rypper
21-12-05 it's finally over.
- Dec 22, 2006
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Ridiculous. Even with how he's played, if he was on the market 31 teams would be interested.
Player Discussion Elias Pettersson Talk | Also Chiropractors, the Medical Staff, and You
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Ridiculous. Even with how he's played, if he was on the market 31 teams would be interested.
sure i'm not tarring everyone with the same brush. i just think there are some posters who -- charitably -- are inconsistent in the standards to which they hold different players
I'm not so sure that he is acting exactly the same now. I think early on in his NHL career we saw some Datsyuk in him where he was able to play a pressure game all over the ice. He got away from that over the years. Last year at the beginning of the season we saw him playing a type of physical game that we didn't see from him before.
I think the sulky manchild stuff just comes from a certain poster here or two. I agree that it's not nice to demean others like so and have spoken out in the past about these things but not enough people care.
From my perspective, I think criticism of Petey is warranted. My instinct is to direct criticism somewhere while discussing solutions. I also try to be fair. We've all seen what Petey is capable of. If he's suffering from minor nagging injury then he needs to find a way to produce. Assuming that we're not dealing with a player who has lost a step and declined, I'm having trouble finding an excuse for Petey's poor play and production. Part of a player's value is in their ability to stay healthy and perform while playing hurt because virtually no player is going to go through the season 100% healthy. Boeser, for example, scored goals in the playoffs with a broken finger. I am 99% sure Petey has played hurt in the past and produced.
If he's injured to the point that is causing him to play poorly I think the team should shut him down given that he's not effective. Protect your arguably your 2nd most mportant asset here. If it's a matter of geting him going, there are traditional ways like playing him until he figures it out, reuniting the Lotto Line, or playing him with someone who might spark his play (which Tocchet did playing Petey with Garland).
PuckMunchkin
Very Nice, Very Evil!
This is a great observation.
Is life just a series of Rorschach tests and then we die?
Diamonddog01
Diamond in the rough
Jesus Christ this thread is an absolute trainwreck. And to think we all got along so well last season...
i wasn't saying he was playing the same just that his demeanour and body language hasn't really changed since the period he was putting up 100 points
This isn't the Everybody Is a Special Snowflake league.
First off, we're not judging this guys by the same metrics as 'normal' people. Nathan MacKinnon sounds like an absolutely odious human being but he is celebrated for those traits because they drive excellence for his team. Conversely, while being a chill 'nice guy with high emotional intelligence might be great if you're looking for a friend it probably isn't the personality type you want in an NHL player.
Let me give you two sentences :
1) My buddy Dave just took two days off work at Save-on Foods because his dog was sick and throwing up and he was worried and didn't want to leave him alone.
2) JT Miller will miss the next 2 Canuck playoff games in Dallas because his dog was sick and throwing up and he didn't want to leave him alone, so he won't be traveling with the team.
One of those sounds totally reasonable. The other sounds insane, even though they're exactly the same thing. This is because STANDARDS ARE DIFFERENT FOR ELITE ATHLETES GETTING PAID $50-100 MILLION CONTRACTS.
It isn't 'being superman'. It's being able to drown out distractions and show up and do your job. The vast majority of players can do it. Hell, most of us do it in our everyday lives. If you're one of the ones that can't, it's a problem. This is not rocket science.
What the hell are you talking about?
Elias Pettersson carried himself like an absolute ass toward this city and the fans here for an entire year, was given an $80 million contract ... and has then proceeded to deliver an absolutely piss-poor level of compete (coupled with miserable body language) for his last 45 games.
People care about this team. People want to see this team win. We're actually in a place were we *could* win, which is amazing. And it's absolutely infuriating to see the team's highest-paid player moping around and not competing. And people are going to be upset about that. And it's totally fair. And if you want to just be a happy clapper, that's totally fair too.
Nobody, ever, has treated Pettersson like he 'f***ed their girlfriend and killed their dog'. What an absurd thing to say. He's being treated the same way that people talk about a frustrating co-worker who doesn't pull his weight.
And again, I was super happy last season. I'm still mostly super happy now. But Pettersson's performance and it's role in killing our season last year was a Big Freaking Deal, and there is absolutely nothing wrong or weird about being upset about it.
