Dreger: Duchene Mega-thread: Habs, NSH inquired about Duchene. Asking price is ridiculous.

[bear16]

Colorado is doing the right thing by asking for the sky and the moon. They have no reason to trade Duchene. I am not too familiar with the Avs, but I haven't heard anything about Duchene being a cancer in the locker room. Why trade away a strong 1 and 2C punch with Duchene and Mackinnon?

The only way this team is going to get better is by getting "glue" guys and a coach that will instill a structured system. For example, as a Kings fan, I would say they need their own Lewis, King, Clifford, Shore etc... These guys have almost zero value in the market, but on the Kings they are essential to helping our well-oiled machine run. If the Kings lost all of these players, and substituted them with rookies or random UFA signings, I can guarantee you that our defensive numbers would be garbage.

Colorado should also seriously consider getting Hitchcock while he is available. He is just like Sutter, and can get a team playing like clockwork.

This.

 

[Gardner McKay]

lol. so OTT should trade Brassard and a 2nd and for Duchene and a 7th and it's a done deal?

Ahh yes. Take a deal that was based off financial reasons not strictly trade value and use it as a barometer for this thread.

You are flat out wrong and will be told so for the remainder of this thread by many different people. Hopefully you can be convinced you are wrong but I dont see that happening.

I don't disagree that his assessment of Zibanejads value is off but Zibanejad + Skjei is worth more than Duchene.

 

[Kafka]

Beaulieu + 1st 2017 + Scherbak + DD/Plekanec for Duchene

Moving Desharnais makes sense. Not Plekanec.

Beside that, I feel Hudon has more value than Sherbak right now. His upside is lower, but he'll make it to the NHL as a very good 2nd line centerman.

 

[Muffin]

Extra Extra: Bad GM asking for way too much for his player. News at 10.

Seriously, if every GM is not willing to pay Sakic's price, it means Sakic is asking too much, not that other GM's are being cheap or underrating Duchene.

And why does Sakic need to trade Duchene? What did we learn from the Drouin and Trouba saga? If a GM doesn't get what he wants, he'll happily keep the player. Not to mention Duchene never asked for a trade while the other two did.

 

[Bordeleau Of Blood]

Extra Extra: Bad GM asking for way too much for his player. News at 10.

Seriously, if every GM is not willing to pay Sakic's price, it means Sakic is asking too much, not that other GM's are being cheap or underrating Duchene.

Yes, a good GM would lower his price on a player he doesn't have to trade to suit the interests of a dozen other GM's.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

It doesn't really make sense to pull the trigger on a trade for Duchene that isn't a home run. The Avalanche have another 2.5 years to dump him off for the typical 1st+B prospect+roster player trade deadline type return. Not to mention, we're approaching a summer where it might be a seller's market with teams who otherwise would have been right at the cap having extra space due to Vegas having to take 44M in the expansion draft.

 

[WhatWhat]

Zibanejad has as much or more value than Duchene.

Neutral fan saying no he does not Duchene > Zibanejad

 

[WesMcCauley]

Duchene definitely has more value than Zib.
NYR have no interest in forwards. We need Shattenkirk and another top 4 RH defensemen. And if someone could take Girardi off our hands that would be great, thanks.

 

[GoldiFox]

Yes, a good GM would lower his price on a player he doesn't have to trade to suit the interests of a dozen other GM's.

If a dozen GMs are calling about one guy then he is publicly on the market. That's not just business as usual.

What your describing is like someone putting a watch up for sale, demanding twice its market value, and then saying "Well you know, I don't even have to sell it!". Uhh, Ok? I guess you should just keep it then.

 

[Hunter368]

Joe is just fishing, start extremely high......hoping some sucker meets the price.

 

[JoemAvs]

Its hilarious how underrated the few good players the Avs have are on hfboards.

Amazing.

People never learn. ROR, Holden and even to a very lesser extend McLeod.

Once they get away from the Avs they get respect. If they are on the dumpsterfire that is the Avs, they don't.

Also works in reverse for guys like Zadorov.

Zibanejad?

Really .

Hilarious.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

Kind of my thinking too. I was expecting more. A high-end D prospect, a high pick and a roster player seems fair, certainly not "ridiculous". But those are the types of trades that happen in the off-season, maybe it's a high price now?

In any case, I don't blame Sakic for starting high (if that is what's perceived as high). He's holding the hammer here.

And at the same time, this could all just be bluster from GMs trying to get Sakic to knock down his ask.

So the GM of the worst team in the league is holding the hammer? Obviously, he doesn't HAVE to do a deal, because the Av's are already in total freefall and it can't get much worse.

If he wants to get a deal done, and he's looking for a very specific return, I just don't see him as "holding the hammer".

He gonna pay the Taylor hall price if he wants a young good defenseman

Don't know if I'd go that far. Hall was moveable based on having McD to carry the freight. I hope I'm wrong, but McK isn't that same type of dynamic offensive force.

The Hall deal made sense because the Oilers were ready to take the next step. I don't see the Av's there even if they make good "hockey deal" for Duchene.

