Elias Pettersson vs. Auston Matthews

[Dache]

I just think it's hypocritical to claim Pettersson is better then Matthews because he's doing better in the playoffs, even though he's matched McDavid's career playoff point totals. Besides that Matthews has still been better then Pettersson in the regular season when it comes to goals and points, so if that logic applies to McDavid then it should also apply to Matthews.

Please tell me you are not giving someone crap for being hypocritical? You been shown countless time’s of yourself being hypocritical on here.

 

[John Johnson]

Let's see. Binnington .800% (3 games), Allen .920% (3 games), Stalock .897% (4 games), Lehner .940% (4 games), Fleury .903% (1 game). Cumulative save % of all the goalies Canucks have faced this playoffs. 0.898%.

vs.

Korpisalo .956% (4 games), Mrzlikins .946% (1 game), Rask .915% (14 games), Holtby .925% (6 games). Cumulative save % of all goalies Leafs have faced in the playoffs. 0.927%.

Hockey is a team sport. As great as EP is, they've played some suspect goalies. Leafs have gotten shut down by quality defensive teams with capable goaltending.

Their numbers are like that because the Canucks were actually able to score, whereas the leafs weren't. Its not a coincidence lmao. Why am I even talking about post season hockey with leaf fans you guys must be bored out of your minds. I bet you would also be happy with the same unerachieving team next year.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

to suggest they aren't a par defensively is ridiculous.
their defesive point shares are extremely close.
Not to mention that FauxCentre on Twitter who is part of the analytics team for the Kingston Frontenacs (who i would assume has resources available that most people wouldn't) had them on par defensively as well.View attachment 365397 View attachment 365398

I don't know why you keep posting this guy's charts as if they mean anything. They don't. It has already been explained to you that this is entirely the subjective opinion of one person on Twitter who has gone out of his way on multiple occasions to clarify this subjectivity. Citing his subjective opinions is not citing valid evidence to support your stance but rather making an appeal to authority argument.

Additionally, we don't even know what type of analytics he does for Kingston. Based on what I've heard from similar people in similar positions, it's very likely that they just have him tracking micro stats. But regardless of what he does, it's extremely unlikely that the additional resources possessed by the Kingston Frontenancs - an OHL team - even have any relevance to whether or not Pettersson or Matthews is the superior defensive player. Moreover, even if they did, it would be very unlikely that they would provide this kid with those resources.

Citing his opinion is meaningless. It would be no different than citing somebody on one of the prior pages that said "Pettersson is far better defensively AINEC." In order for those charts to provide value, they'd need to either provide objective evidence (they don't) or he'd need to go into much better detail on the subjective side of things. His defensive analysis on Matthews literally boils down to "Great in zone coverage in all areas" and "Good with stick checks" while his analysis on Pettersson literally boils down to "Great in-zone defense," "Good with stick," and "Keeps puck away from net." You could put together a Python script that does a better job of writing vague statements about their defensive capabilities than this guy did.

Defensive point shares are a joke. Alex Goligoski is a terrible defensive player and he finished 9th in defensive point shares this season. Pettersson and Matthews' 1-year and 3-year RAPM charts charts both depict Pettersson as the significantly superior defensive player:

Spoiler

Spoiler

 

[Breakers]

Because Pettersson has never killed penalties whereas Marner was an all situation guy. I swear man, some people don't know wtf they're reading and want to jump into conversations without a clue.

So Marner > Pettersson because he kills penalties.

and just a heads up
Marner's "PK RelxGA" is trash
So dont go bragging about him on the PK

 

[Erik Alfredsson]

Wait are people seriously trying to suggest that Matthews is just as good defensively as Pettersson? LOL Pettersson is a defensive stud, he's far better and that's clear if you watch both of them.

 

[CascadiaPuck]

Welp, this is good for growing the Ignore list anyways.

I'm a Canucks fan voting Pettersson because it truly feels like he's still putting things together. When he grows into his frame and as this core matures, I am honestly not sure where the ceiling is. At a minimum, I see him becoming a 90pt game changer who draws massive attention from other teams' D assignments, opening the way for his teammates on other lines to start producing a lot too. The game pivots around him in a special way when he's on the ice. If the Canucks can work in some offensive depth that forces teams to stop zeroing in on him so much, he may contend for the Art Ross at some point.

None of that is meant as a slight to Matthews though. That guy is incredible. It'll be weird if he doesn't win at least one Rocket.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

Neutral fan voting Pettersson.

Not a slight against Matthews who is a great player in his own right, but Pettersson might be the smartest player in the game right now.

