Proposal: Edm-Col-Ana

[dracom]

Your failure to understand logic is absurd.

The statement that I am refuting is that if a player is injured it lessens their impact while on the ice. People have suggested that because Pouliot has missed a number of games in the last 2 years it makes him a 3rd line player. I am suggesting that a player doesn't go from being a 2nd line player down to a 3rd line player simply due to injuries. Crosby was one example to support that theory. It is your failure if you can not understand the difference between evidence to support a theory and actually comparing two very different level players.

My question remains is such. Was Crosby a 3rd line player in 11/12 when he put up 37 points, or was he a 1st line player with injury issues?

No, you're completely missing the point we're all making. Pouliot has been a 3rd liner his whole career. His two seasons in Edmonton where he plays with offensively gifted player btw, and had a increase in PPG, but didn't actually produce more than 40 points does not make him a 2nd line player.

Until he can actually put up points, not hypothetically put up points, but real life points, he's a 3rd liner.

 

[ManofSteel55]

That's fair. So by the Knuble comparison, you have no problem if we will call Pouliot a 3rd liner until he actually hits the 20goal and 40 pt mark.

Fair?

Not exactly, because while playing he was on pace to do both. My issue here, and one that I think I have stated numerous times, is that being injured does not take a guy from being a 1st or 2nd line player and make them a 3rd or 4th line player. While healthy, Pouliot has put up 2nd line production for his entire time as an Oiler. That is the last 2 seasons. How long does a player have to put up a second line scoring pace before he becomes a second line player? I would think 2 seasons is enough.

 

[liquiduck]

No, I see that point completely.

And even admitted that prior to coming to Edmonton he WAS a third line player. I am suggesting that Pouliot has elevated his play since becoming an Oiler, be it by actually improving as a player or being given the chance to fill a role that he could have filled earlier but was not given the chance to.

Now, are you are conceding that his play in Edmonton while healthy saw 2nd line production?

Look back at like my second post in this discussion. I'm fine with saying he's produced like a 2nd liner his last two seasons.

That doesn't mean he is a second liner. He could have found another level to his game, or it could be a flash in the pan. His track record is that of a 3rd liner, and two seasons where he couldn't stay healthy aren't enough to convince me otherwise.


Maybe he becomes another Knubel, or maybe he just had a couple good half seasons. Is it not fair to say I want to see him actually post those numbers over a whole year before calling him a second liner?

 

[dracom]

Not exactly, because while playing he was on pace to do both. My issue here, and one that I think I have stated numerous times, is that being injured does not take a guy from being a 1st or 2nd line player and make them a 3rd or 4th line player. While healthy, Pouliot has put up 2nd line production for his entire time as an Oiler. That is the last 2 seasons. How long does a player have to put up a second line scoring pace before he becomes a second line player? I would think 2 seasons is enough.

He needs to actually put up 2nd line caliber point totals. He has yet to do so.

 

[liquiduck]

Not exactly, because while playing he was on pace to do both. My issue here, and one that I think I have stated numerous times, is that being injured does not take a guy from being a 1st or 2nd line player and make them a 3rd or 4th line player. While healthy, Pouliot has put up 2nd line production for his entire time as an Oiler. That is the last 2 seasons. How long does a player have to put up a second line scoring pace before he becomes a second line player? I would think 2 seasons is enough.

It's not two season tho. It's not even 1 1/2 seasons.

 

[ManofSteel55]

No, you're completely missing the point we're all making. Pouliot has been a 3rd liner his whole career. His two seasons in Edmonton where he plays with offensively gifted player btw, and had a increase in PPG, but didn't actually produce more than 40 points does not make him a 2nd line player.

Until he can actually put up points, not hypothetically put up points, but real life points, he's a 3rd liner.

No, I am not missing your point. I simply disagree with it and find your logic to be flawed.

1) Pouliot was a 3rd liner before coming to Edmonton. Yes. Agreed.
2) Pouliot never played with Hall, had only some time with Nuge, and because of injuries to both him and McDavid this year, didn't have a glut of time there either. The Oilers roster the past 2 seasons has been a blender due to injuries. So let's not suggest that the only reason Pouliot is producing is because he plays with good players. And even if it were, many many players in the NHL have become respected 2nd line players by feeding off of superstar talents.
3) I admit that he hasn't produced 40 points. I reject the suggestion that 40 points over a full season is the standard for 2nd line production, and more importantly, reject the notion that games lost to injury can make a player who otherwise produces at a 2nd line rate into a 3rd line player. As I've said numerous times, when healthy, Pouliot has his most recent 2 seasons as producing as a 2nd line player. If you want to call him a 2nd line player who has injury issues, go ahead I guess, I won't argue that he hasn't missed time. But I will argue when you try to suggest that he is a 3rd line player despite 2 seasons of 2nd line production.