 

[Goldenhands]

This.

huh, no reason to trade Duchene?? Only 2 more years till his contract expires while the Avls are going nowhere during those 2 years anyway, no chance to make the playoffs, the Avls are in total rebuilding mode and the odds Duchene re-sign there seems pretty slim.. Duchene's trade value is pretty good right now but more you wait, less you will get in return.. It would be completely illogical for a rebuilding team like this to not maximise his value and risk to lose him to free agency without getting any young quality assets in return..

 

[Gardner McKay]

Its hilarious how underrated the few good players the Avs have are on hfboards.

Amazing.

People never learn. ROR, Holden and even to a very lesser extend McLeod.

Once they get away from the Avs they get respect. If they are on the dumpsterfire that is the Avs, they don't.

Also works in reverse for guys like Zadorov.

Zibanejad?

Really .

Hilarious.

With all due respect, I can't remember anyone from the Avs fanbase doing anything but trashing Holden. I remember a bunch of "good riddance" posts.

There were maybe two fans who correctly said that if he wasn't used on the top pairing that he wasn't bad.

As a Rangers fan I agree though. Zibanejad is not worth more than Duchene.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

And why does Sakic need to trade Duchene? What did we learn from the Drouin and Trouba saga? If a GM doesn't get what he wants, he'll happily keep the player. Not to mention Duchene never asked for a trade while the other two did.

IMO - the Drouin and Trouba saga's aren't over until they resign with the organization long term. If they leave as UFA's when they are eligible at 26 YO, not sure what that proves as a "win" for the organizations.

 

[Gardner McKay]

IMO - the Drouin and Trouba saga's aren't over until they resign with the organization long term. If they leave as UFA's when they are eligible at 26 YO, not sure what that proves as a "win" for the organizations.

They won't leave as UFA's. They would be traded before they hit UFA status.

 

[JoemAvs]

With all due respect, I can't remember anyone from the Avs fanbase doing anything but trashing Holden. I remember a bunch of "good riddance" posts.

There were maybe two fans who correctly said that if he wasn't used on the top pairing that he wasn't bad.

As a Rangers fan I agree though. Zibanejad is not worth more than Duchene.

He was trash for the Avs. I still have no problem with him getting traded.

But this is my whole point. The Avs are a dumpsterfire that drags down everyone involved. And they have been for a while. Once semi-decent players (Avs usually don't have many of those) get away from the Avs, they usually tend to look better.

Duchene is still one of the very rare bright spots we have. He just turned 26 two weeks ago, has been a staple for Team Canada, only needs a Stanley Cup for the triple gold club and has produced @ PPG rate when the team was good enough to support that.

He is a great guy with no attitude or contract issues whatseover, is a decent #1 C in this league, decent defensively, is up there with the best of them when it comes to pure skill and is one of the three best faceoff men in the league right now.
He certainly has his flaws but he still would be in competition for atleast being the 2nd best forward on many, many teams in this league.


He also is signed to a good contract and has 2 years left AFTER this one.


And yet the offers are hilariously bad.

Same as they were for ROR back then. Duchene is overall probably still a better player than ROR is right now. Atleast it is close enough.

You won't find many Sabres fans liking these offers in here if they were for ROR...

That is all I am saying...

 

[Bender]

So the GM of the worst team in the league is holding the hammer? Obviously, he doesn't HAVE to do a deal, because the Av's are already in total freefall and it can't get much worse.

If he wants to get a deal done, and he's looking for a very specific return, I just don't see him as "holding the hammer".

How is he NOT holding the hammer? He's got interest from a BUNCH of teams and doesn't even need to pull the trigger right now if he doesn't get what he's looking for. He could wait until the draft or even until the summer when teams are evaluating their cap space.

Please explain...because they're in a 'freefall' he has to make a move? Are we finishing WORST than last?? Are we accumulating loses for next year in advance?

It's very simple...Sakic is not accepting a return 'only slightly better than the price we've seen the best rental players get over the years'...that's clearly not happening. So if any GMs are 'chuckling' because the Avs aren't accepting their offers of : a #4 d-man that they are set to lose in the expansion draft + B level prospect + a low 1st round pick...they can go to hell.

That doesn't get it done, not even close.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

They won't leave as UFA's. They would be traded before they hit UFA status.

Even if that's the case - trading that type of player who is coming up on UFA eligibility doesn't always get fair value.

You do have a good point though. If I was a Jets/Bolts fan, I wouldn't be celebetrating those situations as long term positives until the player is locked up as part of the core.

 

[Super Cake]

And why does Sakic need to trade Duchene? What did we learn from the Drouin and Trouba saga? If a GM doesn't get what he wants, he'll happily keep the player. Not to mention Duchene never asked for a trade while the other two did.

There is a difference between those players and Duchene though.

Drouin and Trouba were still rfas.

Duchene is a ufa in 2 years.

If Sakic just keeps Duchene, it will only lower his value and i don't know if Duchene would re-sign with the Avs.

 

[Beukeboom Fan]

How is he NOT holding the hammer? He's got interest from a BUNCH of teams and doesn't even need to pull the trigger right now if he doesn't get what he's looking for. He could wait until the draft or even until the summer when teams are evaluating their cap space.