 

[CascadiaPuck]

ill take the 47g/80pt guy over the guy that hasnt hit 30g or had 70pts yet

See, this is disappointing. I was someone who stuck up for Matthews when people tried to undersell his talents based on his numbers the first few seasons. That was a garbage argument for running down the clear talent that he was. And now I see a few Leafs fans doing it with Pettersson. It's a disingenuous take, whether applied to Matthews or Pettersson.

 

[BradyTkachucky]

Matthews, and not close either.

 

[LeafsNation75]

I voted Pettersson, it is close though. It would be a complete oversight to ignore how Pettersson has played these playoffs. GWG last night, 18pts in his first post season thus far. Which is only one less than Matthews has in his entire career. Which IMO tips the vote towards EP.

Pettersson first 2 years compared to Matthews. I think there is a case to be made he is slightly ahead.

Regular season:
Pettersson 132 points in 139 games.
Matthews 132 points in 144 games

Post Season:
Pettersson
18 points in 15 games
Matthews
7 points in 13 games

I'm honestly asking why are you only using their first 2 years of regular season points, because if you factor in Matthews 4 years he's already at 285 points in 282 games played.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I'm honestly asking why are you only using their first 2 years of regular season points, because if you factor in Matthews 4 years he's already at 285 points in 282 games played.

Isn't it obvious? Petterssen has not played 4 years in the NHL yet. You look at their first 2 years in the NHL and base it on their projection. Didn't the OP ask who do you take going fwd?

 

[Star Ocean]

You must be out to lunch if you think he's done more with less. Nylander has been the best linemate Matthews has had outside the 30 or so games he got with Marner this year. Nylander's best career season with Matthews full time has been 61 points. He came up as a rookie together with Auston and he was on Auston's line while playing through his snake bitten hold out season last year.

Outside of Nylander and a little bit of Marner. Matthews has played the vast majority of his NHL games with guys like Kapanen, Hyman, Johnsson and Marleau. None of whom come anywhere near players like Brock Boeser or JT Miller who had 72 points in 69 games while playing majority of his minutes with EP.

EP also has had 22 points on the PP as a rookie and 24 points this year in 3 fewer games than Auston. AM in his first 3 NHL seasons accumulated have 21, 13, 20 PPP. Leafs do have better players on the team compared to what the Canucks have however, Auston has almost never had the luxury riding shotgun with the top players. He's practically carried every line he's ever been on.

I can easily argue that this season alone, EP wasn't even the best Canuck forward. I think JT Miller contributed arguably more to the team than EP did. Even these playoffs he's been a huge catalyst. *I know Markstrom is your MVP.

Auston has been the best Leafs forward and the guy who does nothing but score clutch goals and carrry the team for 3 out of the 4 years he's been on the team. His only down year was last year when he was a beast offensively but lacked game to game consistency and was atrocious on defense. Had a ton to do with injuries because he started off the year absolutely beastly and was a ghost of himself after coming back from his concussion/ shoulder issue or whatever it was. Not to mention he had to carry Nylander also who couldn't hit a soccer net with a tennis ball from 5 feet out.

Marner, tavares, Nylander are definitely more offensive then vancouvers core.

 

[Fatass]

I'm honestly asking why are you only using their first 2 years of regular season points, because if you factor in Matthews 4 years he's already at 285 points in 282 games played.

Petey has only played two seasons.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Isn't it obvious? Petterssen has not played 4 years in the NHL yet. You look at their first 2 years in the NHL and base it on their projection. Didn't the OP ask who do you take going fwd?

So then using their stats after 2 years in the NHL besides their point totals this is what their goal totals look like.

Matthews: 74 Goals.

Pettersson: 55 Goals.

So that's a huge advantage Matthews has and it needs to be taken into account besides their point totals at that time.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

So then using their stats after 2 years in the NHL besides their point totals this is what their goal totals look like.

Matthews: 74 Goals.

Pettersson: 55 Goals.

So that's a huge advantage Matthews has and it needs to be taken into account besides their point totals at that time.

I am using their first 2 seasons, points, post season performance, defence, assists and goals and weighting them accordingly. It would be rather stupid would it not be to just point out goals to decide which player to vote for going forward ?

 

[LeafsNation75]

I am using their first 2 seasons, points, post season performance, defence, assists and goals and weighting them accordingly. It would be rather stupid would it not be to just point out goals to decide which player to vote for going forward ?

I don't see where you mentioned their defense and all those other things how they were after 2 seasons played. In your reply you just totaled up their regular season points at that time.

I voted Pettersson, it is close though. It would be a complete oversight to ignore how Pettersson has played these playoffs. GWG last night, 18pts in his first post season thus far. Which is only one less than Matthews has in his entire career. Which IMO tips the vote towards EP.