It's also amusing to see that there is apparently some arbitrary point in your mind where Huberdeau's uninspired 50-60 point play becomes 'bad' and worthy of criticism.
I think we're still getting along pretty well overall, its just that we're in a position to be a serious cup contender and that brings a different level of stress in the fandom, especially when one of our few game breaking talents isn't breaking anything except our hearts right now.
Bobby9
Registered User
- Feb 10, 2019
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He is throwing his body in to his hits pretty hard so he certainly isn’t injured.
He looked more involved yesterday but still a long long way to say he’s earning his salary.
Went from D rating to C+ over the last 2 games.
He looked more involved yesterday but still a long long way to say he’s earning his salary.
Went from D rating to C+ over the last 2 games.
mriswith
Registered User
- Oct 12, 2011
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I don't even know what most posters who aren't borderline trolling like Bobby/MS mean by EP apologists.
Everyone acknowledges he's had a long slump and needs to get back to 90-100 point form, and we all agree on that fact while collectively ignoring that he scored 90 last year and 100 the year before that and we all refer to him as slumping.
We all also agree that we will not ever win a cup if EP plays like he did in the playoffs last year. That's not acceptable to any of us. I don't think anyone attributes 100% of his struggles to his injuries.
That's being an apologist?
Trolling on the other hand to me looks like:
The entire argument started because PM won't let the group of posters off the hook who convinced themselves that he wasn't injured in the playoffs and were very loud about their beliefs, were proven 100% wrong after the playoffs, and instead of going the reasonable route and saying "ok injuries had some amount of effect but we're screwed if he doesn't recover back to his full form" decided to double down with speculating about whether he actually was injured or not, and if he was injured then it was very, very minor and it didn't really effect his play.
Everyone acknowledges he's had a long slump and needs to get back to 90-100 point form, and we all agree on that fact while collectively ignoring that he scored 90 last year and 100 the year before that and we all refer to him as slumping.
We all also agree that we will not ever win a cup if EP plays like he did in the playoffs last year. That's not acceptable to any of us. I don't think anyone attributes 100% of his struggles to his injuries.
That's being an apologist?
Trolling on the other hand to me looks like:
- Talking about buying him out
- Calling his slump waiver wire material
- Talking about how he wants to be an influencer and cares more about his instagram than his game
- Claims that he wasn't actually injured
- Claims that he was injured but it had no real effect on his play
- Making up narratives about holding the franchise hostage based on generic hockey quotes that any player would say, and
- Anytime someone calls out one of the above points, whining about EP nuthuggers and not being able to criticize EP when 99% of the posts about EP are criticism and have been for months, and the "nuthugging" is a gentle reminder that, in addition to whatever problems he's having, last year his wingers sucked and he had some unknown level of injury. It's just ridiculous.
The entire argument started because PM won't let the group of posters off the hook who convinced themselves that he wasn't injured in the playoffs and were very loud about their beliefs, were proven 100% wrong after the playoffs, and instead of going the reasonable route and saying "ok injuries had some amount of effect but we're screwed if he doesn't recover back to his full form" decided to double down with speculating about whether he actually was injured or not, and if he was injured then it was very, very minor and it didn't really effect his play.
Oh I thought we were referring to angry JT breaking sticks on goalposts and yelling, which isn't ideal but also wasn't a big deal to me at the time. I agree that lack of effort during the play is always a problem for any player.
mriswith
Registered User
- Oct 12, 2011
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MS said:
No that's what you do whenever someone makes a point that you disagree with but don't have a real answer for.
You have stated repeatedly that you do not believe his "very, very minor" injury had any significant impact on his play. Those are your very words. That is the definition of being unwilling to accept that his injury effected his play which is what you were arguing for pages about with PM and hence meme worthy.
I used to go point by point arguing with you and then I realized that it was pointless because every single time I had you cornered you would do exactly what you're accusing me of here. And if it was a really, really good point, you'd spend the next couple months randomly bringing up your strawman in other threads.
You've literally framed him as a "40 point player" multiple times when he scored 90 last season and 100 the season before that. You've stated that EP is like if Bergeron randomly turned into Jimmy Vesey for a season while talking about his 2024 season. I know that you know he scored 90 last year and aren't literally claiming he had a 40 points season but if I didn't know he scored 90 then reading your posts about him I would literally believe he Huberdeau'd his season last year and half his career instead of finishing last season with 34 goals, a top 20 point finish and being >ppg for his career.
