Who are you thinking of? Here haven’t been many examples overseas and of the few, there are definitely been some success stories. Josi and Cernak are recent examples that come to mind.
Draft and UDFA Thread 2018-19: Part VIII (No Kakko/Hughes Talk)
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Who are you thinking of? Here haven’t been many examples overseas and of the few, there are definitely been some success stories. Josi and Cernak are recent examples that come to mind.
n8
WAAAAAAA!!!
Barnaby
Registered User
Mcilrath, Oleksiak, Zadorov ... Don't like the comp on Josi, but Cernak fits.
Maybe it's a misconception on my part, but when I hear big defenseman... bit of a project, will take time to mature... I start getting nervous. I think there's often more projection involved.
I feel like the smooth skating slick defensemen is generally the surer thing.
It seems like everyone's been looking for the next Chara for the last 15 years.
When you said smaller leagues I thought you meant non-traditional leagues for development like the German circuit. That’s why I used Josi and Cernak as comparables.
Given the names you mentioned, I’m not sure what you mean. Jones, Lindell, Slavin, Parayko, Pesce, Carlo, Hamilton are all young 6’3”+ defenseman. Every team left in the playoffs has big two-way skating D. Seider is that mold of player. I don’t know why his size would deter you. He’s a fantastic skater.
If it means anything, I have Soderstron higher.
Barnaby
Registered User
I was reading everything I could get prior to the 2004 draft. I was thrilled Olesz fell to us... then we took Montoya. Looking back there wasn't much in that first round beyond AO or Malkin.
apoptygma
2-5-9-11
- Apr 9, 2011
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Also the time-line is so long for this kind of prospects. We all agree that we need a RD that can PK and bring some size. I would rather go BPA and get a more valuable prospect that we in time can trade for what we need. If the BPA is a forward and he delivers, I'm sure we can trade him in the future for a young player in the Kevin Klein/Sauer mold (possible getting more assets aswell).
Not every core piece on a cup contender have to be drafted by ourselves!
It's not a 1 d-man we are trying to find, just a young RD with some size. If we have a stacked cupboard we are able to trade the exess for what we need.
Barnaby
Registered User
NYRFANMANI
Department of Rempe Safety Management
He's not a big tough d-man à la Seidenberg for example ... he's a big two-way D with great puck handling. The kid is all over German hockey this season as a 17 year old, he's not exclusively a crease-clearer.
I guess it goes:
Byram
Broberg
Soderstrom
then it gets closer and closer between York Heinola and Seider.
Amazing Kreiderman
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- Apr 11, 2011
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Yes, I've watched a bunch of MHL games of both Dorofeyev and Podkolzin. The small sample size is not an excuse. He should dominate the MHL, like Dorofeyev did. Podkolzin has been very disappointing at any level except the u20s. Want to talk about small sample size? The games where he played well. Those are a small sample size.
When you only perform at the Hlinka and World Juniors for a total of 10-12 games, and everywhere else you disappoint, the bad games are not a small sample size anymore.
Did you get any grip of why he didn't play well? Was he just ineffective? Was he frustrated? Was he tired? Sucked?
Another problem is, at which place did he play this season that hasn't been small sample size?
All are small sample sizes. He scored a bunch at the Hlinka but also the 4 nations. He moved from Moscow and to St. P this season and played a little in the KHL, a little in the MHL, a little in the VHL, a little for the U20 national team and a little for the U18 team. How was he received as a Moscow kid on that MHL team, did he get pucks to work with etc?I am not giving this kid a pass and your report that he didn't play well in the MHL definitely means more to me than the stats alone. I've also seen first hand how frustrated he got at the WJCs. You know that typical childish frustration where you show up at first and play great, have a little bad luck and starts to bang your stick, then it seems like the kid has the most bad luck in the world and comes to the bench in pain every other shift "crying" because they got hit in the foot by a puck and what not.
I've gone from acknowledging some issues with the kid 'but you can't just pass on the kid no matter how many grey hairs it would give you if you drafted him really high', to thinking that most players in the top 12-13 (rounded off buy guys like Caufield, Boldy, Dach, Newhook and co in most rankings) qualifies for being put toe to toe with this kid.
