Blue Jays Discussion: End of the Hand

[MS]

If we dump Grichuk, tender Berrios, Stripling, Teo, and Cimber in Arb, and spend about as much as we did this year we should have about 60 million to spend this offseason.

That's theoretically enough to re-sign both Ray and Semien and still add around the edges but Bo and Vlad are due sizeable arb raises the following year. If you had to only pick one to keep between the two who would it be?

Ray seems like the most logical choice as we need pitching and have a lot of middle infield depth. Then again, Semien plays every day and leads our team in WAR, plus he's never injured, and we could always trade infield prospects for pitching (albeit no one as good as Ray).

I think it probably has to be Ray, and we either promote from within or go out into the market looking for another Semien situation, where a guy is not qualified and coming off a down year looking to bounce back. It's tough though cause every time I see Semien lately he's getting us crucial hits in important situations.

I'd keep Ray.

Semien has been amazing but I'm less convinced he'll keep being amazing and think there's pretty significant potential for a Rendon-type situation. I've said this a few times, but he's already one of the oldest high-producing players in MLB and is declining K:BB ratios are a bit of a red flag. If he'll demand a 4-5 year contract that will probably not end up looking great.

I'd also add that I think there is very little chance Semien re-signs in Toronto even if the team makes a competitive offer. He's from San Francisco, his family is from there, he's closely tied to charities there, and he didn't even move his family east for this season as they've stayed in the Bay Area. The Giants (especially), Dodgers, and Angels all have glaring holes in the middle of their infields and deep pockets and I'd be very surprised if he doesn't end up with one of those teams.

 

[Suntouchable13]

If we dump Grichuk, tender Berrios, Stripling, Teo, and Cimber in Arb, and spend about as much as we did this year we should have about 60 million to spend this offseason.

That's theoretically enough to re-sign both Ray and Semien and still add around the edges but Bo and Vlad are due sizeable arb raises the following year. If you had to only pick one to keep between the two who would it be?

Ray seems like the most logical choice as we need pitching and have a lot of middle infield depth. Then again, Semien plays every day and leads our team in WAR, plus he's never injured, and we could always trade infield prospects for pitching (albeit no one as good as Ray).

I think it probably has to be Ray, and we either promote from within or go out into the market looking for another Semien situation, where a guy is not qualified and coming off a down year looking to bounce back. It's tough though cause every time I see Semien lately he's getting us crucial hits in important situations.

Ok, let’s say they keep both is there enough resources to address the 3rd base hole? Biggio is not a 3rd baseman, and Espinal is probably too weak of a hitter to be hitting every day.

 

[Kurtz]

Ok, let’s say they keep both is there enough resources to address the 3rd base hole? Biggio is not a 3rd baseman, and Espinal is probably too weak of a hitter to be hitting every day.

There are always options. Maybe a Biggio/Pearson+ (Groshans?) package to Cleveland to rent Ramirez for 2 seasons.

 

[stickty111]

There are always options. Maybe a Biggio/Pearson+ (Groshans?) package to Cleveland to rent Ramirez for 2 seasons.

I'm pretty sure we will go after Ramirez this off season pretty aggressively just on the rumors from the deadline.

 

[zeke]

I always wondered why they haven't given Gurriel a shot at 3B.

He didn't have the glove for the middle infield, but it might be good enough for 3B....and he definitely has the arm for 3B. Heck they've played him at 1B this year and that requires a similar glove as 3B.

And he's a poor LF anyways.

 

[TGB]

Jays players credit the comeback victory against the A's for fueling their recent hotstreak:

 

[TGB]

Double posting because the format of my replies looks too funky sharing space with the video:

I always wondered why they haven't given Gurriel a shot at 3B.

He didn't have the glove for the middle infield, but it might be good enough for 3B....and he definitely has the arm for 3B. Heck they've played him at 1B this year and that requires a similar glove as 3B.

And he's a poor LF anyways.

He was nominated for a Golden Glove...

And he did play 3B. He was just as awful at 3rd for the same reasons he was awful up the middle: whenever he needs to mix in fancy footwork to make accurate throws, he sucks. But when he has the option to plant his foot, he throws very accurately. I've always thought he'd be better in left, and so far it has been his best position by far. He's inconsistent at times out there,but he more than makes up for it with his amazing throws.

There are always options. Maybe a Biggio/Pearson+ (Groshans?) package to Cleveland to rent Ramirez for 2 seasons.

Let's not trade a left handed power bat who fills in perfectly as a utility infielder on the eve of electronic strikes zone.

Ok, let’s say they keep both is there enough resources to address the 3rd base hole? Biggio is not a 3rd baseman, and Espinal is probably too weak of a hitter to be hitting every day.

