Blue Jays Discussion: End of the Hand

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Did I say there weren't? I don't recall ever suggesting Kirk was miscouted.



Is that really Kirk making Ray look good, or Ray making Kirk look good? Because Ray looked pretty darn good pitching to other catchers besides Kirk. And I really have to wonder what games you've been watching if you think Kirk's defense has been top-notch.

Your comment on scouting reports appeared to be referring to both Kirk and Moreno.

Ray's ERA is under 2.00 with Kirk catching him and presumably Ray is requesting him as his catcher. The numbers are far better than with the other guys. That he's in that position as a rookie speaks volumes for him.

Kirk's gamecalling has been excellent, especially when you consider his age. He's made 1 error all season. His arm isn't amazing but he's looked more confident there recently.

His defense was presumed to be an issue heading into the season based on old scouting reports and his lack of experience, but that hasn't played out at all.
 
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Not that this stuff is necessarily meaningful, particularly in such small samples, but Ray has a 1.89 ERA when pitching to Kirk compared to 2.78 with Adams, 2.93 with McGuire, and 3.73 with Jansen. His BB and K numbers are actually worse, but he's suppressed HR when throwing to Kirk.

Again... it may very well mean nothing, but the results from a pure run-prevention standpoint have been far better with Kirk.

i'm not big on catcher ERA, usually because of discrepancies in which pitchers you're catching....but in this case it looks like Kirk has the best cERA with pretty much every starter on the staff.

i still think he has plenty of work to do defensively, but at the same he's done a pretty dang good job for a 21-22yr old fielding the most demanding position in baseball, and shows natural receiveing and gamecalling ability, imo. also , he had a 40% cs% in the minors so he'll probably improve on his poor mlb mark soon enough.
 
every scouting report you've ever read on Kirk can be summed up by saying "....but he's fat".

Fat and slow. Guess what? They were right; however, unlike certain people around here, I don't believe that warrants any real mention since the only thing that actually matters is that he's slow. Tubby Kirk and Tellez hit just fine last summer, which is one reason why I consider all those fat Vladdy criticisms to be lame excuses, and Ortiz was one of the best hitting DHs ever.

i'm not big on catcher ERA, usually because of discrepancies in which pitchers you're catching....but in this case it looks like Kirk has the best cERA with pretty much every starter on the staff.

Well, yeah, almost all of his catching happened after the re-emergence of Stripling and Matz in July and the arrival of Berrios, and he caught when the Jays bullpen had Merryweather and Chatwood was actually pitching well. That's kind of circumstantial. And he's not exactly picking people off the bases left and right.
 
Fat and slow. Guess what? They were right; however, unlike certain people around here, I don't believe that warrants any real mention since the only thing that actually matters is that he's slow. Tubby Kirk and Tellez hit just fine last summer, which is one reason why I consider all those fat Vladdy criticisms to be lame excuses, and Ortiz was one of the best hitting DHs ever.

yes, and i'm telling you that Kirk's scouting reports were wrong, and the product of a longtime bias in scouting against bad body types.

what he is doing right now as a 21-22 year old catcher is not only incredible, but is no surprise based on his minor league track record.
 
yes, and i'm telling you that Kirk's scouting reports were wrong, and the product of a longtime bias in scouting against bad body types.

And I'm telling you I have no idea what you're talking about. All the scouting reports I saw pegged him pretty well. Terrific hitter. Good enough defense but clearly needs to improve. Actually had a pretty good throw out rate (which I haven't seen). Slow as hell. Scouting reports are wrong all the time, but suggesting that they totally missed the mark on Kirk is a gross exaggeration (and on Jansen earlier; nobody ever said he was a horrible defender. I read he was mostly average but had improved a lot).
 
And I'm telling you I have no idea what you're talking about. All the scouting reports I saw pegged him pretty well. Terrific hitter. Good enough defense but clearly needs to improve. Slow as hell. Scouting reports are wrong all the time, but suggesting that they totally missed the mark on Kirk is a gross exaggeration (and on Jansen earlier; nobody ever said he was a horrible defender. I read he was mostly average but had improved a lot).

If the scouting reports didn't tell you he was an elite prospect, then they were wrong, and biased against body type.
 
