Dreger: Duchene Mega-thread: Habs, NSH inquired about Duchene. Asking price is ridiculous.

[Captain Mountain]

Larsson's pairing play against other team's top lines, he faces the toughest competition playing on a playoff contender in a tough division. He is a top pairing D.

Every pairing plays against the other teams top lines, Larsson doesn't do it as much as most top-pairs. Ditto with competition. Edmonton play their top two pairs fairly evenly, neither gets a real competition or minutes push. Larsson is 4th on the team in D TOI (although 2nd at even strength). The Pacific is a mediocre division, the only tough one this year is the Met.

And again, I can say the same about Emelin. Just because a guy CAN play certain minutes, doesn't mean he SHOULD play certain minutes. I like Larsson a lot, but he's a defensman playing on the top pair, not a top pairing D.

 

[Ivan13]

Every pairing plays against the other teams top lines, Larsson doesn't do it as much as most top-pairs. Ditto with competition. Edmonton play their top two pairs fairly evenly, neither gets a real competition or minutes push. Larsson is 4th on the team in D TOI (although 2nd at even strength). The Pacific is a mediocre division, the only tough one this year is the Met.

And again, I can say the same about Emelin. Just because a guy CAN play certain minutes, doesn't mean he SHOULD play certain minutes. I like Larsson a lot, but he's a defensman playing on the top pair, not a top pairing D.

The thing is he is nothing like Yemelin, he can and should play those minutes, he is extremely reliable defensively, has high hockey IQ and the only thing missing to be considered a #1 is the offense, he is a good #2 defensemen, Yemelin is a #4, it's absurd to draw parallels between the two and I'm a Habs fan who is not that fond of Edmonton.

 

[falconski]

But but but but HOW DARE YOU NOT EMBRACE MY TEAM IMPROVEMENT FANTASIES AS YOUR OWN




Seriously, it's like the Johansen discussions all over again, except this time I get to be a side observer rather than in the middle of it all.

Avs fans are probably more annoyed because we went through the same thing with ROR

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

Avs fans are probably more annoyed because we went through the same thing with ROR

Let's take a quick look at the ROR trade though:

Request for Duchene - Equivalent in the ROR deal (assuming McGinn had value equal to 2nd round DP)

Young (<24 YO) Top 4 Dman - None
1st round DP - Grigorenko
Good d-man prospect - Zadarov
2nd if prospect unproven - Compher

This is really rough. Zadarov is obviously the key part of the deal, but he was completely unproven, and Grigorenko's value wasn't equal to a 1st rounder at the time of the trade. Just seems like Sakic is "requesting" MUCH, MUCH more than he actually got for ROR. Now, Duchesne is under contract for 2.3 years, which increases his value, but he's not the 2 way stud that ROR was.

 

[LOUISVILLE ICE CARDS]

Tell me - last time, when you had this feeling, were you among the other Preds posters who insisted Colin Wilson would be heading back to the Jackets? You didn't actually post anything at the time, but there were a whole lot of folks who are fond of having "seen the trade coming" who also insisted that there was no way Jones would be anywhere near the deal, so... just checking.

I wouldn't be too shocked if Duchene ends up in Preds gold, but they're really trying for a better blueliner than Ekholm as the centerpiece and that's their prerogative. There's kind of recent precedent for that sort of top-center-for-top-blueliner deal, after all.

No I was saying we wouldn't trade Jones unless it was a 1 for 1.

 

[PREDy 4 the Cup]

Subban for duchene please!

 

[Muffin]

Let's take a quick look at the ROR trade though:

Request for Duchene - Equivalent in the ROR deal (assuming McGinn had value equal to 2nd round DP)

Young (<24 YO) Top 4 Dman - None
1st round DP - Grigorenko
Good d-man prospect - Zadarov
2nd if prospect unproven - Compher

This is really rough. Zadarov is obviously the key part of the deal, but he was completely unproven, and Grigorenko's value wasn't equal to a 1st rounder at the time of the trade. Just seems like Sakic is "requesting" MUCH, MUCH more than he actually got for ROR. Now, Duchesne is under contract for 2.3 years, which increases his value, but he's not the 2 way stud that ROR was.

Zadorov was already in the NHL when he was traded...You also conveniently forgot the 31st overall pick...