I was really low on Pavel Zacha his draft year and did cartwheels the second NJD drafted him as high as they did. Because he was/is a typical kid that so often struggles with being effective. His game was way too much based on going wide on Ds with his reach and first step, and that is just so hard in the NHL, the net was like a magnet for him, played with one gear always just going to the net which is so predictable for Ds, never looking up, evaluating the ice in front of him, slow down a bit before making a tempo change at the right time or stuff like that. Pod is much more versatile, much more erratic, has a much better mix of going on the inside/outside, both when challenging Ds but also when distributing the puck.
But in the end I recon its following these types of kids that you can learn from. Mittlestad is another one. Nolan Patrick. What happened to them after 10 years? Did they issue get magnified or blow over? What translated well and what didn't? Stuff like that.
Amazing Kreiderman
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Did you get any grip of why he didn't play well? Was he just ineffective? Was he frustrated? Was he tired? Sucked?
Another problem is, at which place did he play this season that hasn't been small sample size?
I am not giving this kid a pass and your report that he didn't play well in the MHL definitely means more to me than the stats alone. I've also seen first hand how frustrated he got at the WJCs. You know that typical childish frustration where you show up at first and play great, have a little bad luck and starts to bang your stick, then it seems like the kid has the most bad luck in the world and comes to the bench in pain every other shift "crying" because they got hit in the foot by a puck and what not.
I've gone from acknowledging some issues with the kid 'but you can't just pass on the kid no matter how many grey hairs it would give you if you drafted him really high', to thinking that most players in the top 12-13 (rounded off buy guys like Caufield, Boldy, Dach, Newhook and co in most rankings) qualifies for being put toe to toe with this kid.
Podkolzin played great hockey at the Hlinka, the CZ u20 Four Nations and at the World Juniors. That's it. That's all.
When he was in the MHL and VHL he was just "there". He played like Jimmy Vesey. The type of player you only recognize when you focus on his number. The type of player you know is there because he's on the piece of paper in your hand that has the line-up. That's it. I have always considered league play a better indicator than international play because players get to work on chemistry, line combinations etc.
The World Juniors is usually a toss up because it depends on which team works well together in the 3 weeks they are together. There's no familiarity with teammates. Whatever a player does at the World Juniors should be an indicator, but not the sole indicator.
Vasili Podkolzin reminds me of Lauri Tukonen. Played some great hockey at different age groups for the national team, but that was literally the only indicator that he could be a good player.
Want another example of why international play shouldn't be used as justification to draft someone high? Nikita Filatov. Great performance at both u18 and u20s in his draft year, which raised his stock at the draft.
Jordan Schroeder had a great WJC in his draft year. I remember Ranger fans being furious we passed on him to pick Chris Kreider. You never hear Ranger fans giving Gordie Clark credit for that selection do you? Nope. It's all bad. We suck at drafting. We never get the right player bla bla bla
Roti Olesz. Another one who saw his draft stock rise after a strong WJC in his draft year. Another one who turned out to be a bad pick that high
As a prospect, you need to do more than just play some good tournaments for your national team in different age groups. This definitely applies more to European players because NHL scouting is severely lacking in this department. Every year we see the same shit happening. Some Czech, Russian, Finnish or Swedish player has a great WJC and BOOM! Up the rankings they go. It's 2019. There's no excuse anymore for not watching MHL/Jr. A Liiga/SuperElit games. As a journalist, if you get paid to put rankings together (Button etc) you should spend your days watching these games, even on demand. If I can do it, so can they.
Kreiderman- Amen, I agree with all you are saying on those topics. I was really not high on Filatov nor Tukonen (nor Nokelainen). And I was onto them at the time, but I don't see the same reflection in Podkolzins game. Trying to figure out what I am and/or others are missing.
On Fila:
On Tuk and co.:
Pavel Zacha has been mentioned, from April 16':
I really hate it that the old history from our board isn't available. I know that I made more detailed posts on both Tuk and Fila at our site, but the above was what I could find on the main boards, anyone know if it has been deleted or why you can't search it? I had both Tuk and Nok as late 1st's/early 2nd round picks -- and actually liked Koprikoski the most of the three, I remember being called out pretty hard by some for not being on the Tuk train. Its pretty funny that that call after everything turned out to be right.