 

[ManofSteel55]

He needs to actually put up 2nd line caliber point totals. He has yet to do so.

Let me ask again (I've asked others, maybe not you).

Does Pouliot missing a game(s) affect his ability to play the game when he is healthy?

 

[ManofSteel55]

It's not two season tho. It's not even 1 1/2 seasons.

It is 2 seasons. His most recent 2 seasons. Missing games doesn't bump him from being a 2nd line producer while healthy to being a 3rd line one, does it?

 

[liquiduck]

It is 2 seasons. His most recent 2 seasons. Missing games doesn't bump him from being a 2nd line producer while healthy to being a 3rd line one, does it?

113 games is not two seasons worth.

You're startng to grasp. If Maroon goes out and scores 20 pts in his 1st 40 games next year and then has a season ending injury is he all of a sudden a 2nd liner?

 

[nabob]

Comparing a guy who played 55 games to players that played 82 are we? Do you even know how to use statistics?

Try comparing Pouliot when he was playing 3rd line minutes to when he's been given 2nd line minutes. His best P/60s in full seasons were when he played less minutes as a 3rd liner in MTL, BOS and TB. His number is inflated this year and last year because he didn't play the whole season. Sample size is important.

You do realize that he wouldn't be playing 3rd line minutes on the Ducks right?

If he had played only 10-15 games yeah you could say the numbers are inflated. But we're talking a sample size that's over 100 games. That's a large sample size. If you're talking P/60 then the stats can't be considered "inflated" because of he whole "/60" part lol.

 

[ManofSteel55]

113 games is not two seasons worth.

You're startng to grasp. If Maroon goes out and scores 20 pts in his 1st 40 games next year and then has a season ending injury is he all of a sudden a 2nd liner?

I'm not grasping, it is the same thing I have been saying the entire discussion. For two full seasons, while healthy, Benoit Pouliot has played a 2nd line role, produced at a second line pace, and done well in all facets of the game while doing so. You are suggesting that because of what he did prior to those seasons, which I am dismissing as irrelevant for multiple reasons, and that his injuries make what he brings not 2nd line ability, but 3rd line ability. How does missing games change the affect that Pouliot has while he is on the ice? I've asked this question multiple times and have heard no response.

If Maroon were to go out and score 20 points in 40 games next year then I would suggest that while an Oiler he has been a 2nd line producer, which would be true. Again, missing games doesn't affect what a player does on the ice. You can add the "injury plagued" tag to him if you like, but it wouldn't change that he produced like a 2nd line player while healthy, would it?

 

[dracom]

No, I am not missing your point. I simply disagree with it and find your logic to be flawed.

1) Pouliot was a 3rd liner before coming to Edmonton. Yes. Agreed.
2) Pouliot never played with Hall, had only some time with Nuge, and because of injuries to both him and McDavid this year, didn't have a glut of time there either. The Oilers roster the past 2 seasons has been a blender due to injuries. So let's not suggest that the only reason Pouliot is producing is because he plays with good players. And even if it were, many many players in the NHL have become respected 2nd line players by feeding off of superstar talents.
3) I admit that he hasn't produced 40 points. I reject the suggestion that 40 points over a full season is the standard for 2nd line production, and more importantly, reject the notion that games lost to injury can make a player who otherwise produces at a 2nd line rate into a 3rd line player. As I've said numerous times, when healthy, Pouliot has his most recent 2 seasons as producing as a 2nd line player. If you want to call him a 2nd line player who has injury issues, go ahead I guess, I won't argue that he hasn't missed time. But I will argue when you try to suggest that he is a 3rd line player despite 2 seasons of 2nd line production.

For the bold, I went through and looked at the game logs for the games he recorded a point in last season; only 8 points he produced were from players that aren't the big ones (McDavid, Hall, RNH, Eberle, Drai). The rest of his point production comes off of those players. So yeah, it's fair to suggest he is producing more because of good players around him.

That's fine you reject it, but you're not going to convince us that he's a 2nd liner when he has not produced like one; and until he actually does he'll be a 3rd liner in our eyes.

Let me ask again (I've asked others, maybe not you).

Does Pouliot missing a game(s) affect his ability to play the game when he is healthy?

No? Not sure why you're asking this since it has nothing do with what I said. I simply said he needs to produce 2nd line caliber point totals, which he hasn't done yet. Until then, you're arguing for hypothetical point production.

