Value of: Erik Karlsson at the draft.

[Zegs2sendhelp]

Leafs immediately hang up.

Knies' value to the Leafs is much higher than his market trade value.

Man i was just told prospects are just prospect by leaf fans asking for zellweger/mintyukov!

why do all these rules only apply to leafs prospects or needs.

 

[Slimmy]

Sure in terms of offense but when it comes to actual defending I could name 100 Dmen right now that is better than him

Go ahead.

 

[ZDH]

Erik Karlsson (0% or 10% retained)

for

Ben Chiarot
very good D prospect (not Edvinsson)
2024 DET 1ST (top 10 protected)

Is that crazy?

Yes, we're not moving high firsts and very good d prospects for a top pairing defensive liability.

 

[Slimmy]

No one on this board seems to want to hear that. They equate his massive number of points to being an elite tier Dman and the stars simply don’t correlate. He’s definitely a top -offensive- Dman but that’s really all he is.

Top 3 player isn't good enough? Historic 100pt season where EK is involved in nearly 50% of all of SJs goals. Creating scoring chances from nothing with little to no talent on the roster to help. There's just no pleasing some people. Are you absolutely sure you know which player we are discussing? This is Erik Karlsson, not Klingberg.

 

[lanceuppercut75]

Man i was just told prospects are just prospect by leaf fans asking for zellweger/mintyukov!

why do all these rules only apply to leafs prospects or needs.

If you're talking to somebody reasonable and you say "my team values this prospect at a higher level than the value other teams would pay for him", then they'll accept it. Unreasonable fans are a different story.

 

[Dingo]

I hope we get to see him on a good team, healthy, one time. Just one damned year.

Anyone who watched that playoff run with Ottawa, or the 2014 Olympics knows that he WAS an historically elite all around dman. We also saw historically elite skills this year, but all else is ?? Imo, no matter how sure the haters or even his fans are.

Was his offence truly boosted, and by how much, by being on a team that stopped caring about winning?

Was his defence actually terrible, or can most of that be blamed on the team?

Is he too old and broken to play 100% like that again, but on a good team?

I hope we see next year. I’d love to see him have one more great year, but actually be able to go into the playoffs healthy and with a legitimate team around him.

 

[BlueSeal]

Contracts are just off ice concerns. What ultimately matters is the makeup of the team. There are ways to save cap elsewhere on quality depth, and that allows a team to withstand a bad contract.

As for the type of D Karlsson is, that's just what it is, a type. What matters is that he is an elite #1. Sure his defense isn't great but his offense is better than most elite D so what's the difference? Imo none other than how you build the team around the type of player

He is a game breaker with unreal hockey sense, in regular season or playoffs. Ottawa made great use of him by giving him a great defensive partner in Methot, and used other pairings in a shutdown role. They were a legit cup contender with him as their centerpiece

As for Karlsson in San Jose, would any other 1D do better? No elite player can carry a mediocre team. On a bad team we see negative qualities amplified.

Not in this situation.

In this situation you're taking on 11+ for 4 years and giving up picks, prospects and roster players to make it work. You bring him in, your window closes faster and it does change the makeup of the team and makes it harder to rebuild sooner. An example here is the Sharks can't do a proper rebuild until they offload his contract, why they don't want to retain or retain -very- little.

I'd argue by taking EK that you would make their rebuild much easier with cap and picks/prospects while making your window harder to keep open with no pool to draw from and far less cap room. If you take him at full or nearly full contract, you have to be in win-now mode. Because there's just no other way. The clock really starts ticking the minute the trade is made.

 

[BlueSeal]

I hope we get to see him on a good team, healthy, one time. Just one damned year.

Anyone who watched that playoff run with Ottawa, or the 2014 Olympics knows that he WAS an historically elite all around dman. We also saw historically elite skills this year, but all else is ?? Imo, no matter how sure the haters or even his fans are.

Was his offence truly boosted, and by how much, by being on a team that stopped caring about winning?

