Value of: Edmonton & Boston - not realistic but curious

[VainGretzky]

DeBrusk isn't an offensive winger at all. He's actually more of a defensive one. Do some research before you post nonsense.

Ekholm is 10x the defensive player Debrusk is AINEC and he is also outproducing the winger as well

 

[Cup or Bust]

Ah so no need to look back at the 6 years worth of stats, let’s just take the first 20 games of this season & end the discussion there.

I’d suggest DeBrusk on McDavids wing would outscore Hyman.

It is possible but Hyman is actually doing it and he makes a big impact on every line he plays on. That is why he gets opportunities to play with guys like Matthews, Marner, McDavid,, Draisaitl. It's not out of charity, he forces coaches to give him those opportunities with his play and the chemistry he creates with other players on any line you play him on. In a few years the age factor kicks in but the Oilers can't really worry about 3 or 4 years down the road at this point.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

DeBrusk average goals per season: 25
Hyman average goals per season: 24

“Hyman >>>>>>>>> DeBrusk, DeBrusk is a big downgrade from Hyman” is a garbage take.

DeBrusk is 27 yrs old, Hyman 31. Hyman has had Austin Matthews & McDavid as his primary centers through his career. If anything they’re very close in value. In fact when Hyman was 27 (BM: before McDavid) he averaged far less goals than DeBrusk does.

Why would the Bruins make that swap if they can just sign their player whom is 4 years younger and scores at the same pace?

Why would Edmonton make the swap when they have a guy that's a perfect fit already, outperforming his contract, and wanted to be here? For a guy that we might only get 60 games out of? It's absolute nonsense.

Last year DeBrusk played primarily on a line with Bergeron and Marchand. You're really going to sit here and pretend like he didnt benefit from that?

it's also hilarious that you're trying to pretend that Debrusk doesn't benefit from powerplay time too. Hyman had move 5v5 assists than DeBrusk had 5v5 points last season. Despite the fact that DeBrusk played with two elite players.

 

[Oates2Neely]

Why would Edmonton make the swap when they have a guy that's a perfect fit already, outperforming his contract, and wanted to be here? For a guy that we might only get 60 games out of? It's absolute nonsense.

Last year DeBrusk played primarily on a line with Bergeron and Marchand. You're really going to sit here and pretend like he didnt benefit from that?

it's also hilarious that you're trying to pretend that Debrusk doesn't benefit from powerplay time too. Hyman had move 5v5 assists than DeBrusk had 5v5 points last season. Despite the fact that DeBrusk played with two elite players.

Where did I suggest Edmonton SHOULD make the swap? Don’t move the goalposts. I I merely pointed out that your comments that Hyman >>>>>>>> DeBrusk & he’s a huge downgrade from Hyman is a garbage take.

Bergeron was on the verge of retirement, didn’t put up nearly the points that McDavid did. Are you suggesting 37 year old Bergeron = 26 year old McDavid??

DeBrusk wasn’t on the top PP unit.

It is possible but Hyman is actually doing it and he makes a big impact on every line he plays on. That is why he gets opportunities to play with guys like Matthews, Marner, McDavid,, Draisaitl. It's not out of charity, he forces coaches to give him those opportunities with his play and the chemistry he creates with other players on any line you play him on. In a few years the age factor kicks in but the Oilers can't really worry about 3 or 4 years down the road at this point.

More opinions. You speak from emotion. Let’s agree to disagree.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Where did I suggest Edmonton SHOULD make the swap? Don’t move the goalposts. I I merely pointed out that your comments that Hyman >>>>>>>> DeBrusk & he’s a huge downgrade from Hyman is a garbage take.

Bergeron was on the verge of retirement, didn’t put up nearly the points that McDavid did. Are you suggesting 37 year old Bergeron = 26 year old McDavid??

DeBrusk wasn’t on the top PP unit.


More opinions. You speak from emotion. Let’s agree to disagree.

From an Edmonton POV, Hyman is absolutely >>>>> DeBrusk. Production wise, fit wise, contract wise, it's not even close. DeBrusk might be a guy we look at in the offseason if he wants to come home, but we're in absolutely NO position to trade a guy with term for a guy with none.

Hyman was a very good player prior to coming to Edmonton, and he's been a very good player here. Every single fanbase thinks that their players would see huge production bumps with McDavid and that's very rarely the case. He's difficult to mesh with, and there's absolutely no guarantee that Debrusk would.