 

[liquiduck]

I'm not grasping, it is the same thing I have been saying the entire discussion. For two full seasons, while healthy, Benoit Pouliot has played a 2nd line role, produced at a second line pace, and done well in all facets of the game while doing so. You are suggesting that because of what he did prior to those seasons, which I am dismissing as irrelevant for multiple reasons, and that his injuries make what he brings not 2nd line ability, but 3rd line ability. How does missing games change the affect that Pouliot has while he is on the ice? I've asked this question multiple times and have heard no response.

If Maroon were to go out and score 20 points in 40 games next year then I would suggest that while an Oiler he has been a 2nd line producer, which would be true. Again, missing games doesn't affect what a player does on the ice. You can add the "injury plagued" tag to him if you like, but it wouldn't change that he produced like a 2nd line player while healthy, would it?

Except again it's not 2 full seasons. Again, it's not even 1 1/2 seasons.

Saying 113 games is 2 " full" seasons is grasping.

Saying someone has produced like a 2nd liner while on team X and then using that to extrapolate outwards that the player is then a 2nd liner is a logical flaw.

 

[ManofSteel55]

For the bold, I went through and looked at the game logs for the games he recorded a point in last season; only 8 points he produced were from players that aren't the big ones (McDavid, Hall, RNH, Eberle, Drai). The rest of his point production comes off of those players. So yeah, it's fair to suggest he is producing more because of good players around him.

That's fine you reject it, but you're not going to convince us that he's a 2nd liner when he has not produced like one; and until he actually does he'll be a 3rd liner in our eyes.

No? Not sure why you're asking this since it has nothing do with what I said. I simply said he needs to produce 2nd line caliber point totals, which he hasn't done yet. Until then, you're arguing for hypothetical point production.

I would suggest that he compliments those players, not feeds off of them like you are suggesting. I would also suggest that if you look at any of those players, a vast majority of their points came off of playing with the others.

I keep asking you that because while healthy, Pouliot does produce 2nd line totals while healthy. He has for 2 years now. You are seemingly implying that him missing time makes this 2nd line production into 3rd line production. Which isn't true at all.

In the past 2 years, Pouliot has spent 113 games healthy, where he has been producing and playing well as a 2nd liner. He has also spent 51 games injured and out of the lineup. He has spent exactly zero games playing and producing as a 3rd line player. Call him a 2nd line winger who has had some injuries if you like. But calling him a 3rd line winger at this point in his career is incorrect. You keep trying to use his games injured as evidence to take away from what he does while on the ice. It has no affect on it at all.

 

[ManofSteel55]

Except again it's not 2 full seasons. Again, it's not even 1 1/2 seasons.

Saying 113 games is 2 " full" seasons is grasping.

Saying someone has produced like a 2nd liner while on team X and then using that to extrapolate outwards that the player is then a 2nd liner is a logical flaw.

I never suggested it was 2 full seasons. I suggested that in every game Pouliot played in over his past two seasons, he has been a 2nd line player.

I would suggest that ignoring a players most recent 113 games is grasping. I would also suggest that saying a player has produced like a 2nd line player for multiple seasons on his current team is far more logical than looking back to 3+ years ago when he was on other teams as more sound evidence than what the player has done in the past 2 years.

And finally, I am suggesting that man games lost to injury have no bearing on a player's ranking as a 2nd or 3rd line player. He is either a 2nd or 3rd line player while playing, and injuries don't affect that performance. Pouliot, while playing, has been a 2nd line player for 113 of his last 113 games played. He was injured for 51 games last season. Nowhere in the last two seasons has Pouliot produced as a 3rd line player.

From your reasoning, I take it that you think his injuries are what takes him from being a 2nd line player to a 3rd line player. I reject that theory as well, as the two are not connected. A 2nd line player on the injured reserve is not all of a sudden a 3rd line player. He is an injured 2nd line player. Of course this affects his value, but it doesn't take away from the fact that Benoit Pouliot is a 2nd line player.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

A second liner who cant stay healthy is worth even less than a 3rd liner who can.

What gm wants to pay 4mil for less than 60 games?

 

[liquiduck]

I would suggest that ignoring a players most recent 113 games is grasping. I would also suggest that saying a player has produced like a 2nd line player for multiple seasons on his current team is far more logical than looking back to 3+ years ago when he was on other teams as more sound evidence than what the player has done in the past 2 years.

