Proposal: Edm-Col-Ana

[Avs44]

Crosby had 37 points in 11/12. I guess he must have been an injury prone 3rd liner that season, right? I mean, he was over 1.5 ppg that season, but ppg doesn't matter when a player can't surpass 40 points.

That's an appalling argument. Crosby had and has more than displayed his production abilities, which means a season like that can be dismissed / extrapolated. Let me know when Pouliot actually breaks 40 points in reality, not just hypothetically.

 

[liquiduck]

I'm perfectly fine with calling him a 3rd liner (or even 4th liner at times) in his career before he came to Edmonton. But the facts are that he has put up 2nd line numbers while healthy since day one as an Oiler. When in the lineup, he has been a 2nd line player. And a good one at that. Being injured doesn't take a guy from being a 2nd line player to a 3rd line player.

I'm fine saying he's produced like a 2nd liner the last couple years. I'd agree with that. But I dont think many would see his value as a 2nd line winger.

He's a career 3rd liner. Quite literally.

 

[oilerbear]

EDM: T. Barrie
COL: C. Fowler + G. Reinhart
ANA: EDM 2017 1st (top 5 protected, '18 1st if top 5) + B. Pouliot (25% retained, 3M cap)

the average Wild card record for Playoff entry is
42W - 28 L - 12 OT/SOL 96P

Special teams goal differential dictates what EVGF- EVGA = goal differential is needed to have a chance at that Wild card record.

An even Special team PPGF = PPGA means the offence must generate
+.20 EVgoal diff/60 in a 48 even minute period.


So for the 48 Even minutes a game a team needs to have a
.20 X (60/48) = +.25 EVGD/60.
Offence GF must be better .25/60 than Def GA.

25% of goals come from the 17-21 LSCA shots
and
75% come from the from the 7.5 to 13.5 HSCA shots.

A team should probably try and Find D that reduce shots/gm and HSCA/gm
cause they make is as much as 33.3% easier to save goals.

PC said there are 15-17 #1 D in the game.
1. they clear have to be able to defend 1st comp.

Off dmen only generate even offence like a #10 Fwd.
PC has often stated getting the puck as quiclkly into the hand of the players who score is critical. that would be the forwards #1-9 who outscore almost all D.

He does not want Dmen who skate the puck up allowing the opposition D to reset for Ozone entry and defending the HSCA. Were 75% of goals come from.

2. So he is looking for top 60 EVA D

3. He wants Shot suppression; HSCA/60 D that provide goalies a chance to have great EVGA/60

So if we look at D
1.1st comp;
2. top EVA/60 D;
3.Supress SA and HSCA

we get a list of!
Braun
Deykeyser
Ekblad
Hedman
Klefbom
Larsson
Lindholm
Vlasic
8 Dmen.

now if we just look at
1. 1st comp
3. Supress SA and HSCA
that adds
Dehaan
Edler
A. Greene
Hainsey
Hjarlmasson
Manson
Martin
Niskanen.
that adds another 8 D to existing 8D

these are 16 D that face the best and Prevent opposition from getting a high shot count and preventing shots were 75% of golas come 1/3 of the games shots.
These would be the strong defensive d in the game.

I am used to seeing Weber; Doughty; Muzzin; Stralman; Brodie; Suter; Brodin, Lovejoy's names in the group.
But they had down years.

As an oiler fan I look at:

Larsson
top 10 Comp
top 60 EVA/60
Top 60 SA/60
top 20 HSCA D
#2 EVGA/60
top 20 PKGA/60

Klefbom
top 40 comp
top 30 EVA/60
Top 60 SA/60
top 60 HSCA D
top 20 PKGA/60

Davidson
2nd comp
Top 40 SA/60
Top 30 HSCA D
top 30 EVGA/60
Top 20 PKGA/60

2 of the 18 #1 Def D.
PC said he was comfortable with were the roster was at.

Expansion Draft protected:
Lucic NMC
Eberle
Draisalt
RNH

Sekera NMC top SA/60 and top 10 HSCA D versus 2nd comp.
Bottom 40 SA/60 and HSCA D versu s 1st comp.
Larsson #1 EV/PK GA d in game.
Klefbom
Davidson one of 5 elite PK and EVGA d in game.

Talbot
top 5 HSCA save5 goalie.

Mcdavid
JP
Nurse
Slepyshev
EXp draft Exempt.

 

[mytduxfan*]

Whoosh! Missed the point completely.