Speaking from emotion is thinking a 50 point player compares to an 80 point player just because you think so.

 

[Hookslide]

Zacha isn't exactly playing with scrubs. Marchand and Pastrnak are top flight NHL stars.

Zacha's top offensive year was last season at 57 points. That is an average year for RNH, who is just coming off of 102 points.

RNH doesn't play every minute with Drai and Connor, though he does get top PP time. You may not know this, but when Nuge was hurt the Oiler power play suffered big time. It was shocking to see but made clear to Oiler fans eyes how important RNH is to the line up.

Anyway, Zacha is a good player but I think objectively RNH is better.

Ask again in two-three years and the answer could very well be different.

I am not so sure about RNH off one year , I will stick with Zacha for the long run.

 

[Cup or Bust]

More opinions. You speak from emotion. Let’s agree to disagree.

You are the one that sounds a bit emotional. I never said Debrusk is not a good player but Hyman earns his opportunities and gets results.

 

[wintersej]

You are the one that sounds a bit emotional. I never said Debrusk is not a good player but Hyman earns his opportunities and gets results.

They are similar levels of players is all Boston fans are saying.

Hyman is better down low and DeBrusk is better off the rush. Both PK. Both can play with top line players and further down in the lineup and produce. DeBrusk has a better track record of being able to play in a system that stresses defense and two way play and Hyman has a better track record of being able to fit in with elite offensive players.

DeBrusk is shooting 6% so far this year. That won't continue. Hyman scored 80 point last year and Boston fans are just pointing out that Hyman is an 80 point player like RNH is a 100 point player... he isn't really THAT good somewhere else, BUT I agree there is no reason for EDM to risk that a different player wouldn't have the same fit/chemistry.

Its a weird direction the thread went in!

 

[McJedi]

Ekholm is 10x the defensive player Debrusk is AINEC and he is also outproducing the winger as well

Again.. That isn't true. Ekholm is a 200 foot player like DeBrusk. Not really a specialist. His possession quality and point shares is pretty even between his offensive and defensive expected goals for vs against. He starts 51.4% of his shifts in the Ozone... so clearly not a defensive specialist or being deployed as one. His Fenwich and Corsi about the same as DeBrusk.

He is certainly no defensive stalwart. None of his metrics would suggest this. But he's a good overall player.

Oiler fans must read too much Sportsnet that has the analysis level of 3rd grade hockey. It's clear you are new to the sport and dont' really understand it. Ekholm isn't 10x better than DeBrusk in terms of his defensive impact as a D vs DeBrusk as a W. Both are good, not great, defenders for their respective positions. Both are good, not great, 200 foot players.

Ekholm is a bit sloppy with the puck. Too many giveways.

 

[wintersej]

Why would Edmonton make the swap when they have a guy that's a perfect fit already, outperforming his contract, and wanted to be here? For a guy that we might only get 60 games out of? It's absolute nonsense.

Last year DeBrusk played primarily on a line with Bergeron and Marchand. You're really going to sit here and pretend like he didnt benefit from that?

it's also hilarious that you're trying to pretend that Debrusk doesn't benefit from powerplay time too. Hyman had move 5v5 assists than DeBrusk had 5v5 points last season. Despite the fact that DeBrusk played with two elite players.

Yes DeBrusk benefitted from playing with Marchand and Bergeron. It's why his +/- stats were twice as good as Hyman's. It's why his Corsi was 58% compared to Hyman's 53%. Its why Hyman was on the ice for 75 5 on 5 goals allowed and DeBrusk was on the ice for 26 5 on 5 goals allowed.

 

[ElPrimeTime]

While Swayman fills a much needed void, it doesn't make sense creating two additional ones.

You can argue till your blue in the face about Hyman vs. DeBrusk, but what the Oilers do know is that they have a player that fits and plays well with the current core in the situations needed and is signed long term. DeBrusk isn't elite enough that you would feel completely confident that he steps right in and does great and even if he does, you have to find the funds to sign him long term.

The drop from Ekholm to Grz is an absolute no starter.

Oilers def say no to that return. Swayman for futures (picks and prospects) is more likely from the Oilers side.