You have used having a hangnail multiple times as an exaggerated (there's that word again) comparison for his injury. You have stated repeatedly that you do not believe his "very, very minor" injury had any significant impact on his play.
None of that is a strawman. Those are all your exact words. You hold these absurd opinions as unquestionable facts and won't accept anything else.
It's the constant exaggerations like these that annoy me enough to actually argue. When you decide to be measured and reasonable I don't feel a need to argue even if I don't fully agree, people are allowed to have different opinions.
I have never seen you or anyone else I consider a borderline troll on this topic even respond to how garbage his wingers were during his slump last year and how no other superstar has "110 point top 5 in the game" expectations with 4th line wingers attached to both wings like he did. The most I've seen is people using some variation of "x player has one bad winger sometimes" or "healthy peak Crosby did it" neither of which are legitimate responses.
As best as I can tell, you are livid first and foremost in this thread that PM won't let you and others who were convinced he wasn't injured in the playoffs forget that he actually was in fact injured to some extent.
Secondarily to that you dislike him as a person because of the narrative you've built up in your head about him off of generic hockey quotes that every player would say.
Tertiary to that, and perhaps foremost for threads that aren't this one, you want to see him try harder and are upset that he underperformed during a legitimate cup run and on this point I almost agree except that for some players "try harder" puts them deeper into their own head and I suspect without proof that this is the case for EP.
hope he's not just trying to put himself in a position to get points so try to take the focus off of his slump in play. That attitude will make him even more desperate for points and a little less eager to do put more effort into things like backchecking, ect. The way he's been playing lately, I'd prefer the Canucks had 2 Garlands out there instead of a Garland and Petterson. I thought was looking a bit better in the last game though.
bandwagonesque
I eat Kraft Dinner and I vote
- Mar 5, 2014
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There don't seem to be any publicly available AI generators willing to create an image of Elias Pettersson nailed to a cross. Interestingly, it's because he's a publicly identifiable figure and not due to the violent nature of crucifixion.
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He’s talking about the half season slumps when he says “40 point player”. Pettersson has 25 points in his last 45 games including the playoffs, a 46 point pace. He also had 20 points in the first 40 games of 21-22. Injury or not, you just don’t see other star players capable of 100 points have these slumps without sitting. Regardless of the criticisms of him as a player/person, it’s hard to deny that it’s bizarre.
mriswith
Registered User
- Oct 12, 2011
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I know he's referring to the slumps not the full season and said that as well in that post, my point is that if you just listen to the rhetoric you'd think EP mailed in his last season and we had a Huberdeau or PLD on our hands, but he actually had a good statistical season two years in a row.
EP's slumps come bundled with some bizarre anomalies. He was injured in 2020-2021 but accused of faking it, and still accused of faking while sitting out. Is that something other star players capable of 100 points deal with in their first ever slump?
21-22 was a bizarre anomaly for the entire team, almost every player on the team entire team was a huge outlier of garbage until Benning was gone. Some flipped a switch immediately after he got fired whereas EP took about two months to heat back up.
Even last year, if we compare him to other 100 point players, he's an anomaly in what he has to deal with. McDavid gets Hyman and sometimes Draisatl and top d deployment. Mackinnon gets Rantanen, and deployed with Makar. Etc.
EP got Hog and Mik while Miller was getting the majority of the Hughes deployment. Ignorning the injury, expecting EP to put up 100 points with two 4th liners on his wings and middle pairing d support is an expectation you might have for prime Crosby but not EP.
This particular issue is the exact same perception problem that Hughes had to deal with. I said over and over again for years that Hughes would never have left the Makar/Hedman/Fox conversation if he had the kind of partner they did instead of the waiver bait he had to play with and that was proven true last year. Unlike with Hughes I don't think this is a full explanation of what happened with EP but it's still a big deal.
Am I saying this excuses EP's entire slump? No. Same with whatever effect his injury had. We will not win a cup if he's slumping like he did last playoffs and that's the bottom line. But these things do matter a lot both for looking at what happened and looking at what we expect to happen in the future and deciding what level of rhetoric to deploy here about the player.