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

I wonder if this Ribeiro on waivers thing helps Nashville towards a deal to Duchene?

What about:
Fabbro
Fiala
1st
Ellis
Ribeiro (when he inevitably clears)

Now tell me how bad it is haha. Rumored ask price is 3-4 high end pieces, well there they are.

Does anyone honestly think that Duchene is worth that type of return? I understand that is "in line" with what Sakic is apparently asking for, but it seem ludicrous when I look at it. I just can't see a GM gutting the future of his organization to add a Duchene type player.

 

[LondonKendrick]

Hossa was also a rental, which likely lowered his value.

He got three 'top' prospects, two first round prospects + 1st + roster player. Top prospect is a relative term from team to team and Hossa although a rental, was in tier that Duchene hasn't reached.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

Zadorov was already in the NHL when he was traded...You also conveniently forgot the 31st overall pick...

I stated that I removed McGinn & the 2nd round DP as roughly equivelant.

Zadarov wasn't a proven prospect at the time of the deal. He had something like 30 games in the NHL, in which he struggled pretty heavily while showing glimpses of what he was capable. My point is that I wouldn't call him proven at the time of the trade.

 

[EdAVSfan]

I stated that I removed McGinn & the 2nd round DP as roughly equivelant.

Zadarov wasn't a proven prospect at the time of the deal. He had something like 30 games in the NHL, in which he struggled pretty heavily while showing glimpses of what he was capable. My point is that I wouldn't call him proven at the time of the trade.

Actually 67.

He didnt struggle heavily. He had ups and downs. He was a 19 year old playing in the NHL.

He was a decently high pick with a top pairing potential, and with all the physical tools to attain that level.

Again, people are taking the comment quite too literal.

The package significantly changes depending on the defenseman in return.

Is it a top pairing prospect?
Is it a top 4 prospect?
Is it a top pairing guy already?
Is it a top 4 guy already?

The package will be wildly different depending on the defenseman included.

Do people really think the package of assets will be the same if the dman is segachev vs Reilly? Hypothetical to prove the point.

And no way was McGinn worth the 31st overall.

More like McGinn was worth grigorenko

 

[Boxscore]

Does anyone honestly think that Duchene is worth that type of return? I understand that is "in line" with what Sakic is apparently asking for, but it seem ludicrous when I look at it. I just can't see a GM gutting the future of his organization to add a Duchene type player.

No. Duchene is not worth that lol.

 

[Mighty Makar]

Does anyone honestly think that Duchene is worth that type of return? I understand that is "in line" with what Sakic is apparently asking for, but it seem ludicrous when I look at it. I just can't see a GM gutting the future of his organization to add a Duchene type player.

Nope, but we'll gladly take it.

 

[edguy]

Does anyone honestly think that Duchene is worth that type of return? I understand that is "in line" with what Sakic is apparently asking for, but it seem ludicrous when I look at it. I just can't see a GM gutting the future of his organization to add a Duchene type player.

Personally I think the price comes down a little, but not as much as some hope. Your still gonna need to give at least 2 of those players (not Ribiero) and a pick..

 

[Avs44]

I stated that I removed McGinn & the 2nd round DP as roughly equivelant.

Zadarov wasn't a proven prospect at the time of the deal. He had something like 30 games in the NHL, in which he struggled pretty heavily while showing glimpses of what he was capable. My point is that I wouldn't call him proven at the time of the trade.

McGinn was a year from UFA and had played a total of 19 games in the season prior due to major back surgery ending his year. His value was not a 31st overall pick, he was a toss in. We had no idea what he would look like.

 

[Muffin]

I stated that I removed McGinn & the 2nd round DP as roughly equivelant.

Zadarov wasn't a proven prospect at the time of the deal. He had something like 30 games in the NHL, in which he struggled pretty heavily while showing glimpses of what he was capable. My point is that I wouldn't call him proven at the time of the trade.

You're out to lunch if you think McGinn had the same value as the 31st overall pick...

 

[Foppberg]

Does anyone honestly think that Duchene is worth that type of return? I understand that is "in line" with what Sakic is apparently asking for, but it seem ludicrous when I look at it. I just can't see a GM gutting the future of his organization to add a Duchene type player.