Please explain...because they're in a 'freefall' he has to make a move? Are we finishing WORST than last?? Are we accumulating loses for next year in advance?

It's very simple...Sakic is not accepting a return 'only slightly better than the price we've seen the best rental players get over the years'...that's clearly not happening. So if any GMs are 'chuckling' because the Avs aren't accepting their offers of : a #4 d-man that they are set to lose in the expansion draft + B level prospect + a low 1st round pick...they can go to hell.

That doesn't get it done, not even close.

And I didn't say that Sakic should give Duchene or Landeskog away, or that he HAD to make a deal. IMO, it would probably be smart to NOT make the deal. But Sakic is the one who started shopping those guys.

My point was that doesn't mean that Sakic holds the hammer in a deal. That's the situation where the other teams HAVE to have what you're selling (Larsson as an example from EDM's perspective). I really like both players, but just don't see either one as a guy who a GM would see as worth mortgaging the future on. And trading what Sakic is currently asking for would be seen as mortgaging the future.

I just think that it's easy as fans to count on signing one of the top 2 UFA's d-men, and count on a lot of young guys, to turn the team around. It doesn't always work like that.

 

[Little Psycho]

It's so great to see at least a couple fans in avalanche fans corner. I think there is a reason for you two both being California team fans. More than one really but most of all I imagine you have actually seen Duchene play games and this becomes evident with your very rational opinions.

Thanks guys, I truly mean it when I say that your posts matter in the face of so much irrational thought, and almost hate fueled Duchene proposal threads.

I haven't watched many Avs games this season, but ever since he stepped into the league he got my attention. He's crafty and speedy- hell, he looked good last night even though he didn't score. Sakic might be asking too much, but so would I. Can't tell you how many times I have left the Trade Boards after seeing ridiculous Toffoli proposals.

 

[danielpalfredsson]

Its hilarious how underrated the few good players the Avs have are on hfboards.

Amazing.

People never learn. ROR, Holden and even to a very lesser extend McLeod.

Once they get away from the Avs they get respect. If they are on the dumpsterfire that is the Avs, they don't.

Also works in reverse for guys like Zadorov.

Zibanejad?

Really .

Hilarious.

This isn't exclusive to the Avalanche, it happens with every team who isn't regularly in the playoffs and doesn't have a massive fan base. The reason? The national audience isn't watching them. The playoffs are where guys make their names with fans of other teams. It took years for a lot of fans to get over the meme that Karlsson is a right winger who doesn't play defense.

The reaction to the O'Reilly trade and to his asking price on his contract was particularly telling. It was interesting to see how the guy was apparently held in extremely high value by GMs around the league, but on HFBoards he was just a "50 point C not worth 7.5M Insert failed MTL prospect that all their fans insert to every trade+2nd+Desharnais and even then I am overpaying"

 

[cgf]

Extra Extra: Bad GM asking for way too much for his player. News at 10.

Seriously, if every GM is not willing to pay Sakic's price, it means Sakic is asking too much, not that other GM's are being cheap or underrating Duchene.

Nobody was paying his price for ROR until the time was right and somebody did. Just because no one has ante'd up yet, doesn't mean they won't closer to the deadline or during hte offseason. Sakic waited for the offer he wanted last time, and he can do so again.

Frankly, if both Duchene and Landeskog get moved in a deal like this, it means Sacic is tearing it down and trying to acquire as many young, high quality assets and futures as possible. I would think picks and near ready prospects would be almost as attractive. Yet I also get the idea that you don't want to ice a total **** show while going through the rebuild.

From the Canes perspective, and this has been mentioned multiple times, we don't want to give up any of our young defenders currently in the NHL. However, hypothetically speaking, if Hanifin was included as part of a deal like this then you're going to get picks (2017 1st, 2018 2nd or something like that) and a forward prospect like Saarela back. There is incredible value in the contract control you'd have over Hanifin and Saarela (5 years and 7 years). There's more risk from the Canes perspective that we lose Duchene in 2 years time to free agency. At least Landy has 4 more years on his deal. Truthfully, I doubt Ron Francis is taking any calls that have Noah Hanifin's name mentioned, much less Jaccob Slavin.

Rebuilds require some sure things as well. MacKinnon and Rantanen are sure things, Zads is a sure thing as a top 4 guy, as is barrie; but Hanifin isn't a sure thing yet as a top pairing guy; and if both of those guys leave the avs must be getting back their sure thing #1dman. He can't move both of them for a bag of beans, even if there's a bunch of beans. There must be a guaranteed core pieces in that bag of beans for both to leave in the same move.

This is why I think trading only one of them for a potential #1 is the more reasonable avenue and the one we'll see.

 

[General Fanager]

And why does Sakic need to trade Duchene? What did we learn from the Drouin and Trouba saga? If a GM doesn't get what he wants, he'll happily keep the player. Not to mention Duchene never asked for a trade while the other two did.

With each passing month, his value is lower. with 2 years left is much different than 1 year to go or as a UFA