Pettersson's Struggles:
-start to show a little bit against Philly
-theorizes that he is wired differently that Miller and Hughes; not as emotional as them
-thinks he is one of those guys that is aware of everything that is said about him and it's something he going to have to move past
-Hughes knows what matters and what doesn't
-Miller has got a lot better at "riding the line" emotionally
-Boeser has improved at remaining calm
-Friedman's constructive criticism of Pettersson is he needs to figure out how to ignore the noise
@mriswith , I am not sure that you are phrasing this all entirely accurately. I don't think you are intentionally trying to strawmen people here, but I don't think, by and large, posters were denying that Pettersson had any injury, the point was that many didn't think an injury explained or caused his poor play. Not trying to get into an overly semantical argument, but no one knows if any particular player is playing with any injury - that's obviously unknown information unless we are told otherwise - and frankly, probably most NHL players are playing with some form of minor injury, and usually we don't ever hear about it.
So the fact that at the end of the year it was revealed that Pettersson had an injury wasn't some damning event to posters who doubted whether Pettersson's struggles were caused by an injury, especially when you consider a ton of evidence suggests the injury was minor.
Personally, I think there are likely numerous factors at play, and I don't think the injury factor has been the most significant factor. I think linemates and mental/confidence are the two biggest factors.
On MS, I don't think you are being fair claiming he is a troll. I think MS is arguing in good faith, and while you may disagree with many of his points, he does provide rational for his/her arguments.
So the fact that at the end of the year it was revealed that Pettersson had an injury wasn't some damning event to posters who doubted whether Pettersson's struggles were caused by an injury, especially when you consider a ton of evidence suggests the injury was minor.
Personally, I think there are likely numerous factors at play, and I don't think the injury factor has been the most significant factor. I think linemates and mental/confidence are the two biggest factors.
On MS, I don't think you are being fair claiming he is a troll. I think MS is arguing in good faith, and while you may disagree with many of his points, he does provide rational for his/her arguments.
thekernel
Registered User
- Apr 11, 2011
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Elias Pettersson discourse is just one never-ending comparison to 10 goals in 10 games.
This city needs a Cup, badly. It won't cure our collective brain damage but people will at least chill a little bit
Between rambling personal attacks like this and the guy who said I'm acting like Pettersson 'f***ed my wife and killed my dog' (like, seriously, WTF) this is actually starting to get weird.
Pettersson had a minor injury. Nothing in what the club or the player has said about the injury indicates that it was anything other than minor. Nothing in the handling of the injury indicates it was anything other than minor. Moreover, he's had multiple similar stretches in his career where he was healthy and had the same issues/struggles - including right now where he's 0-2-2 in 8 games at ES between the regular season and preseason despite being totally healthy.
When you are an $11 million player, you have to be able to play through minor injuries and contribute. If you can't, it's a problem. If your body language goes to shit, it's a problem. Nobody is saying that 'Pettersson wasn't hurt' or 'no leeway whatsoever should be given due to the minor injury'. You just can't have a minor injury and be *this* bad, or look this bad and disinterested doing it. This is really simple stuff and the reactions people are having to criticisms about it are absolutely insane to me.
And more than that. when you had Pettersson holding the team to ransom for a year and laying the groundwork to pull a Tkachuk/Dubois right before this happens, people are going to be triggered by it. This guy has used up a lot of goodwill here over the last 4 years, and being frustrated by him and venting those frustrations is ... totally normal, and reasonable.
As for the notion that I'm a 'troll' or arguing in bad faith ... give me a break. I've made a pile of very long posts detailing my issues with him, backing it up with statistics, giving examples of players performing better with serious injuries ... and then you just ignore all of that, chop it from your quote, and go on a rant full of personal attacks because you don't like 'has a hangnail' as a turn of phrase to indicate a minor injury, or whatever.
PuckMunchkin
Very Nice, Very Evil!
Im guessing you were one of those posters.
I called it was either a hip or a knee injury.
And then the folks who said he was healthy either now down play the injury or ignore it happened completely.
I get it.
Admitting you were wrong can be really difficult for some people.
Playing for months with that injury is not a small thing.
I know you cling on some info you read about how it affects some office workers and refuse to acknowledge how different it is for a pro athlete to keep doing competetive contact sports through the injury.
I think he has had two injuries that cause significant chronic pain and that is something that has caused two of his slumps.
To think its a coincidence is driven by an agenda...
Most of the time.