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If the scouting reports didn't tell you he was an elite prospect, then they were wrong, and biased against body type.

They did. An elite HITTING prospect.

At this point it sounds like you're not so much disagreeing with me, but pushing some kind of agenda.
 
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what he is doing right now as a 21-22 year old catcher is not only incredible, but is no surprise based on his minor league track record.

Fangraphs had some good comments on Kirk from last season and heading into this season where projection systems and biases really don't know what do with Kirk since no one has had his body shape and been successful. He's basically a big question mark and will be his entire career. Not so much that he wouldn't produce, Fangraphs was confident in that, but have no idea how he'll evolve as a player and how he'll change as he ages.
 
Fangraphs had some good comments on Kirk from last season and heading into this season where projection systems and biases really don't know what do with Kirk since no one has had his body shape and been successful.

Come on, guys. He's not THAT big. He had a beer belly last summer but it's mostly gone. He just looks big because he's a stocky guy.

And is that really true? There are lots of short guys around the league that play well. He's not exactly slim but I don't see any reason why he can't up his game a bit. His running technique in particular is awful. He's got short catcher legs, but running better should make a difference. Heck, I'm shorter than him and I've always had bad knees, but one year with a teacher who was a former track runner and I upped my foot speed to outrunning most of the class.
 
Come on, guys. He's not THAT big. He had a beer belly last summer but it's mostly gone. He just looks big because he's a stocky guy.

And is that really true? There are lots of short guys around the league that play well. He's not exactly slim but I don't see any reason why he can't up his game a bit. His running technique in particular is awful. He's got short catcher legs, but running better should make a difference. Heck, I'm shorter than him and I've always had bad knees, but one year with a teacher who was a former track runner and I upped my foot speed to outrunning most of the class.

Via Fangraphs prospect list going into this season.

"Kirk has several elite statistical indicators, both in his surface-level on-field performance and in the background TrackMan data from his 2019 minor league campaign (in addition to what I have over on The Board, a source tells me his expected stats based on quality of contact are very similar to his 2019 Hi-A slash line of .288/.395/.446), and eyeball scouts acknowledge he’s a terrific offensive player.

But there is skepticism surrounding his long-term athletic viability because Kirk is a very husky guy (listed at 5-foot-8, 265) without a body comp precedent in baseball, or arguably across all of pro sports. Because Christian Vazquez is listed at 5-foot-9, 205 (which is either an embarassing oversight or an intentional lie), the closest measurable comp to Kirk is José Molina at 5-foot-10, 250, but that’s from when Molina was nearly 40-years-old, whereas Kirk is only 22. It’s very difficult to anticipate what might happen to his frame as he enters his mid-20s, when many other players are thickening up as they reach maturity. All of this creates doubt surrounding whether or not Kirk can catch right now and/or long-term. But because he made his major league debut in 2020, we’ve gotten to see him do it a handful of times, and for a lot of different pitchers, at the big-league level. Kirk’s receiving and framing are okay. He catches on one knee even with runners on base, which makes him especially good at framing balls toward the bottom of the zone. He sets his target then lets his glove hand go slack and works back to the ball as it heads home, which magnifies issues with visual presentation to umpires when his pitcher misses his spot. In general, Kirk just has a slow-moving glove and doesn’t catch pitches at the top of the zone as cleanly as the softy sinkers at the bottom, and I wonder if he’ll have more obvious issues catching power arms, though he did fine in two outings as Robbie Ray’s backstop. Kirk’s legs set up as wide as they can go when he’s in his modified crouch so he can try to block balls without actually having to move his whole body laterally, and it actually works okay. He’s not a great thrower despite an average arm because he’s so slow out of his crouch, and sometimes he’ll throw from one knee to circumvent this.