Espinal seems to be maintaining 300 and he's a good fielder. That's more than good enough to be an every day shortstop in this league. Don't let the Jays' current embarrassment of offensive riches fool you. It's not normal to have this many offensive juggernauts on one team, and it's certainly not normal to be able to afford all of them. Starting next season, you're going to start seeing the boys get 10 million raises. You will need a less expensive player like Espinal around to play a solid position on the cheap. You can't have all stars at every position.

 

[Kurtz]

Double posting because the format of my replies looks too funky sharing space with the video:



He was nominated for a Golden Glove...

And he did play 3B. He was just as awful at 3rd for the same reasons he was awful up the middle: whenever he needs to mix in fancy footwork to make accurate throws, he sucks. But when he has the option to plant his foot, he throws very accurately. I've always thought he'd be better in left, and so far it has been his best position by far. He's inconsistent at times out there,but he more than makes up for it with his amazing throws.



Let's not trade a left handed power bat who fills in perfectly as a utility infielder on the eve of electronic strikes zone.



Espinal seems to be maintaining 300 and he's a good fielder. That's more than good enough to be an every day shortstop in this league. Don't let the Jays' current embarrassment of offensive riches fool you. It's not normal to have this many offensive juggernauts on one team, and it's certainly not normal to be able to afford all of them. Starting next season, you're going to start seeing the boys get 10 million raises. You will need a less expensive player like Espinal around to play a solid position on the cheap. You can't have all stars at every position.

Biggio is not really a power bat and I don't know how you can say that he's a perfect utility infielder when he can't play 3B or SS. If Semien is brought back, Biggio pretty much has to be traded.

 

[theaub]

Double posting because the format of my replies looks too funky sharing space with the video:



He was nominated for a Golden Glove...

And he did play 3B. He was just as awful at 3rd for the same reasons he was awful up the middle: whenever he needs to mix in fancy footwork to make accurate throws, he sucks. But when he has the option to plant his foot, he throws very accurately. I've always thought he'd be better in left, and so far it has been his best position by far. He's inconsistent at times out there,but he more than makes up for it with his amazing throws.



Let's not trade a left handed power bat who fills in perfectly as a utility infielder on the eve of electronic strikes zone.



Espinal seems to be maintaining 300 and he's a good fielder. That's more than good enough to be an every day shortstop in this league. Don't let the Jays' current embarrassment of offensive riches fool you. It's not normal to have this many offensive juggernauts on one team, and it's certainly not normal to be able to afford all of them. Starting next season, you're going to start seeing the boys get 10 million raises. You will need a less expensive player like Espinal around to play a solid position on the cheap. You can't have all stars at every position.

I agree with all of this except for the Biggio part...Espinal is the utility infielder to keep if you can move Biggio for a legit everyday 3B.

 

[Suntouchable13]

Double posting because the format of my replies looks too funky sharing space with the video:



He was nominated for a Golden Glove...

And he did play 3B. He was just as awful at 3rd for the same reasons he was awful up the middle: whenever he needs to mix in fancy footwork to make accurate throws, he sucks. But when he has the option to plant his foot, he throws very accurately. I've always thought he'd be better in left, and so far it has been his best position by far. He's inconsistent at times out there,but he more than makes up for it with his amazing throws.



Let's not trade a left handed power bat who fills in perfectly as a utility infielder on the eve of electronic strikes zone.



Espinal seems to be maintaining 300 and he's a good fielder. That's more than good enough to be an every day shortstop in this league. Don't let the Jays' current embarrassment of offensive riches fool you. It's not normal to have this many offensive juggernauts on one team, and it's certainly not normal to be able to afford all of them. Starting next season, you're going to start seeing the boys get 10 million raises. You will need a less expensive player like Espinal around to play a solid position on the cheap. You can't have all stars at every position.

I meant Espinal is too weak in terms of power to be playing every day at a corner position. He has no pop. But I guess Vladdy, Semien, and Bo kinda make up for it. I see what you’re saying.

 

[The Nemesis]

I meant Espinal is too weak in terms of power to be playing every day at a corner position. He has no pop. But I guess Vladdy, Semien, and Bo kinda make up for it. I see what you’re saying.

It doesn't matter that Espinal is not as much of a power hitter as other 3Bs. This team has more than enough pop in its lineup to carry one guy who doesn't mash HRs, especially since he's still a decent hitter.

The idea that you want particular positions to have power is a bit of a fallacy. You want your whole team to have a certain threshold of power and it usually turns out that those positions where it is most commonly required/prized are the ones that it's easiest to get from. But if you've got enough guys in the lineup who can thump then it doesn't really matter where the HRs come from in particular. The Jays are lucky enough to have guys at positions like 2B, SS, CF that can hit HRs better than most at their positions. So they do enough to make up for the fact that Espinal at 3rd might not give you the usual HR output that position provides.