Crosby had 37 points in 11/12. I guess he must have been an injury prone 3rd liner that season, right? I mean, he was over 1.5 ppg that season, but ppg doesn't matter when a player can't surpass 40 points.

Was going to counter, but I see the other two posters beat me to it. Your argument is awful. I guess I'm not the only to ("Whoosh!") miss the point completely when it comes to your Pouliot/Crosby comparisons.

 

[Draiskull]

I'd be all for Pouliot if the asset was Despres and not Fowler.

How about just

Ana: Pouliot 500k retained

Edm: Despres + 4th rounder

Oilers cant really afford to trade Pouliot this year unless they are getting a better LWer somewhere else.

Lucic-Maroon-Caggiula-Hendricks down the left side just wouldnt cut it.

Despres is neither a RHD nor a PPQB .. Not really what the Oilers need.

Only ANA Dman that makes sense for the Oilers is Vatanen. Chia would surely be willing to overpay for him.

 

[liquiduck]

Oilers cant really afford to trade Pouliot this year unless they are getting a better LWer somewhere else.

Lucic-Maroon-Caggiula-Hendricks down the left side just wouldnt cut it.

Despres is neither a RHD nor a PPQB .. Not really what the Oilers need.

Only ANA Dman that makes sense for the Oilers is Vatanen. Chia would surely be willing to overpay for him.

Despres plays the right side tho. Yes, he's not a PP QB, but he's mobile, and big just like Chia likes them.

Besides Pool party is a left winger is he not? You guys are loaded upfront.

 

[nvn]

So fowler for something that's gonna be a fowler at best or a bust at worst?

 

[Draiskull]

Despres plays the right side tho. Yes, he's not a PP QB, but he's mobile, and big just like Chia likes them.

Besides Pool party is a left winger is he not? You guys are loaded upfront.

I like Despres but Chia has mentioned the importance of handedness way too many times to think he would want to add another LHD without losing one.

is pool party really sticking? its not even any shorter than typing his last name and sounds pretty lame. Line dance and pool party the 2 Finns. and no Puljujarvi is a RHS RWer.

 

[liquiduck]

I like Despres but Chia has mentioned the importance of handedness way too many times to think he would want to add another LHD without losing one.

is pool party really sticking? its not even any shorter than typing his last name and sounds pretty lame. Line dance and pool party the 2 Finns. and no Puljujarvi is a RHS RWer.

Pool part is just easy to spell

Yes, I'm lazy.

Obviously I don't know what Chia has said regarding handedness, but again Despres plays on the right side. That would be another guy that EDM could slot on the second pairing.

Klefbom - Larsson
Sekera - Despres

That's a solid top 4 right there.

If Pouliot really wasn't a movable asset then why is he in a proposal for Fowler ?

 

[ManofSteel55]

Yet Crosby had proven he was a elite 1st liner already, one bad season because of injury doesn't take that away. Pouliot has never produced more than 40 points in his whole career, even when he was healthy. Nice try though.

How can you count ppg for one guy but not the other? You're picking the argument that best suits your needs here regardless of it staying with the logic of your previous arguments.

A better example might be Mike Camalleri then. Last year he was nearly a point per game. Most years he produces like a first liner when healthy, but misses so many games that he puts up numbers rather similar to Pouliot's. So is Camalleri a 3rd line winger then? No. He is a top six winger (some would say top line and I wouldn't argue much) who is hurt a lot. Topping out at high 30's low 40's point production doesn't change the fact that when he is on the ice he is a 1st/2nd line winger. Same with Pouliot. Since given the chance to be a 2nd line player in Edmonton, he has been. When healthy. Not being healthy doesn't miraculously move a guy down the depth chart or make him a worse player when healthy.

I can't believe that so many don't understand this.

 

[ManofSteel55]

Was going to counter, but I see the other two posters beat me to it. Your argument is awful. I guess I'm not the only to ("Whoosh!") miss the point completely when it comes to your Pouliot/Crosby comparisons.

The part that you fail to understand (or acknowledge, as I think you know exactly what I am saying but are ignoring the logic behind it because it kills your argument) is that it isn't a Crosby-Pouliot comparison. It is simply a way to state that a guy being injured doesn't make him a lesser player when he is healthy. And when healthy, since he came to Edmonton, Pouliot has been a 2nd line player in production.

Let me ask you this. In the 55 games last season where Pouliot put up 36 points, was he a capable 2nd line player. Nevermind, don't answer, you probably didn't watch a single one of those games anyway and even if you had you wouldn't answer honestly. I'll answer it. Yes, in those 55 games, Benoit Pouliot played like a 2nd line player. And guess what, in 58 games he played the year before he was a 2nd line player as well.