My visual evaluation is that he’s a passable defender, not a good one, and I think the Jays deep stable of catchers will dictate that he DHs sometimes and catches at others. The more 1B/DH Kirk has to play during his years of team control, the less valuable he’ll be. He has an all-fields, doubles-oriented approach that prioritizes contact and walks, which I think is great for a catcher but won’t be at first. He’s an everyday big league catcher right now, but he may have an abnormally early decline phase. (Alternate site, MLB)"

Here's his blurb for the 2020 prospect list:

"A Jeremy Brown situation is brewing here, as Kirk has several elite statistical markers (a tiny 5% swinging strike rate, more career walks than strikeouts, power production in the FSL) and strong TrackMan data (a 91 mph average exit velo, a 48% hard hit rate), but also generates skepticism among eyeball scouts looking at athletes and bodies. Kirk is built like Chris Farley and, like Farley, has moments of surprising grace and athletic brilliance despite his size. But there’s no precedent for someone this big having a robust major league career. The closest comp I could find from a height/weight standpoint is José Molina, who was listed at 6-feet, 250 pounds late in his career. Molina was nearly 40 then, while Kirk — 5-foot-8, 265 pounds — is only 21, and it’s hard to predict what will happen to his build and agility as he ages into his 20s, because pro athletes like this (John Daly, maybe?) don’t really exist.

His age makes the statistical track record even more impressive, though, especially when you consider that Kirk missed a year due to a hand injury and has been young for every level at which he’s raked. He has an all-fields, doubles-oriented approach that prioritizes contact and walks. He’s a 20-grade waddler from base to base, and even visual evaluations of his swing (which features conservative footwork) are mixed despite his numbers. He can turn on balls in and hit balls hard the other way, but this isn’t like Andrew Vaughn, who scouts will acknowledge has defensive limitations and whose mobility they’ll knock, but about whose athleticism in the batter’s box they all rave. This is a weird one, perhaps a prospect who will be aided by coming changes to the way balls and strikes are called in the event that he begins a physical regression very early, as most scouts believe he will."
 
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They did. An elite HITTING prospect.

At this point it sounds like you're not so much disagreeing with me, but pushing some kind of agenda.

An elite hitting prospect that can play the most important defensive position in baseball = an elite prospect.
 
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An elite hitting prospect that can play the most important defensive position in baseball = an elite prospect.

I think the best part about Kirk being a catcher is that it will become one of the least important defensive positions in baseball as soon as the league gets their head out of their ass and brings the electronic strike zone into the mix. Also as of right now even if he's not the best defensive option there, he's more than a good enough bat to play DH every day, especially if Jano keeps raking like he has since April finally ended.
 
Via Fangraphs prospect list going into this season.

"Kirk has several elite statistical indicators, both in his surface-level on-field performance and in the background TrackMan data from his 2019 minor league campaign (in addition to what I have over on The Board, a source tells me his expected stats based on quality of contact are very similar to his 2019 Hi-A slash line of .288/.395/.446), and eyeball scouts acknowledge he’s a terrific offensive player.

But there is skepticism surrounding his long-term athletic viability because Kirk is a very husky guy (listed at 5-foot-8, 265) without a body comp precedent in baseball, or arguably across all of pro sports. Because Christian Vazquez is listed at 5-foot-9, 205 (which is either an embarassing oversight or an intentional lie), the closest measurable comp to Kirk is José Molina at 5-foot-10, 250, but that’s from when Molina was nearly 40-years-old, whereas Kirk is only 22. It’s very difficult to anticipate what might happen to his frame as he enters his mid-20s, when many other players are thickening up as they reach maturity. All of this creates doubt surrounding whether or not Kirk can catch right now and/or long-term. But because he made his major league debut in 2020, we’ve gotten to see him do it a handful of times, and for a lot of different pitchers, at the big-league level. Kirk’s receiving and framing are okay. He catches on one knee even with runners on base, which makes him especially good at framing balls toward the bottom of the zone. He sets his target then lets his glove hand go slack and works back to the ball as it heads home, which magnifies issues with visual presentation to umpires when his pitcher misses his spot. In general, Kirk just has a slow-moving glove and doesn’t catch pitches at the top of the zone as cleanly as the softy sinkers at the bottom, and I wonder if he’ll have more obvious issues catching power arms, though he did fine in two outings as Robbie Ray’s backstop. Kirk’s legs set up as wide as they can go when he’s in his modified crouch so he can try to block balls without actually having to move his whole body laterally, and it actually works okay. He’s not a great thrower despite an average arm because he’s so slow out of his crouch, and sometimes he’ll throw from one knee to circumvent this.