And finally, I am suggesting that man games lost to injury have no bearing on a player's ranking as a 2nd or 3rd line player. He is either a 2nd or 3rd line player while playing, and injuries don't affect that performance. Pouliot, while playing, has been a 2nd line player for 113 of his last 113 games played. He was injured for 51 games last season. Nowhere in the last two seasons has Pouliot produced as a 3rd line player.

Why do you keep saying I'm ignroing those 113 games? I'm just saying based on his other 371 games of sub 2nd line production. I want to see more.

Carl Haglin. IN 43 games for the ducks he posted 12 points. SO on the Ducks he produced like a 4th liner. Thus, Haglin must be a 4th liner. See what I did there?

 

[ManofSteel55]

A second liner who cant stay healthy is worth even less than a 3rd liner who can.

This isn't a value discussion. This discussion is whether Benoit Pouliot is a 2nd liner or a 3rd liner.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

This isn't a value discussion. This discussion is whether Benoit Pouliot is a 2nd liner or a 3rd liner.

Hes a middle six player. On a good team like rangers hes a bottom six, on the oilers he can play top six and not look out of place but at the same time cant stay healthy.

 

[ManofSteel55]

Why do you keep saying I'm ignroing those 113 games? I'm just saying based on his other 371 games of sub 2nd line production. I want to see more.

Carl Haglin. IN 43 games for the ducks he posted 12 points. SO on the Ducks he produced like a 4th liner. Thus, Haglin must be a 4th liner. See what I did there?

I am suggesting that you are ignoring those games because you are holding more weight to 371 prior games on other teams, earlier in the players career when he wasn't the player he is now, and was given a different role than he has now. Perhaps you aren't ignoring them completely, but you sure seem to be brushing them aside in favour of picking the games that suit your argument.

Haglin's most recent games played show otherwise. His Ducks performance can safely be written off as an outlier, be it due to a bad fit or a bad few months or many other reasons. Pouliot has been a consistent performer over the past two seasons.

 

[ManofSteel55]

Hes a middle six player. On a good team like rangers hes a bottom six, on the oilers he can play top six and not look out of place but at the same time cant stay healthy.

Well, I would suggest that Edmonton has a better top six than the Rangers and Pouliot has done well for us. I would also suggest that the Rangers having Pouliot playing 2nd line LW instead of J.T. Miller wouldn't be any worse off, might even be better.

Health affects value, but doesn't affect whether a player is a 2nd liner or a 3rd liner.

 

[HanSolo]

This isn't a value discussion. This discussion is whether Benoit Pouliot is a 2nd liner or a 3rd liner.

What we can't discuss value in a trade proposal thread? YOU are talking about what line he belongs on and in all honesty given Anaheim's current roster he probably would be in our top 6 for all of 30 games.

But the discussion at hand in this thread is whether this is a good trade for the teams involved. It's not worth it for Anaheim. Regardless of how good you think he is.

 

[liquiduck]

I am suggesting that you are ignoring those games because you are holding more weight to 371 prior games on other teams, earlier in the players career when he wasn't the player he is now, and was given a different role than he has now. Perhaps you aren't ignoring them completely, but you sure seem to be brushing them aside in favour of picking the games that suit your argument.

Haglin's most recent games played show otherwise. His Ducks performance can safely be written off as an outlier, be it due to a bad fit or a bad few months or many other reasons. Pouliot has been a consistent performer over the past two seasons.

Ok now we are getting somewhere. You're admitting other factors play a role here. One of which is track record. We are able to make the conclusion that it was an outlier because of his track record. Take Haglin most recent games. In 37 games for the penguins he scored 27 points. 1st line winger production. So, since Hanglin prouced like a 1st liner on the penguins, he must be a 1st liner. right? Niether is an accurate descrpition of the player.

 

[GirardSpinorama]

Well, I would suggest that Edmonton has a better top six than the Rangers and Pouliot has done well for us. I would also suggest that the Rangers having Pouliot playing 2nd line LW instead of J.T. Miller wouldn't be any worse off, might even be better.

Health affects value, but doesn't affect whether a player is a 2nd liner or a 3rd liner.

If thats the case, pouliot wouldnt be a 40point 3rd liner when he was in NY. If you are suggesting that he somehow got better as a player, sorry to break it to you but he didnt.

 

[FightingIrish17]

A 1st rounder, an overpaid third liner, and an OK prospect is not remotely a steep price for a 24 year old 50 point defensman. It's a complete rip off.

I agree it isn't fair, but Pouliot produces at a solid 2nd line rate. Again, it's not a fair deal, but over exaggerating or unnecessarily downplaying players doesn't positively contribute to the discussion. I think the Oilers would have to add more, but Pouliot is a good player.