Was his defence actually terrible, or can most of that be blamed on the team?

Is he too old and broken to play 100% like that again, but on a good team?

I hope we see next year. I’d love to see him have one more great year, but actually be able to go into the playoffs healthy and with a legitimate team around him.

I've been really critical of him but I'll say this: He single-handedly is the best player the Sens ever had. I say this because he played severely broken and carried it like a warrior and did everything he could to put the team on his back. All respect and love to Alfie and others for saying that, but that's just my opinion. EK's pure will is otherworldly.

He got injured again back when we won the Cup.

My concern isn't his skill set as an offensive Dman, he will lead and he will get you points, but his ability to stay healthy in the playoffs when it becomes constantly physical and grinds out is a concern in my mind. The Cats have been going through multiple OTs in physical grinding games. Can he hold up? He's playing with a chunk of his ankle missing as it is and I absolutely do NOT question his will. He could break every bone in his body and still force it to play. His will is just that insane. What I question in situations like that, is his body. He's 32 so he's starting to get old enough where injures are a bigger and longer healing concern.

The only thing more concerning, is his contract. The Sharks really screwed themselves on that one.

 

[Mattb124]

When it comes to Karlsson and playing defense, a story by Dave Tippett about defensemen is rather revealing.
"Further into the article Tippett's hockey thoughts start coming out. He talks about an unnamed defenseman from his days in Juniors. This paragraph really sticks out when you look at it closely, and in the context of how the current Stars roster is constructed:

"We had a player that was supposed to be a great, shut-down defenseman. He was supposedly the be-all, end-all of defensemen. But when you did a 10-game analysis of him, you found out he was defending all the time because he can’t move the puck.

"Then we had another guy, who supposedly couldn’t defend a lick. Well, he was defending only 20 percent of the time because he’s making good plays out of our end. He may not be the strongest defender, but he’s only doing it 20 percent of the time. So the equation works out better the other way. I ended up trading the other defenseman."

Tippett is describing the impact of offensive zone possession time on the results that occur when a given player is on the ice. Player A can be a good defender, but if he is constantly defending instead of carrying the attack away from his net he is endangering the results of the team as a whole. Another implication of his statements is the value of defensemen with the ability to move the puck effectively."

Dave Tippett And Thinking About Defense Differently

Dave Tippett was fired by new General Manager Joe Nieuwendyk after missing the playoffs the year after the Stars lost to Detroit in the Western Conference Finals during the circus-like front office…

www.defendingbigd.com

Somehow people only view playing defense as hits and blocked shots. If that was true, Dan Girardi would still be in the league. Karlsson plays defense by moving the puck out of the d-zone and creating offense. He not a physical player, which is why he is paired with those types of defensemen, like Marc Methot.

People with a narrative to defend conveniently overlook that EK was 3rd in the league for take-aways by a defenseman. That speaks to scenario #2 above perfectly. There may be no better defensemen in the league at successful zone exits. He is no world-beater on D and his effort at times can be called into question, but he is better defensively than many on this site are willing to admit. Those same people also seem to overlook he played with 11 different D partners this year, most of whom were either replacement or AHL-level in ability.

 

[BlueSeal]

People with a narrative to defend conveniently overlook that EK was 3rd in the league for take-aways by a defenseman. That speaks to scenario #2 above perfectly. There may be no better defensemen in the league at successful zone exits. He is no world-beater on D and his effort at times can be called into question, but he is better defensively than many on this site are willing to admit. Those same people also seem to overlook he played with 11 different D partners this year, most of whom were either replacement or AHL-level in ability.

On point.

Here's the thing: What if the team looking to pick him up has shallow defense and are picking him up because they feel he will boost it up on a pure defense level? That's a huge mistake. Teams that could use him need to have a solid D corps OR desperately need scoring, have defense responsible forwards and a solid netminder, or it may blow up in their face.

I feel when people hear his name, they think elite 1D on an all-around defense level and that's not what he is.