 

[phillipmike]

 

[Canada4Gold]

If we dump Grichuk, tender Berrios, Stripling, Teo, and Cimber in Arb, and spend about as much as we did this year we should have about 60 million to spend this offseason.

That's theoretically enough to re-sign both Ray and Semien and still add around the edges but Bo and Vlad are due sizeable arb raises the following year. If you had to only pick one to keep between the two who would it be?

Ray seems like the most logical choice as we need pitching and have a lot of middle infield depth. Then again, Semien plays every day and leads our team in WAR, plus he's never injured, and we could always trade infield prospects for pitching (albeit no one as good as Ray).

I think it probably has to be Ray, and we either promote from within or go out into the market looking for another Semien situation, where a guy is not qualified and coming off a down year looking to bounce back. It's tough though cause every time I see Semien lately he's getting us crucial hits in important situations.

As a super 2 Vladdy is arb eligible next season. That being said the first year shouldn't be crazy. Donaldson put up 7.3 and 5.7 fWAR seasons prior and IIRC his first arb award was only 4.5 million

 

[Cloned]

Any weather updates for tonight?

 

[MS]

And he did play 3B. He was just as awful at 3rd for the same reasons he was awful up the middle: whenever he needs to mix in fancy footwork to make accurate throws, he sucks. But when he has the option to plant his foot, he throws very accurately. I've always thought he'd be better in left, and so far it has been his best position by far. He's inconsistent at times out there,but he more than makes up for it with his amazing throws.

Gurriel has never played an inning at 3B in MLB or in the minors. He played 4 innings total there as a 21 y/o in Cuba.

 

[BlueForever75]

Jays need to do everything in their power to retain Cimber, Richards, Ray, Matz and Semien. Keep the band together and do nothing else. Keep your own and there is no need to look outside of what you have right now.

You ask why? Bullpen will be perfectly fine with a healthy Pearson, Merrywether and Stripling in there along with what they already have in Romano, Mayza, Borucki and others.

This team needs to be kept as is. No additions needed. Its a championship team if kept together.

 

[Cloned]

Jays need to do everything in their power to retain Cimber, Richards, Ray, Matz and Semien. Keep the band together and do nothing else. Keep your own and there is no need to look outside of what you have right now.

You ask why? Bullpen will be perfectly fine with a healthy Pearson, Merrywether and Stripling in there along with what they already have in Romano, Mayza, Borucki and others.

This team needs to be kept as is. No additions needed. Its a championship team if kept together.

Additions are definitely needed. The bullpen is still shaky and they need another infielder.

 

[BlueForever75]

Additions are definitely needed. The bullpen is still shaky and they need another infielder.

Rotation is one of the better in baseball. Lineup even without an average 3B is still one of the best. I am ok platooning Biggio, Smith and Espinal in the spot. Play whos hot. All three give us flexibility around the diamond and OF. Great bench pieces to have if they continue to develop.

There is absolutely no need to spend on a 3B. Not when you have capable youngsters currently with team and another on the way up in Groshans. Not every position needs to be an allstar. We just need players that can contribute.

As for the bullpen. I agree I wouldnt mind another lights out arm. Something like Yates was supposed to be. But I wouldnt spend big. It would be just another lightning arm for the bullpen. Someone with zip. Bringing back someone like Phelps, or Hudson would be my target. Nothing huge.

Do you know whats better than a lineup full of all-stars??? A clubhouse that plays together and likes one another. The Jays have that right now. You dont mess with that.

 

[Cloned]

Rotation is one of the better in baseball. Lineup even without an average 3B is still one of the best. I am ok platooning Biggio, Smith and Espinal in the spot. Play whos hot. All three give us flexibility around the diamond and OF. Great bench pieces to have if they continue to develop.

There is absolutely no need to spend on a 3B. Not when you have capable youngsters currently with team and another on the way up in Groshans. Not every position needs to be an allstar. We just need players that can contribute.

As for the bullpen. I agree I wouldnt mind another lights out arm. Something like Yates was supposed to be. But I wouldnt spend big. It would be just another lightning arm for the bullpen. Someone with zip. Bringing back someone like Phelps, or Hudson would be my target. Nothing huge.

Do you know whats better than a lineup full of all-stars??? A clubhouse that plays together and likes one another. The Jays have that right now. You dont mess with that.

I'm not saying to tear everything down. But they definitely need additions. More velocity out of the bullpen is one need.

 

[BlueForever75]

I'm not saying to tear everything down. But they definitely need additions. More velocity out of the bullpen is one need.

That is all. But if Pearson and Merrywether can stay healthy. There are your power arms they desperately need along with Romano. Only because of their shaky health concerns do I consider adding one power arm more. But other than that, that is all this team needs.

Can you imagine if we had a full season of Springer, Berrios and Cimber\Richards where this team would be today? Add in a healthy Pearson and Merrywether!!!!!