Its funny to see Fransson's name. I really liked him a lot, but its a good example of how hard it is to read kids. He became a dad at like 18-19, there have been some rumors about him having some issues with his personal life, and his play leveled of after him looking extremely good 1-2 years after his draft. Life isn't easy just because you are great at hockey.
But back to the topic, my point is just that when it comes to these type of players, I am 9/10 times not naive at all. I could certainly be wrong on Podkolzin, but I can only state what I see and I don't quite see the tendencies that would hold him back at the NHL level, which I could with Fila, Tuk and Zacha for example (and obviously more so than the teams drafting these kids). But if he don't pan out, I will really try top look more closely at what I missed, should become clear in the future.
On Fila:
On Tuk and co.:
Pavel Zacha has been mentioned, from April 16':
I really hate it that the old history from our board isn't available. I know that I made more detailed posts on both Tuk and Fila at our site, but the above was what I could find on the main boards, anyone know if it has been deleted or why you can't search it? I had both Tuk and Nok as late 1st's/early 2nd round picks -- and actually liked Koprikoski the most of the three, I remember being called out pretty hard by some for not being on the Tuk train. Its pretty funny that that call after everything turned out to be right.
Its funny to see Fransson's name. I really liked him a lot, but its a good example of how hard it is to read kids. He became a dad at like 18-19, there have been some rumors about him having some issues with his personal life, and his play leveled of after him looking extremely good 1-2 years after his draft. Life isn't easy just because you are great at hockey.
But back to the topic, my point is just that when it comes to these type of players, I am 9/10 times not naive at all. I could certainly be wrong on Podkolzin, but I can only state what I see and I don't quite see the tendencies that would hold him back at the NHL level, which I could with Fila, Tuk and Zacha for example (and obviously more so than the teams drafting these kids). But if he don't pan out, I will really try top look more closely at what I missed, should become clear in the future.
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Savant
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- Oct 3, 2013
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Beecher will be there in the second. Could still be there at 58. I couldn't take Seider at 19-20. If the Dallas pick is one of the last 4, now you are talking.
Dach, Cozens, Zegras, Turcotte, I would make the same trades you are and having the same party. And also invite your mother in law.
Off Sides
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The more clips/ shift by shifts I watch the higher both Tomasino and Dorofeyev go up in my rankings.
Tonights game will literally be the difference in having the chance at a Tomasino/Dorofeyev. Yes one game we the Rangers have zero control of. Crazy but true.
Lion Hound
Pornhub Enthusiast
HA HA! She'd def make it if you invite her!
Beecher is def on the radar of some clubs. He may go in 2nd round but i wont be surprised if he goes 20-30. 6'3 C with wheels, skill and moxy!
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Size, speed, skill and mean streak are tough to find. His floor is to be a fantastic third line center and the potential is there for a very solid two-way 2nd line center who is hell to play against.
I don't know enough about seider to say how warranted the concerns are but this is 100% PTSD from mcilrath & jessiman...we haven't had much lucks with these big projects in the past so the term project definitely raises red flags for me...the other one that makes my skin crawl is 'skates well for a big guy'
that said though the fact that he might take a few years doesn't scare me off, if the other tools are there. we don't need someone that will step in immediately.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
I like Seider, but I don't know if I like him as much at 19 or 20. Ultimately it depends on who's still on the board. My gut tells me that there will be at least a few guys I like better still waiting to be picked.
Edge
Kris King's Ghost
Is there an Esa Lindell type to be had in the second round or even with late first if Dallas wins tonight? A pk machine type with good size Or do we have someone like him in the system already?
NYR Viper
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Fitzy
Very Stable Genius
- Jan 29, 2009
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People have been sleeping on Lindgren and Hajek for slow starts in Hartford, but the eye test still looks like two very likely to be eventual NHL defenders to me.
Obviously Rykov's situation staying in Russia is a little more concerning.
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