 

[Oates2Neely]

From an Edmonton POV, Hyman is absolutely >>>>> DeBrusk. Production wise, fit wise, contract wise, it's not even close. DeBrusk might be a guy we look at in the offseason if he wants to come home, but we're in absolutely NO position to trade a guy with term for a guy with none.

Hyman was a very good player prior to coming to Edmonton, and he's been a very good player here. Every single fanbase thinks that their players would see huge production bumps with McDavid and that's very rarely the case. He's difficult to mesh with, and there's absolutely no guarantee that Debrusk would.

Speaking from emotion is thinking a 50 point player compares to an 80 point player just because you think so.

How is he better? DeBrusk at age 27 has averaged more goals per season than Hyman. DeBrusk is on Bostons PK which is ranked near the top of the NHL. He scored 27 goals last season with a 37 year old Bergeron as his primary center.

In regards to the McDavid factor, whom did Nugent Hopkins skate with last season as his center when he recorded his career high 104 points? Was Hyman on McDavids RW last season his career high 36 goals?

Referring to Hyman as an 80 point player is wild considering by age 31 his career high was ONE 54 point season.

DeBrusk is the better goal scorer & is 4 years younger. Facts don’t care about your feelings.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Yes DeBrusk benefitted from playing with Marchand and Bergeron. It's why his +/- stats were twice as good as Hyman's. It's why his Corsi was 58% compared to Hyman's 53%. Its why Hyman was on the ice for 75 5 on 5 goals allowed and DeBrusk was on the ice for 26 5 on 5 goals allowed.

Yes, absolutely, that's why, nothing whatsoever to do with elite goaltending

 

[wintersej]

Yes, absolutely, that's why, nothing whatsoever to do with elite goaltending

You certainly follow a predictable pattern in your retorts for years and years.

While Swayman fills a much needed void, it doesn't make sense creating two additional ones.

You can argue till your blue in the face about Hyman vs. DeBrusk, but what the Oilers do know is that they have a player that fits and plays well with the current core in the situations needed and is signed long term. DeBrusk isn't elite enough that you would feel completely confident that he steps right in and does great and even if he does, you have to find the funds to sign him long term.

The drop from Ekholm to Grz is an absolute no starter.

Oilers def say no to that return. Swayman for futures (picks and prospects) is more likely from the Oilers side.

Yeah that is all fair from EDM POV, and from Boston POV there is no interest in Swayman for picks and prospects. Don't think there is a match here until the offseason unless its some three way deal and those are just tire fires to talk about on a forum.

 

[ChaoticOrange]

How is he better? DeBrusk at age 27 has averaged more goals per season than Hyman. DeBrusk is on Bostons PK which is ranked near the top of the NHL. He scored 27 goals last season with a 37 year old Bergeron as his primary center.

In regards to the McDavid factor, whom did Nugent Hopkins skate with last season as his center when he recorded his career high 104 points? Was Hyman on McDavids RW last season his career high 36 goals?

Referring to Hyman as an 80 point player is wild considering by age 31 his career high was ONE 54 point season.

DeBrusk is the better goal scorer & is 4 years younger. Facts don’t care about your feelings.

We know what we have in Hyman. We know he fits here, we know what his role is, and we know he wants to be here. We don't know what we'd get in DeBrusk away from a stingy defensive system and two elite goalies. He's also - and I will have to stress this for the umpteenth time because you're not getting it - Debrusk is unsigned after this year. That alone means Edmonton wouldn't trade Hyman for him with a gun to their heads.

You want facts? Hyman has a 36 goal, 83 point season with us. Both of those figures blow DeBrusk's production out of the water. Facts don't care about your hypotheticals either.

You certainly follow a predictable pattern in your retorts for years and years.



Yeah that is all fair from EDM POV, and from Boston POV there is no interest in Swayman for picks and prospects. Don't think there is a match here until the offseason unless its some three way deal and those are just tire fires to talk about on a forum.

Boston allowed 80 fewer goals than the Oilers and their goaltenders won the Jennings and the Vezina. Hyman plays in front of Jack Campbell and Stuart Skinner. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Boston's goaltending is a huge reason they have had (regular season) success.

 

[Oates2Neely]

Yes, absolutely, that's why, nothing whatsoever to do with elite goaltending

Thread derailment:

You: “DeBrusk is a HUGE downgrade from Hyman, Hyman >>>>>>>>>> DeBrusk”

Me: “actually they produce goals at a similar pace, here are the numbers..”