 

[Mattb124]

On point.

Here's the thing: What if the team looking to pick him up has shallow defense and are picking him up because they feel he will boost it up on a pure defense level? That's a huge mistake. Teams that could use him need to have a solid D corps OR desperately need scoring, have defense responsible forwards and a solid netminder, or it may blow up in their face.

I feel when people hear his name, they think elite 1D on an all-around defense level and that's not what he is.

No NHL team would do that, so it is not even a reasonable concern to discuss. EK has been in the league for over a decade and every NHL professional who would be in on those sorts of discussions understands his strengths and weaknesses (even if the same can't be said for posters on this board).

 

[Poppy Whoa Sonnet]

Maybe there's something with St. Louis around Parayko/Faulk and their late firsts if SJ is willing to retain. Parayko in particular is starting to make the Blues nervous I'm guessing given there are 7 years left and may be unmovable though.

 

[BlueSeal]

Maybe there's something with St. Louis around Parayko/Faulk and their late firsts if SJ is willing to retain. Parayko in particular is starting to make the Blues nervous I'm guessing given there are 7 years left and may be unmovable though.

Blues front office wants the roster to get younger with term and cap control.

 

[McSuper]

*polishes his replica Blues Cup Ring* You don’t say.

It’s not some myth. He’s a good player with elite -offensive- upside but if he’s -that- dominant as some claim that he’s as elite a Dman as he is a scoring Dman, where’s his Cup?

Hell, the refs ALLOWED a hand-thrown goal and the Sharks still couldn’t beat us with him.

You can’t dominate if you still lose. That’s not what the word means. Vegas literally scored like mad with him on the ice in their first year.

Dumbest argument there is. It a lazy reply as when was the last time 1 elite player won a cup on their own? Even Gretzky couldn't pull that off

 

[Hockeysawks]

Top 3 player isn't good enough? Historic 100pt season where EK is involved in nearly 50% of all of SJs goals. Creating scoring chances from nothing with little to no talent on the roster to help. There's just no pleasing some people. Are you absolutely sure you know which player we are discussing? This is Erik Karlsson, not Klingberg.

35% more even strength goals againstthan the next closest player. 1-2% is the seperation with all the other players on the list. That is beyond brutal.
EK hogging the puck for points so his team can get rid of him is the reality of the situation.
They should move him to the wing and stop pretending he is playing D

 

[ottawah]

I'm passing if I am Ottawa (if not most teams).

While last year was entirely epic, it still does not erase the memory of the previous 4 years where he was rather pedestrian at best. At 33 years of age with 4 more years left at 11.5M I'm not risking a lot that last year was an aberration, even given his overall history.

If SJ retained a significant portion or was willing to take a really low offer from a team with a tonne of cap space, I can see it happening, but I just do not see why SJ would go down that road. Teams that could really use Karlsson are almost all right up against the cap and adding 11.5M is tough without throwing a lot of overpriced crap back the other way.

Now I do think if he plays next year like this year then a trade deadline deal is very possible, but at the moment, pass.

 

[Pinkfloyd]

35% more even strength goals againstthan the next closest player. 1-2% is the seperation with all the other players on the list. That is beyond brutal.
EK hogging the puck for points so his team can get rid of him is the reality of the situation.
They should move him to the wing and stop pretending he is playing D

This tired uninformed schtick. The amount of times Karlsson is down deep in the offensive zone is a shit ton less than you think.

 

[TheBeard]

This tired uninformed schtick. The amount of times Karlsson is down deep in the offensive zone is a shit ton less than you think.

It’s literally someone’s burner account. I wouldn’t bother.

 

[Hockeysawks]

This tired uninformed schtick. The amount of times Karlsson is down deep in the offensive zone is a shit ton less than you think.

It's shocking the legendary ammount that Mcdavid won the scoring race by is a smaller % then EK lost the even strength goals against by. The puck in the net behind him is a poop ton more than anyone thinks
It isn't a schtick it's how it is, nobody gets scored on more or anywhere near as bad.