Being injured doesn't take a guy from being a 1st or 2nd line player to being a depth player when they are healthy. If you think otherwise, please explain why, as you haven't done so yet.

 

[ManofSteel55]

I'm fine saying he's produced like a 2nd liner the last couple years. I'd agree with that. But I dont think many would see his value as a 2nd line winger.

He's a career 3rd liner. Quite literally.

If he has produced like a 2nd liner in his past 2 seasons, is he not currently a 2nd liner? I would agree that up until Edmonton he was a 3rd liner. But that isn't what he is today.

If we're valuing players at what they were 3 years ago, you guys must be getting tons of interest in Bieksa.

 

[liquiduck]

The part that you fail to understand (or acknowledge, as I think you know exactly what I am saying but are ignoring the logic behind it because it kills your argument) is that it isn't a Crosby-Pouliot comparison. It is simply a way to state that a guy being injured doesn't make him a lesser player when he is healthy. And when healthy, since he came to Edmonton, Pouliot has been a 2nd line player in production.

Let me ask you this. In the 55 games last season where Pouliot put up 36 points, was he a capable 2nd line player. Nevermind, don't answer, you probably didn't watch a single one of those games anyway and even if you had you wouldn't answer honestly. I'll answer it. Yes, in those 55 games, Benoit Pouliot played like a 2nd line player. And guess what, in 58 games he played the year before he was a 2nd line player as well.

Being injured doesn't take a guy from being a 1st or 2nd line player to being a depth player when they are healthy. If you think otherwise, please explain why, as you haven't done so yet.

That's fine, but it still doesn't make him a 2nd line player. 113 games of a second line production out of 484 career games does not make him a second liner.

 

[ManofSteel55]

That's fine, but it still doesn't make him a 2nd line player. 113 games of a second line production out of 484 career games does not make him a second liner.

It does if it is his most recent 113 games.

 

[dracom]

How can you count ppg for one guy but not the other? You're picking the argument that best suits your needs here regardless of it staying with the logic of your previous arguments.

A better example might be Mike Camalleri then. Last year he was nearly a point per game. Most years he produces like a first liner when healthy, but misses so many games that he puts up numbers rather similar to Pouliot's. So is Camalleri a 3rd line winger then? No. He is a top six winger (some would say top line and I wouldn't argue much) who is hurt a lot. Topping out at high 30's low 40's point production doesn't change the fact that when he is on the ice he is a 1st/2nd line winger. Same with Pouliot. Since given the chance to be a 2nd line player in Edmonton, he has been. When healthy. Not being healthy doesn't miraculously move a guy down the depth chart or make him a worse player when healthy.

I can't believe that so many don't understand this.

You're acting as if Pouliot has been a 2nd liner his whole career, just like Crosby and Cammalleri have been top line players for theirs. That's where you comparison falls apart. You can't compare Pouliot who has not produced as 2nd liner ever to players who have produced at first line rates in previous years, but couldn't due to age/injury in certain year.

Pouliot is a 3rd liner who can put up points with highly offensive players (I wonder why his PPG went up?) so he can be a 2nd liner when needed. He's not a full fledged 2nd liner on his own. He's only putting up number now because of the players around him. Take those players away, and he goes back to be a regular injury prone 3rd liner.

 

[liquiduck]

If he has produced like a 2nd liner in his past 2 seasons, is he not currently a 2nd liner? I would agree that up until Edmonton he was a 3rd liner. But that isn't what he is today.

If we're valuing players at what they were 3 years ago, you guys must be getting tons of interest in Bieksa.

No. One, because he never stayed healthy long enough to see it through, and 2, because for 4/5 of his career over 484 games he hasn't been.

Bieksa was a much better player for a whole heck of a lot longer than Pouliot has been. Besides you're comparing a 27 year old forward( 3 years ago Pouiot) to a 35 year old defensemen. Needless to say, that's a pretty off comparison.

 

[HanSolo]

How can you count ppg for one guy but not the other? You're picking the argument that best suits your needs here regardless of it staying with the logic of your previous arguments.

A better example might be Mike Camalleri then. Last year he was nearly a point per game. Most years he produces like a first liner when healthy, but misses so many games that he puts up numbers rather similar to Pouliot's. So is Camalleri a 3rd line winger then? No. He is a top six winger (some would say top line and I wouldn't argue much) who is hurt a lot. Topping out at high 30's low 40's point production doesn't change the fact that when he is on the ice he is a 1st/2nd line winger. Same with Pouliot. Since given the chance to be a 2nd line player in Edmonton, he has been. When healthy. Not being healthy doesn't miraculously move a guy down the depth chart or make him a worse player when healthy.

