Dubas appreciation thread

[Pookie]

This season is going along just fine.

It’s a weird one but we seem to have at least settled the question as to who is the best team in Canada in the regular season.

Expectations should be that we make it out of round 2. Beyond that, who knows.

Dubas has been an underachiever thus far in his GM career.

Let’s hope he finally finds some success.

Anything less than a round 2 win will be failure.

 

[sparxx87]

This reminds me of how much you were pining for Par Lindholm last year

Pining? Nah, I was pointing out the poor logic in that trade, and how it showed a fundamental flaw in philosophy.

That and the Marchment for Malgin deal - not sure where Malgin is but Marchment is playing in the top 9 for coach Q on a very good Panthers team.

 

[4thline]

Sports fandom isn’t all the same. Many just enjoy it in the moment. A championship will make for a greater moment, but compared to missing the playoffs or losing in the first round, winning a few playoff series’ would make for greater moments and far more excitement as a fan.

You’re not talking to the board, you’re talking to people who watch for fun. Winning a series is more fun that losing it, or missing out all together.

That's fair. Of course each spring we'd all rather win one more round. But we're not talking about in the moment, we're talking about a retrospective look at a decade, and the ridiculous notion that being slightly better than terrible makes something good and desirable.

 

[BertCorbeau]

No mistake. People value things differently. The Islanders value Komorov for being a leader and an example for their young players. He’s a hard worker, of high character, and one of the ‘good people’ you have when you surround your organization with good people. They pay a premium to have him in their locker room, on team flights, in the hotel, dinners on the road etc etc.

That’s worth something, even if you’re too ignorant to see it.

I don’t think many people would say Tavares is one of the best 5 players in the game but Dubas paid him as such, and until he’s 34 years old. That’s wayyy too much for my liking, but Dubas has a difference of opinion. Would you call that a mistake?

It is worth something for those intangibles but not nearly what he's actually being paid.

The Leafs have Thornton, Spezza, and Simmonds doing the exact same thing, collectively, for less than what Komarov is being paid and they are making a more positive impact on the ice.

Signing players for inflated contracts primarily for their intangibles is a big cap management flaw.

 

[sparxx87]

That's fair. Of course each spring we'd all rather win one more round. But we're not talking about in the moment, we're talking about a retrospective look at a decade, and the ridiculous notion that being slightly better than terrible makes something good and desirable.

But not just sports fandom but life in genera is about making memories. A few more playoff wins over the past decade would have created fond memories for the fans. That’s why we’re here, isn’t it?

That isn’t celebrating losing. That’s not what he was saying and you know it. You’re one of the best contributors to this site - quit the twisting and misrepresentation bullshit. You’re better than that.

 

[sparxx87]

It is worth something for those intangibles but not nearly what he's actually being paid.

The Leafs have Thornton, Spezza, and Simmonds doing the exact same thing, collectively, for less than what Komarov is being paid and they are making a more positive impact on the ice.

Signing players for inflated contracts primarily for their intangibles is a big cap management flaw.

How did it work out for them?

They continue to exceed expectations so all the fools that want to claim ‘they’re doing it wrong’ only look silly. Well done.

 

[BertCorbeau]

How did it work out for them?

They continue to exceed expectations so all the fools that want to claim ‘they’re doing it wrong’ only look silly. Well done.

.. How did it work out for the Leafs when they had Komarov and a $6 million dollar, intangible guy like Marleau?

Their success doesn't justify signing mediocre players to bloated contracts. The cap era has shown that's not a sustainable way to build a winner.

Besides exceeding expectations only extends so far unless they can actually win the Cup.

 

[sparxx87]

.. How did it work out for the Leafs when they had Komarov and a $6 million dollar, intangible guy like Marleau?

Their success doesn't justify signing mediocre players to bloated contracts. The cap era has shown that's not a sustainable way to build a winner.

Besides exceeding expectations only extends so far unless they can actually win the Cup.

What do the Leafs and Patrick Marleau have to do with Komorov’s value to the Islanders? Are you lost? Their team is structured differently. It might not be sexy but it’s working for them.

 

[Madap]

No mistake. People value things differently. The Islanders value Komorov for being a leader and an example for their young players. He’s a hard worker, of high character, and one of the ‘good people’ you have when you surround your organization with good people. They pay a premium to have him in their locker room, on team flights, in the hotel, dinners on the road etc etc.

That’s worth something, even if you’re too ignorant to see it.

I don’t think many people would say Tavares is one of the best 5 players in the game but Dubas paid him as such, and until he’s 34 years old. That’s wayyy too much for my liking, but Dubas has a difference of opinion. Would you call that a mistake?

Get off your high horse pal. No one is too ignorant to see that having good team members on your team has value. But who are you to say what that value is? Is contributing nothing on the ice while being a good teammate worth komarovs contract?