Pettersson first 2 years compared to Matthews. I think there is a case to be made he is slightly ahead.

Regular season:
Pettersson 132 points in 139 games.
Matthews 132 points in 144 games.

 

[Regal]

I've seen both, and I think both are equally as good defensively. Numbers back em up too. Atleast the ones that I've presented. Idn what magical numbers everyone else is going off, but I'd love to see them.

None of the numbers, raw or relative in terms of corsi, high danger corsi, xGA, GA or regression analytics in RAPM suggest that Matthews is as good

 

[Ace of Hades]

Its funny you are actually using WAR and Rel Corsi as testament to suggest that Pettersson is as good as Matthews. Hilarious desperation.

So you resort to copying me what I said. Shows the creativity of leaf fans here.

 

[The Pale King]

I'm enjoying the more lax swear filter but 'AINEC' should be a bannable term and show as 'A****'. It literally makes the opposite point people think it does and gets an immediate unfollow from me.

Pettersson for me but it's close. Smaller player with that kind of motor and zero fear just fires up the whole team.

 

[Ace of Hades]

Feel free to share your statistics that meet the eye tests. I posted my stats off of a credible site and all those players meet the eye tests for their offensive and defensive point shares. So far, I've seen nothing of actual substance from Canucks fans other than some BS narrative that Pettersson is so much better at defense than Auston, while showing no actual number of the two or their peers. I want to see what the defensive numbers look like for the top guys in the league and where Matthews and Pettersson stack up. Go ahead. Do the work and post it.

The statistics of EP being ahead of Matthews defensively was already posted in the first few pages of the thread if you bothered to read them.

You do not entertain me anymore especially considering how bad your at his best Marner is better than EP take looked like. EP at his best is still above peak Marner, and the reason why EP does not PK is because Green relies on his old overpaid bottom 6 veterans to get the job done.

Show me one statistic where Pettersson blows Matthews out of the water. I showed my list, he showed very accurate statistics as well. If you could look at it with an open mind you would see that the gap defensively is almost non existence. While the gap offensively is significantly larger. While Pettersson is catching up, almost a ppg, he isn’t there yet.

There has been several posts detailing how Pettersson is quite ahead of Matthews. Do yourself a favour and actually read the statistics posted by users that relies on actual effective metrics of their defensive play instead of conveniently ignoring them. Those are not very accurate statistics, that defensive share shit he posted was inaccurate and flawed.

There is no gap offensively between the two when it comes down to it. Matthews is better at goal scoring, while Pettersson is better at playmaking, it as simple as that.

 

[The Winter Soldier]

I don't see where you mentioned their defense and all those other things how they were after 2 seasons played. In your reply you just totaled up their regular season points at that time.

Petterssen is already very good defensively in only his second season, did you want me to mention that he had the best defensive 5v5 GA60 metrics for Canucks fwds this season also?

For the record, I think it is close enough where one player does not have a major advantage over the other one defensively when you project their first 2 years in the NHL. The only major advantage is their post season play where Petterssen holds a decided advantage.

 

[Wildcarder]

Matthews = more talented, better goal scorer, likely to put up more points, more off-ice drama. NHL comparable stylistically = Stamkos?
Pettersson = smarter, better two-way game, elevates others around him better, mature for his age, better playoff track record so far. NHL comparable stylistically = Datsyuk?

I take Pettersson.

 

[BCNate]

I would lose my mind if Benning gave up EP for Matthews. Matthews is a better goal scorer no doubt, but there is so much to the game than that. I feel that EP is equal or better in almost all other facets of the games already, and impacts the game in more ways. Matthews is 6'3" 220, Pettersson is 6'2" 175. EP has much more room to grow physically, which is a huge reason why I would take him going forward without question.

 

[CascadiaPuck]

I'm enjoying the more lax swear filter but 'AINEC' should be a bannable term and show as 'A****'. It literally makes the opposite point people think it does and gets an immediate unfollow from me.

It's like there needs to be a translator on "AINEC"-type statements that says: "I have not watched the other player in this comparison but I have a hankering for some shitposting, so here we are."

 

[Sidney the Kidney]

So then using their stats after 2 years in the NHL besides their point totals this is what their goal totals look like.

Matthews: 74 Goals.

Pettersson: 55 Goals.

So that's a huge advantage Matthews has and it needs to be taken into account besides their point totals at that time.

Why does it? If both were considered elite goal scorers, then sure, comparing their goal totals makes sense. But why does goal totals have to be taken into account when one of those players is more of a playmaker?