I can't believe that so many don't understand this.

Because Crosby has a history of winning hart and art Ross trophies. Pouilot doesn't. Your comparison is absurd.

The fact is he does get injured a lot (why would we want an injury prone player who makes as much as he does?) and has never even cracked 40 points. The ducks can get a better package from Detroit for Fowler.

 

[liquiduck]

It does if it is his most recent 113 games.

Not when the 113 games were spread across two 2/3 seasons, where he still didn't eclipse 40 pts.

 

[dracom]

It does if it is his most recent 113 games.

He's 30, he's not going to get better. He was a 3rd liner his whole career; he's not going to magically get better as he ages. He's a career 3rd liner and will be for his career.

 

[ManofSteel55]

He's 30, he's not going to get better. He was a 3rd liner his whole career; he's not going to magically get better as he ages. He's a career 3rd liner and will be for his career.

Let's look at an example then, shall we?

Mike Knuble. He was a depth playing checker until 30, but was given a 2nd line role and scored 20 goals for 8 straight years after, including a pair of 30 goal seasons. Before his breakout he was a 20 point player, one outlier aside. So would it have been accurate to call him a third/fourth line player after a couple of seasons where he scored 30 goals and followed it up with another 20, simply because he had 6 years before of being a depth checker?

Not to mention that if you look at Pouliot's on ice performance for the past 2 seasons, it is quite obvious that he is a more effective (ie, better) player (or just used properly?) than he was earlier in his career.

 

[ManofSteel55]

Not when the 113 games were spread across two 2/3 seasons, where he still didn't eclipse 40 pts.

Now you are failing to register the difference between on ice play and injured reserve. In those 113 games, are you comfortable suggesting that Benoit Pouliot played like a 3rd line player despite scoring 70 points? Care to show me other comparable 3rd line players that have put up 70 points over their most recent 113 games?

 

[liquiduck]

Let's look at an example then, shall we?

Mike Knuble. He was a depth playing checker until 30, but was given a 2nd line role and scored 20 goals for 8 straight years after, including a pair of 30 goal seasons. Before his breakout he was a 20 point player, one outlier aside. So would it have been accurate to call him a third/fourth line player after a couple of seasons where he scored 30 goals and followed it up with another 20, simply because he had 6 years before of being a depth checker?

Not to mention that if you look at Pouliot's on ice performance for the past 2 seasons, it is quite obvious that he is a more effective (ie, better) player (or just used properly?) than he was earlier in his career.

That's fair. So by the Knuble comparison, you have no problem if we will call Pouliot a 3rd liner until he actually hits the 20goal and 40 pt mark.

Fair?

 

[ManofSteel55]

Because Crosby has a history of winning hart and art Ross trophies. Pouilot doesn't. Your comparison is absurd.

The fact is he does get injured a lot (why would we want an injury prone player who makes as much as he does?) and has never even cracked 40 points. The ducks can get a better package from Detroit for Fowler.

Your failure to understand logic is absurd.

The statement that I am refuting is that if a player is injured it lessens their impact while on the ice. People have suggested that because Pouliot has missed a number of games in the last 2 years it makes him a 3rd line player. I am suggesting that a player doesn't go from being a 2nd line player down to a 3rd line player simply due to injuries. Crosby was one example to support that theory. It is your failure if you can not understand the difference between evidence to support a theory and actually comparing two very different level players.

My question remains is such. Was Crosby a 3rd line player in 11/12 when he put up 37 points, or was he a 1st line player with injury issues?

 

[liquiduck]

Now you are failing to register the difference between on ice play and injured reserve. In those 113 games, are you comfortable suggesting that Benoit Pouliot played like a 3rd line player despite scoring 70 points? Care to show me other comparable 3rd line players that have put up 70 points over their most recent 113 games?

You're missing the point.

Two half seasons of 2nd liner production don't supercede 371 games of 3rd line production.

 

[ManofSteel55]

You're missing the point.

Two half seasons of 2nd liner production don't supercede a 371 games of 3rd line production.

No, I see that point completely.

And even admitted that prior to coming to Edmonton he WAS a third line player. I am suggesting that Pouliot has elevated his play since becoming an Oiler, be it by actually improving as a player or being given the chance to fill a role that he could have filled earlier but was not given the chance to.

Now, are you are conceding that his play in Edmonton while healthy saw 2nd line production?