My visual evaluation is that he’s a passable defender, not a good one, and I think the Jays deep stable of catchers will dictate that he DHs sometimes and catches at others. The more 1B/DH Kirk has to play during his years of team control, the less valuable he’ll be. He has an all-fields, doubles-oriented approach that prioritizes contact and walks, which I think is great for a catcher but won’t be at first. He’s an everyday big league catcher right now, but he may have an abnormally early decline phase. (Alternate site, MLB)"

Here's his blurb for the 2020 prospect list:

"A Jeremy Brown situation is brewing here, as Kirk has several elite statistical markers (a tiny 5% swinging strike rate, more career walks than strikeouts, power production in the FSL) and strong TrackMan data (a 91 mph average exit velo, a 48% hard hit rate), but also generates skepticism among eyeball scouts looking at athletes and bodies. Kirk is built like Chris Farley and, like Farley, has moments of surprising grace and athletic brilliance despite his size. But there’s no precedent for someone this big having a robust major league career. The closest comp I could find from a height/weight standpoint is José Molina, who was listed at 6-feet, 250 pounds late in his career. Molina was nearly 40 then, while Kirk — 5-foot-8, 265 pounds — is only 21, and it’s hard to predict what will happen to his build and agility as he ages into his 20s, because pro athletes like this (John Daly, maybe?) don’t really exist.

His age makes the statistical track record even more impressive, though, especially when you consider that Kirk missed a year due to a hand injury and has been young for every level at which he’s raked. He has an all-fields, doubles-oriented approach that prioritizes contact and walks. He’s a 20-grade waddler from base to base, and even visual evaluations of his swing (which features conservative footwork) are mixed despite his numbers. He can turn on balls in and hit balls hard the other way, but this isn’t like Andrew Vaughn, who scouts will acknowledge has defensive limitations and whose mobility they’ll knock, but about whose athleticism in the batter’s box they all rave. This is a weird one, perhaps a prospect who will be aided by coming changes to the way balls and strikes are called in the event that he begins a physical regression very early, as most scouts believe he will."

Good read - I especially enjoyed the Jeremy Brown callback and the Chris Farley references.

This does remind me of the Stroman as a starter skepticism (there have only been like ~2 guys of his height who succeeded as SP)
 
Come on, guys. He's not THAT big. He had a beer belly last summer but it's mostly gone. He just looks big because he's a stocky guy.

And is that really true? There are lots of short guys around the league that play well. He's not exactly slim but I don't see any reason why he can't up his game a bit. His running technique in particular is awful. He's got short catcher legs, but running better should make a difference. Heck, I'm shorter than him and I've always had bad knees, but one year with a teacher who was a former track runner and I upped my foot speed to outrunning most of the class.

Its not just that he's short and stocky, its that he's short, stocky and playing the position that in theory should destroy short and stocky guys very quickly.

I am a big Kirk guy but I would be very open to moving him in the right deal this offseason.
 
I just can’t with George springer anymore

I simply can’t come around to this guy after this season.
pulled hammy
Pulled hamstring
Bone bruise on knee
High ankle sprain
Lower back stiffness
 
Its not just that he's short and stocky, its that he's short, stocky and playing the position that in theory should destroy short and stocky guys very quickly.

I am a big Kirk guy but I would be very open to moving him in the right deal this offseason.

Jays history, age 21-22, min 100pa

1. Guerrero 153wrc+ (.314babip)
2. Kirk 137 (.300)
3. Bichette 134 (.361)
4. Olerud 118 (.283)
 
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If Pearson can perform like he did last game and Merryweather comes back like he was, even Montoyo can't screw things up.

You don't want to get ahead of ourselves but:

Closer: Romano
Setup/Stopper: Merryweather
Setup/Stopper: Pearson

Middle Relief Situational Lefty: Mayza
Middle Relief Groundball: Cimber
Middle Relief: Richards

Long Relief: Stripling

High Leverage 7th inning arm: Soria

Using their 7th best pitcher in the 7th inning with a 3 run lead against the Yankees

tumblr_pppjpnq3741tx72cpo1_500.gifv
 
Remember we pinch hit for Kirk with Valera with the game on the line?
 
2 and 2.5gms back of both WCs.

Yuge game for the big rook Manoah tommorrow in the big Apple.
 
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