Lou has won **** all in the past couple years. Islanders look pretty good, sure. But they’ve won nothing, and if they continue to win nothing they will be stuck with no prospects and more bad contracts. Dubas isn’t perfect but he’ll have the leafs competing in the playoffs for a lot longer than the islanders will be.

 

[4thline]

But not just sports fandom but life in genera is about making memories. A few more playoff wins over the past decade would have created fond memories for the fans. That’s why we’re here, isn’t it?

That isn’t celebrating losing. That’s not what he was saying and you know it. You’re one of the best contributors to this site - quit the twisting and misrepresentation bullshit. You’re better than that.

Firstly, thank-you.

Looking back at playing my fond memories are of people and 2 provincial championships. The playoff runs in between are barely remembered disappointments, with bitterness defining the only specifics. And they always including "series wins."

As to the bold, I think it is. I think there's a certain segment of this fanbase whos "good old days" are the 93 Leafs and 99-2003 Leafs, and at their core would be perfectly content with comparable results from comparably constructed rosters rather than hoping for something more. It's a celebration of mediocrity that impacts how they perceive and discuss the today.

I think there's a very grey line on the satisfaction front. Would I be satisfied as a post cap Devils fan? f*** no. Certainly not in retrospect. A post cap Sharks fan? That's tough. IMO they had a cup quality team for more than a decade, and just came up short. Wilson did everything right and was unlucky, and being along for that ride would be fun year after year. But even if Dubas were to duplicate Wilson's performance, perhaps even with another finals performance or two, would you not say that his tenure will have been a failure?

 

[egd27]

This one.

Ah, not really.

What if 4 of the 5 series wins came in one season?

 

[Twine Tickler]

You'd have to think KD will be a candidate for executive of the year at this point. Every addition he has made has been very impactful. Bogo, Brodie, Simmonds, Gally, even jumbo to some degree (Locker room pressance). And if they roll the clock back to the year prior as well with Campbell and Spezz, he has done a spectacular job at rounding out this roster. I am sure there are other candidates that are worthy as well, but KD would have just about as compelling as an argument as any. the only other person that might be more worthy would be maybe Billy G? anyone else?

 

[Menzinger]

.. How did it work out for the Leafs when they had Komarov and a $6 million dollar, intangible guy like Marleau?

Their success doesn't justify signing mediocre players to bloated contracts. The cap era has shown that's not a sustainable way to build a winner.

Besides exceeding expectations only extends so far unless they can actually win the Cup.

It's definitely a wee flaw in the logic that gets thrown around. When a team does well the intangible guys apparently deserve a ton of credit, when the team fails to win it apparently doesn't matter.....

 

[egd27]

Pining? Nah, I was pointing out the poor logic in that trade, and how it showed a fundamental flaw in philosophy.

That and the Marchment for Malgin deal - not sure where Malgin is but Marchment is playing in the top 9 for coach Q on a very good Panthers team.

Denis Malgin is a currently playing for Lausanne HC of the Swiss National League. I understand it's not as good as the NHL.

 

[CantLoseWithMatthews]

Pining? Nah, I was pointing out the poor logic in that trade, and how it showed a fundamental flaw in philosophy.

That and the Marchment for Malgin deal - not sure where Malgin is but Marchment is playing in the top 9 for coach Q on a very good Panthers team.

good point. Anybody would value a contributing player on coach Q's Panthers over a guy who isn't even in the NHL

 

[Teeder Keon]

Denis Malgin is a currently playing for Lausanne HC of the Swiss National League. I understand it's not as good as the NHL.

Would be nice to have Marchment on our 3rd or 4th line

 

[sparxx87]

Get off your high horse pal. No one is too ignorant to see that having good team members on your team has value. But who are you to say what that value is? Is contributing nothing on the ice while being a good teammate worth komarovs contract?

Lou has won **** all in the past couple years. Islanders look pretty good, sure. But they’ve won nothing, and if they continue to win nothing they will be stuck with no prospects and more bad contracts. Dubas isn’t perfect but he’ll have the leafs competing in the playoffs for a lot longer than the islanders will be.

No high horse - go read the exchange. The poster I quoted asked for an explanation as to why a versatile player like that who can play 12 mins a night up and down a lineup with those intangible qualities is worth more than just the average replacement level player. I tried to explain that the Islanders are built differently. They value depth and balance throughout their lineup with players that can star in their role. Komorov does that, on and off the ice. They're willing to pay a premium for these players and they've found success this way. It doesn't matter if people on the internet don't agree on what that premium should be. They're judging their results in the win-loss column, not measuring cap figures against statistical production.

When the team in question consistently performs greater than the sum of its parts, its pretty hard to argue they're doing it wrong.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Lou has won **** all in the past couple years. Islanders look pretty good, sure. But they’ve won nothing, and if they continue to win nothing they will be stuck with no prospects and more bad contracts. Dubas isn’t perfect but he’ll have the leafs competing in the playoffs for a lot longer than the islanders will be.