You: “But why would Edmonton trade Hyman for DeBrusk when Hyman is already signed long term”

Thread derailed..

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Thread derailment:

You: “DeBrusk is a HUGE downgrade from Hyman, Hyman >>>>>>>>>> DeBrusk”

Me: “actually they produce goals at a similar pace, here are the numbers..”

You: “But why would Edmonton trade Hyman for DeBrusk when Hyman is already signed long term”

Thread derailed..

It was your buddy that wanted to bring 5 on 5 goals into this. The natural progression of that is to look at how much DeBrusk benefits from playing in front of elite netminding.

Contracts absolutely matter in player value discussions. I can understand as an American hockey fan on the East coast that might be difficult to understand, but Edmonton has the most travel time in the NHL by a lot. Players don't like it, so it's a harder sell for them to stay.

 

[Oates2Neely]

We know what we have in Hyman. We know he fits here, we know what his role is, and we know he wants to be here. We don't know what we'd get in DeBrusk away from a stingy defensive system and two elite goalies. He's also - and I will have to stress this for the umpteenth time because you're not getting it - Debrusk is unsigned after this year. That alone means Edmonton wouldn't trade Hyman for him with a gun to their heads.

You want facts? Hyman has a 36 goal, 83 point season with us. Both of those figures blow DeBrusk's production out of the water. Facts don't care about your hypotheticals either.


Boston allowed 80 fewer goals than the Oilers and their goaltenders won the Jennings and the Vezina. Hyman plays in front of Jack Campbell and Stuart Skinner. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Boston's goaltending is a huge reason they have had (regular season) success.

You should’ve just stated the bolded from the beginning, fair take. You’re moving the goalposts now because your original trash take got called out.

“DeBrusk is a huge downgrade from Hyman”. =Trash take.

“We like Hyman and know what we have in him here, he’s a good fit for us” = Solid take

 

[ChaoticOrange]

You should’ve just stated the bolded from the beginning, fair take. You’re moving the goalposts now because your original trash take got called out.

“DeBrusk is a huge downgrade from Hyman”. =Trash take.

“We like Hyman and know what we have in him here, he’s a good fit for us” = Solid take

I've said half a dozen variations of this, I'm glad one finally managed to penetrate into the ol' grey matter.

Take it to the mains if you want to, I sincerely doubt you'd win an argument about which player is better.

 

[Oates2Neely]

It was your buddy that wanted to bring 5 on 5 goals into this. The natural progression of that is to look at how much DeBrusk benefits from playing in front of elite netminding.

Contracts absolutely matter in player value discussions. I can understand as an American hockey fan on the East coast that might be difficult to understand, but Edmonton has the most travel time in the NHL by a lot. Players don't like it, so it's a harder sell for them to stay.

Contracts have nothing to do with “DeBrusk is a huge downgrade from Hyman”.

Playing on the RW with the current greatest hockey player in the world would benefit everyone.

 

[dredeye]

I'd rather have Ekholm and Hyman over Gryz and DeBrusk myself.

I would prefer a goalie that can stop pucks but that's just me

 

[ChaoticOrange]

Contracts have nothing to do with “DeBrusk is a huge downgrade from Hyman”.

Playing on the RW with the current greatest hockey player in the world would benefit everyone.

Valuewise, I stand by it. What's the last pending UFA that returned an equivalent or better player that was more productive?

Production wise, 80 point player >>> 50 point player.

Player with 12 goals >>> player with 3 goals.

This isn't rocket science. Nobody outside of Boston thinks that the two are close.

 

[dredeye]

102 points isn't top caliber?

It's usually not the best practice to judge a player based of the crazy outlier season in their long career. He's generally been a 50 point center his whole career

 

[dredeye]

Valuewise, I stand by it. What's the last pending UFA that returned an equivalent or better player that was more productive?

Production wise, 80 point player >>> 50 point player.

Player with 12 goals >>> player with 3 goals.

This isn't rocket science. Nobody outside of Boston thinks that the two are close.

You realize Hyman's career average was 50 point winger outside of last year. Same with RNH. Outlier season aren't the baseline they are the exception to the rule. One plays on the top line with more minutes with the best center in the world and the other is centre by Zacha. Can you spot the differences?

 

[josra33]

Why does Boston do this? What problem does it solve?