It's a hockey stat posted on a hockey site it should not be found offensive

 

[Pinkfloyd]

It's shocking the legendary ammount that Mcdavid won the scoring race by is a smaller % then EK lost the even strength goals against by. The puck in the net behind him is a poop ton more than anyone thinks
It isn't a schtick it's how it is, nobody gets scored on more or anywhere near as bad.

It's a hockey stat posted on a hockey site it should not be found offensive

It's only shocking if you're just now finding out that the Sharks are a bad team. Karlsson had the worst goaltending behind him, waiver wire fodder defensive partners most of the time, and a set of forwards that was almost always outmatched by whatever the opposition put out there. However, pointing to even strength goals against while conveniently leaving out his being even at five on five seems to indicate a bias.

This is a schtick on your part. You're not willing or capable of having an honest conversation about Karlsson because we both know you didn't watch much of the Sharks this season to have an informed opinion.

 

[Painful Quandary]

It's shocking the legendary ammount that Mcdavid won the scoring race by is a smaller % then EK lost the even strength goals against by. The puck in the net behind him is a poop ton more than anyone thinks
It isn't a schtick it's how it is, nobody gets scored on more or anywhere near as bad.

It's a hockey stat posted on a hockey site it should not be found offensive

McDavid had the best season any player has had since Mario Lemieux, and that is the bar you are setting for Karlsson. Are you serious? No one is arguing that he is Bobby Orr and no one expects him to win a scoring title.

And then you somehow attribute the Shark's lack of goaltending and defensive depth to be Karlsson's fault. I guess the only way some people judge defenseman playing defense is hitz and crosschecking guys in front of the net.

No one is "offended," you are just making a bad argument by misusing statistics. Somehow Karlsson is "hogging" the puck by racking up assists, as in passing it to other players or getting it to the net to create scoring chances. Who else on the Shark's backend can even come close to Karlsson when it comes to transitioning the puck out of the d-zone and create offensive chances? Even if you include centers, it is not much better.

 

[Hockeysawks]

McDavid had the best season any player has had since Mario Lemieux, and that is the bar you are setting for Karlsson. Are you serious? No one is arguing that he is Bobby Orr and no one expects him to win a scoring title.

And then you somehow attribute the Shark's lack of goaltending and defensive depth to be Karlsson's fault. I guess the only way some people judge defenseman playing defense is hitz and crosschecking guys in front of the net.

No one is "offended," you are just making a bad argument by misusing statistics. Somehow Karlsson is "hogging" the puck by racking up assists, as in passing it to other players or getting it to the net to create scoring chances. Who else on the Shark's backend can even come close to Karlsson when it comes to transitioning the puck out of the d-zone and create offensive chances? Even if you include centers, it is not much better.

Thats not what I said. The gap between the second worst even strength goals against and EK is a larger gap than the gap than Mcdavid won the scoring tittle by.
Thats over the top crazy bad.

He always gets scored on at a unreasonable rate, ignoring that is odd
And it's always the team but never him even tho it's fairly consistent and spanned over many goalies and years.

 

[Mattb124]

He always gets scored on at a unreasonable rate, ignoring that is odd
And it's always the team but never him even tho it's fairly consistent and spanned over many goalies and years.

But that hasn't always happened over his career, so stating that is odd. What is also odd is arguing EK is individually accountable for a team stat (GF/GA) while downplaying/ignoring his contribution to individual stats which are much more directly tied to his play.

 

[Hockeysawks]

But that hasn't always happened over his career, so stating that is odd. What is also odd is arguing EK is individually accountable for a team stat (GF/GA) while downplaying/ignoring his contribution to individual stats which are much more directly tied to his play.

Since 2009 Ek is number 1 with 983 goals against in 920 games
Burns is second with 906 in 1007 games.
He leads the pack by miles it's obviously a trend

 

[TheBeard]

Oh god. Here we go again. It’s like they pop up like mushrooms overnight.