You're just saying that because he wears glasses.

 

[Madap]

No high horse - go read the exchange. The poster I quoted asked for an explanation as to why a versatile player like that who can play 12 mins a night up and down a lineup with those intangible qualities is worth more than just the average replacement level player. I tried to explain that the Islanders are built differently. They value depth and balance throughout their lineup with players that can star in their role. Komorov does that, on and off the ice. They're willing to pay a premium for these players and they've found success this way. It doesn't matter if people on the internet don't agree on what that premium should be. They're judging their results in the win-loss column, not measuring cap figures against statistical production.

When the team in question consistently performs greater than the sum of its parts, its pretty hard to argue they're doing it wrong.

There's certainly no argument that there can be short term benefits (and I concede that maybe that's all that matters for some teams depending on their philosophy) but it looks like Lou is sacrificing his teams future.

Overall, the value of these signing may turn out to be negative in the long-run. That's totally fine for contenders as we see them do it all the time to try to win the cup, but there's has to be a balance there. No point in sacrificing the future if your chances of winning are slim. Lou signing these bad contracts for the Leafs when we weren't ready was not good. He made it harder for us to win in the future, when we were more ready to, and I think that's what a lot of us Leafs fans give him a hard time about.

The situation with the Islanders is trickier though for sure. I still don't think they have the elite talent to win it all, but they're also far too good to rebuild so I can't blame him too much for going for it.

 

[Madap]

You're just saying that because he wears glasses.

Hahaha probably the opposite. I wear glasses myself - probably why I'm such a big Dubas homer. We're kindred spirits.

 

[sparxx87]

Firstly, thank-you.

Looking back at playing my fond memories are of people and 2 provincial championships. The playoff runs in between are barely remembered disappointments, with bitterness defining the only specifics. And they always including "series wins."

As to the bold, I think it is. I think there's a certain segment of this fanbase whos "good old days" are the 93 Leafs and 99-2003 Leafs, and at their core would be perfectly content with comparable results from comparably constructed rosters rather than hoping for something more. It's a celebration of mediocrity that impacts how they perceive and discuss the today.

I think there's a very grey line on the satisfaction front. Would I be satisfied as a post cap Devils fan? f*** no. Certainly not in retrospect. A post cap Sharks fan? That's tough. IMO they had a cup quality team for more than a decade, and just came up short. Wilson did everything right and was unlucky, and being along for that ride would be fun year after year. But even if Dubas were to duplicate Wilson's performance, perhaps even with another finals performance or two, would you not say that his tenure will have been a failure?

I'm the complete opposite. I remember the losses so much more, and so much more vividly. Winning is always a blur with random flashes of specific moments whereas I can describe in great detail at least a few disappointing losses... but as a fan its completely different for me. I'm not as invested in the outcome because I can't affect it. It's entertainment that becomes more entertaining with success and big moments which most often come in the playoffs.

I guess I don't see it that way. I don't really remember 93 but I know some of the Mats Sundin teams were good. Maybe you're right in that some would be content, but I'd look at it as 'get back to the high-water mark so they can try to climb higher' type of thinking. Teams that win don't come out of nowhere - they show signs in the years before of having potential. To me, thats what most seem to want. Win a round or two and show that they're headed in the right direction.

Wilson? Yeah, pretty disappointing. They were close and couldn't get over the hump in their window... But as a fan, wouldn't you prefer playoff hockey every year for a decade including a cup final vs missing the playoffs or getting beat in the first round? I'd be out of my depths if I start into the pre-cap vs post-cap Devils so I can't really comment on what they were doing at that time. The Devils have never been an appealing team or franchise to me.

 

[zeke]

It's definitely a wee flaw in the logic that gets thrown around. When a team does well the intangible guys apparently deserve a ton of credit, when the team fails to win it apparently doesn't matter.....

It's not their job to score!

 

[NK94]

Not sure who needs to hear this, but anything related to Marchment at this point just reeks of recency bias. He still cannot skate that well.

 

[ACC1224]

You are.


Is this not you, implying that since the Leafs were 100% ass from ~06-15 that we should be "ecstatic" with a period that's only 90% ass and leaves the franchise in a death spiral?



Is this not you, romanticizing "series wins"as if they're something to be celebrated as something more than potential stepping stones to a championship?

I get it now. One of those who picks out one word, takes it literally and then goes off on one.
Knock yourself out.
....and yes I enjoy a series win more than a loss as any normal fan would.

 

[4thline]

I get it now. One of those who picks out one word, takes it literally and then goes off on one.
Knock yourself out.
....and yes I enjoy a series win more than a loss as any normal fan would.

Agree or disagree. If over his first decade as GM (assuming it lasts that long) if Dubas' record consists of 4 playoff misses, 5 series wins, and no cups, you will be happy and consider his decade a success.