying to prove here?

 

[Samsquanch]

Shea Weber: 18 points
Brian Campbell: 11 points in first 45 games played
Duncan Keith: 21 points
Alexander Edler: 3 in 22, then 20 in 75
Zdeno Chara: 1 in 25, then 8 in 59
Jay Bouwmeester: 16 in 82
Sheldon Souray: 10 in 60, than 8 in 70
Gonchar 7 in 31
Etc.

Difference being those guys were known for having offensive upside. Shenn will learn after a few years to stick to what got him there and be a great shut down guy. He's not going to spontaneously turn into an offensive force when he's never shown any glimmers of it.

 

[bobermay]

I'm sorry but may i ask what you're trying to prove here?

I was trying to prove that you cannot say that Schenn is strictly a defensive defecman. The poster I quoted gave examples of defencman who had similar numbers of Schenn, and I did too..

 

[bobermay]

Difference being those guys were known for having offensive upside. Shenn will learn after a few years to stick to what got him there and be a great shut down guy. He's not going to spontaneously turn into an offensive force when he's never shown any glimmers of it.

And what credentials did you use to determine this?

And this shows a glimpse of his offensive upside, no?

 

[ReginKarlssonLehner]

I was trying to prove that you cannot say that Schenn is strictly a defensive defecman. The poster I quoted gave examples of defencman who had similar numbers of Schenn, and I did too..

But you do realize everyone of those players you posted were well known for their offensive potential? Lool! Fail bro.

 

[bobermay]

But you do realize everyone of those players you posted were well known for their offensive potential? Lool! Fail bro.

And you realize that a lot of them didn't start to develop an offensive tallent until they were 20-21, spending extra time in junior....

 

[Samsquanch]

And what credentials did you use to determine this?


And this shows a glimpse of his offensive upside, no?

No, 17 pts does not indicate anything at all. This is a player who's career has been scouted very well, and he has not shown he has any offensive upside at any level. Those players have.

 

[Knave]

I love how defense doesn't matter to some Sens fans now that their best defensive player has left.

People loved Volchenkov because he could block shots and make big hits.

He was a solid defensive player, no doubt about that.

Personally I have always thought Phillips was better defensively and not having Volchenkov means no more Volchenkov-Phillips pairing which was a nightmare at times. I want to see our top line playing in the offensive zone, not the defensive zone because the defense can't make a pass to save their lives.

 

[Langdon Alger]

I hope this thread stays open and continues through the season. It would be interesting to compare them as the year goes along, although like many have said before it is a strange comparison in the first place. As a Sens fan obviously I watch Karlsson more than Schenn, so it tough for me to give a fair opinion of Schenn.

What I propose is simple. Let's all try to watch the other player as much as possible throughout the season. I don't think it's fair to base it all on stats. I'm not saying all of you are, but I'm sure some people do.

What I don't like about these threads is that a lot of people are not capable of being objective. The team the player plays for really influences people's point of view. Example, if Toronto took Cowen and Ottawa took Kadri in last year's draft we would here Ottawa fans hyping Kadri while Toronto fans cut him down. Ottawa fans would point out Cowen's injury while Leaf fans would be excited about a Cowen-Schenn pairing.

 

[araisarena]

No, 17 pts does not indicate anything at all. This is a player who's career has been scouted very well, and he has not shown he has any offensive upside at any level. Those players have.

if schenn's first goal against ottawa doesnt show offensive potential, idk what does. and schenn has always been said by scouts to have untapped offensive potential. as the leafs get better, so will his offense. karlsson was brought into a good position to succeed offensively. Ron Wilson and the coaching staff have been working with Schenn every post practice to work on his shot and offensive puck moving. It will come. Im not saying Karlsson is a bad player, hes a talented guy and i would wish the leafs had him as a replacement for kaberle when kaberle retires a leaf(yes retire a leaf) but schenn has potential and thats why he went 5th overall. Sens and Canadians fans need to get over the crazy thought that more points as a DMAN, or solid playoffs concludes that player A is better than player B. (Montreal im talking about Subban) Schenn is dynamite, and will be one of the best defensemen in the league in his prime, represent Canada in the olympics, and hopefully win a stanley cup in toronto, barring injury.

 

[bobermay]

No, 17 pts does not indicate anything at all. This is a player who's career has been scouted very well, and he has not shown he has any offensive upside at any level. Those players have.

Yeah, thats why Chara was drafted in the third, Weber in the 2nd, Campbell in the 6th, Souray in the 3rd, Edler in the 3rd... etc.

 

[SpezDispenser]

It's still Karlsson.

 

[bobermay]

if schenn's first goal against ottawa doesnt show offensive potential, idk what does. and schenn has always been said by scouts to have untapped offensive potential. as the leafs get better, so will his offense. karlsson was brought into a good position to succeed offensively. Ron Wilson and the coaching staff have been working with Schenn every post practice to work on his shot and offensive puck moving. It will come. Im not saying Karlsson is a bad player, hes a talented guy and i would wish the leafs had him as a replacement for kaberle when kaberle retires a leaf(yes retire a leaf) but schenn has potential and thats why he went 5th overall. Sens and Canadians fans need to get over the crazy thought that more points as a DMAN, or solid playoffs concludes that player A is better than player B. (Montreal im talking about Subban) Schenn is dynamite, and will be one of the best defensemen in the league in his prime, represent Canada in the olympics, and hopefully win a stanley cup in toronto, barring injury.

Some if this is a stretch, but its a possibiltiy. I mean, I'm sure nobody thought Keith would be an olympian, when he was 20.

 

[GordieHoweHatTrick]

One is not like the other. This depends on team needs. Both equally as valuable though

 

[Samsquanch]

Yeah, thats why Chara was drafted in the third, Weber in the 2nd, Campbell in the 6th, Souray in the 3rd, Edler in the 3rd... etc.

Huh?

Not quiet sure what the hell your trying say. Some players are drafted for offense, others for defense, and some for both. Where they get drafted depends on how likely the scouts believe they will reach that potential.

 

[Lehner]

People that say Karlsson has no defensive awareness is completely wrong, hes very sound positionally...but he needs to get stronger which is going to happen..thats his only flaw right now!