This team is stacked. Everything in their power to bring the band back.

 

[The Nemesis]

Pearson is not being left in the bullpen.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Kind of confused why Kevin Smith isn't hitting leadoff. I thought when you were on a hot streak without a consistent leadoff hitter you put your worst hitter there instead so as to not mess with anyone else's spot

 

[Canada4Gold]

As currently constructed(I expect trades to change this) and with arb estimates for Vladdy(6), Teo(6.5), Jansen(1), Berrios(8), Stripling(4), Mayza(1.5), Richards(1), Cimber(1) the roster below costs about 100 million with 3 holes. If you sign a high end starter(lets say 25 million), a high end infielder(25 million), and a 5 ish million pen arm to be added. That would bring the total cost to 155 million. Who those names are is up for debate. Ray and Semien would be great, but I don't think you need to zero in on only them because that's what we currently have.

Semien's position leaves a lot of question marks for me. Ideally I'd like a 3B or a SS with Bo being ok to play 3B. If Semien wants to still play 2nd then that leaves Biggio without a position which isn't the end of the world, but after the season he's had that'd be a major sell low if we moved him. I have no issues with Espinal starting at 3B given hopefully a long term solution with Groshans coming in the pipeline anyway. But I'd rather not just plug Espinal into the hole below and say you're done positionally. That's more of a we keep Semien for 2nd to fill that hole, Espinal plays 3rd and Biggio either is traded or moves around between 2B and LF to shift the DH elsewhere if you've made some kind of decision at catcher.

Who exactly starts is in question. I'd like to see Pearson get another shot. Stripling has been more then competent as a 5th starter since mid May when he realized he was tipping. I feel like he's probably Pearson insurance. Does Hatch end up as Buffalo depth yet again?

The following offseason the only thing coming off the books is Berrios who you want to resign, and with some potentially large Arb raises that's probably the year you'll need to see the payroll jump. 30 million with Ryu and Grichuk comes off after that so it doesn't need to be a continual spike to the 200+ range even if you spend 50 million in long term money this offseason

Springer CF
Bo SS
Vladdy 1B
Teo RF
______
Kirk DH
Gurriel RF
Biggio 2B
Jansen C

Grichuk OF
Espinal IF
McGuire C
Smith 3B/OF

Ryu
Berrios
Manoah
______
Stripling/Pearson

Romano
Mayza
Merryweather
Richards
Cimber
Borucki
______
Stripling/Pearson

 

[theaub]

If I was MLB I would simply not endanger other teams so the Red Sox can make the playoffs.

 

[TGB]

I wonder why people are praising Walker so much? For every Ray and Stripling, pitchers with lots of stuff and proven track records in need of some adjustments, there are several Pearsons, Kays, Boruckis, Thorntons, Hatches, Murphys, and scores of relievers that have been unable to take the next step, or have even taken a few steps back, under his watch. I figured a good pitching coach would be a guy who can make the best prospects thrive, and the not best prospects develop into decent enough players.

This team is stacked. Everything in their power to bring the band back.

There's just one problem: outside of Ray, we have nothing to suggest any of those guys WANT to come back. In a few years, Berrios, Matz, Ryu, and Stripling might all be gone (same for the relievers; who says Cimber wants to come back?). Suddenly we're down to Ray and Manoah, and I'm not absolutely certain about Ray. Gotta keep adding arms.

Gurriel has never played an inning at 3B in MLB or in the minors. He played 4 innings total there as a 21 y/o in Cuba.

Spring training, dude.

Biggio is not really a power bat and I don't know how you can say that he's a perfect utility infielder when he can't play 3B or SS. If Semien is brought back, Biggio pretty much has to be traded.

Semien isn't coming back...unless Rogers has no problem rolling out a $180 million budget.

And I don't know how a guy who can hit 20 isn't a power bat. He can play most infield positions. He doesn't have to play them well. He just has to be good enough to inject as a left handed bat. He's much better in that role as a backup. You guys need to stop expecting all star quality performances from every position ESPECIALLY from the back up players.

I agree with all of this except for the Biggio part...Espinal is the utility infielder to keep if you can move Biggio for a legit everyday 3B.

Espinal is good enough to be a starting SS at most major league teams which is why he'll ask for a trade if the Jays make him the utility infielder. The only way they keep him is if he starts at SS and they spend the money at 3B. This is perfectly reasonable because you need to save money somewhere. Besides, prove Espinal will NEVER hit for power. Power usually comes later. I don't see any reason why he can't hit 15 or so.

Biggio is not going to net a good 3B. All teams will be asking for Kirk, no doubt. Maybe Smith. And you guys are giving up on Biggio way too quickly. He was injured and had his sophomore slump. If he fails again next year, then we can give up on him. And, again, imagine what electronic strike zones will do for him. SO MANY of his strikeouts have been on bad calls.