It's business 101. Start huge, meet somewhere in the middle.

If Duchene is to get dealt (not 100% on it) I'd assume it'd be something like blue chip defenseman prospect, 1st round pick, and a good prospect. OR, straight up like a Johansen-Jones/ Larsson-Hall type of deal.

 

[General Fanager]

Does anyone honestly think that Duchene is worth that type of return? I understand that is "in line" with what Sakic is apparently asking for, but it seem ludicrous when I look at it. I just can't see a GM gutting the future of his organization to add a Duchene type player.

just my opinion but The Avs do not get what they are asking for right now. A stud D prospect and a 1st is the most. If the D is already established in the NHL then the pick is a 3rd....

 

[ThunderBird]

Let's take a quick look at the ROR trade though:

Request for Duchene - Equivalent in the ROR deal (assuming McGinn had value equal to 2nd round DP)

Young (<24 YO) Top 4 Dman - None
1st round DP - Grigorenko
Good d-man prospect - Zadarov
2nd if prospect unproven - Compher

This is really rough. Zadarov is obviously the key part of the deal, but he was completely unproven, and Grigorenko's value wasn't equal to a 1st rounder at the time of the trade. Just seems like Sakic is "requesting" MUCH, MUCH more than he actually got for ROR. Now, Duchesne is under contract for 2.3 years, which increases his value, but he's not the 2 way stud that ROR was.

Most non-Avs fans told us we were stupid for thinking we could get Zadorov. 98% of Buffalo fans said they would never trade Zadorov a potential #1 dman for ROR. A majority of people here said ROR was a great 3C or an average 2C. Now it's Zadorov is unproven and ROR is a 2 way stud. Hindsight is 20/20.

Most of the defense men that the Avs fans have asked for are unproven top pairing potential prospects. So that is the same depending on the caliber of player obviously lowers the level of roster player (aka a reclamation project like Grigorenko) and the draft pick area. Obviously a first from the Blackhawks carries a lot less value than a first from a bottom 5 team. We are more focused on the unproven top pairing potential prospect than anything else in that list of wants.

 

[Amadeus]

Habs would need to trade Mikhail Sergachev as a starting point for Duchene and they should do it.

Their window is NOW with Price and Weber in their primes.

 

[covfefe]

I'd trade Sergachev for Duchene. Add a top prospect and a pick from our end, whatever filler really, + a cap dump like DD to make the numbers work. I'm sure my opinion's in the minority but that's what this place is all about.

Losing Sergachev would hurt but so will getting knocked out in the conference semis again.

 

[Vern]

It's business 101. Start huge, meet somewhere in the middle.

If Duchene is to get dealt (not 100% on it) I'd assume it'd be something like blue chip defenseman prospect, 1st round pick, and a good prospect. OR, straight up like a Johansen-Jones/ Larsson-Hall type of deal.

How about straight up for Jeff Petry then. Hes around as good as Jones or Larsson and has term.

(K maybe add a 2cnd or something)

 

[Foppberg]

How about straight up for Jeff Petry then. Hes better than Jones or Larsson and has term.

(K maybe add a 2cnd or something)

We got ourselves a comedian folks.

 

[Goldenhands]

Thing is, everyone is like "the asking price is too high" blah blah blah...

but, does Colorado actually need to sell him? No.

To maximize his value? Yes

As an example, MTL could very well sign Shipachev this summer without giving any assets away, then Colorado lose a very good dancing partner since Im pretty sure Bergevin will be one of the most active Gms at the deadline in that Duchene file..

Im also wondering if Avls fans are willing to accept 2 more years of mediocrity and risk to lose Duchene without getting any young assets when his contract expires..

 

[Goldenhands]

Every pairing plays against the other teams top lines, Larsson doesn't do it as much as most top-pairs. Ditto with competition. Edmonton play their top two pairs fairly evenly, neither gets a real competition or minutes push. Larsson is 4th on the team in D TOI (although 2nd at even strength). The Pacific is a mediocre division, the only tough one this year is the Met.

And again, I can say the same about Emelin. Just because a guy CAN play certain minutes, doesn't mean he SHOULD play certain minutes. I like Larsson a lot, but he's a defensman playing on the top pair, not a top pairing D.

Exactly, Larsson doesnt even get time on the PP..