Draft and UDFA Thread 2018-19: Part V (Lottery 04/09 8PM EST)

[Ola]

All those links except one are before mid-April

Please read the thread.

I said that it is possible to make calls that differs from the consensus. I said that I made a ranking available before the U18 ended that had Kotkaniemi at 6 while no other ranking I knew of at that time had him top 15. Tobbe jumps in and ridicules me and say that quote “everyone” had him top 15 at that time. And the relevant ranking in this context is of course the last published by everyone, they form the consensus. Right? Do you get what I mean?

And it’s just not true, everyone did not have him top 15 at that time. Checking the sources that makes available rankings, at that time I couldn’t find anyone that had him top 15. Zucc found that Button had him 10th. I had missed that.

One is not everyone. It’s about facts, that then turns into fluid facts and personal attacks and what not. If we can’t agree on facts all other stuff will be very hard. You got to draw the line somewhere.

 

[ManUtdTobbe]

Just lol, i'm done.

What's everyones thoughts on the top NA D-men (below Byram) for this year? Personally i have Harley ahead of York and then the rest.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I really like Lassi Thomson's tool kit.

 

[Ola]

Just lol, i'm done.

What's everyones thoughts on the top NA D-men (below Byram) for this year? Personally i have Harley ahead of York and then the rest.

Make stuff up, make personal attacks, promise links and then run and hide. Twist and turn everything and pretend like something else was discussed other than it was. Why am I not surprised? I thought every ranking forming some sort of consensus published by mid April had Kotkaniemi top 15?

That is just so false.

 

[True Blue]

This is not in any particular order, but think about two things; the Rangers management loves USHL and they did not beef up their WHL scouting for nothing. I am certainly no insider, but logic would then dictate that the likes of Zegras, Boldy, Dach, Byram, Cozens or Turcotte could be the choice with the fist pick with Brink or a Robertson at the tail end of first. Just some food for thought.

 

[FireGerardGallant]

Please read the thread.

I said that it is possible to make calls that differs from the consensus. I said that I made a ranking available before the U18 ended that had Kotkaniemi at 6 while no other ranking I knew of at that time had him top 15. Tobbe jumps in and ridicules me and say that quote “everyone” had him top 15 at that time. And the relevant ranking in this context is of course the last published by everyone, they form the consensus. Right? Do you get what I mean?

And it’s just not true, everyone did not have him top 15 at that time. Checking the sources that makes available rankings, at that time I couldn’t find anyone that had him top 15. Zucc found that Button had him 10th. I had missed that.

One is not everyone. It’s about facts, that then turns into fluid facts and personal attacks and what not. If we can’t agree on facts all other stuff will be very hard. You got to draw the line somewhere.

But you said mid-April, by mid-April Kotaka was in that top 15 range from most. He rose throughout the whole year culminating in the u18.

 

[Ola]

But you said mid-April, by mid-April Kotaka was in that top 15 range from most. He rose throughout the whole year culminating in the u18.

Ehh what? Link? Who had him top 15 in a ranking published before mid April?

McKenzie didn’t have him top 15. Everyone look at McKenzie, it you say every ranking McKenzie can’t be off with 9 spots in the other direction. CS didn’t have him top 15. Google like NHL Draft ranking April/March/February/January. There are few rankings announced in mid April, I’ve not found a single ranking published before mid April with Kotkaniemi in the top 15. Someone else pointed me at Button, I searched for him specifically, only found the January ranking. My bad. All the names tossed around that I could find had him outside the top 15. Was he 12th in Redlines March ranking? It’s behind a paywall.

If you claim that even a fraction of the rankings published by the main outlets before mid April had him top 15 you are either lying or I can’t google to save my life.

Really makes me sick to have to respond to this utter crap. But each to their own.

 

[Off Sides]

My draft scenario, Rangers use their own early pick, then they trade up with the Jets pick plus Kreider to get an earlier pick, and they draft two prospects they think can either be top pair D, or top line forwards.

They add those two to Chytil, Kravtsov, Miller, Lundkvist, Lias, etc and they are that much closer to having one of the best prospect pools in the league.

 

[Ola]

Would prefer to see Kreider traded for a young player. Like Lemieux. That we can offer a bigger role and shot to break out in.

 

[FireGerardGallant]

Ehh what? Link? Who had him top 15 in a ranking published before mid April?

McKenzie didn’t have him top 15. Everyone look at McKenzie, it you say every ranking McKenzie can’t be off with 9 spots in the other direction. CS didn’t have him top 15. Google like NHL Draft ranking April/March/February/January. There are few rankings announced in mid April, I’ve not found a single ranking published before mid April with Kotkaniemi in the top 15. Someone else pointed me at Button, I searched for him specifically, only found the January ranking. My bad. All the names tossed around that I could find had him outside the top 15. Was he 12th in Redlines March ranking? It’s behind a paywall.

If you claim that even a fraction of the rankings published by the main outlets before mid April had him top 15 you are either lying or I can’t google to save my life.

Really makes me sick to have to respond to this utter crap. But each to their own.

Mckeen Hockey (14):
McKeen's 2018 NHL Draft Ranking - April 9th, 2018 - Top 31
Dobber (12):
Cam Robinson’s 2018 NHL Draft Rankings: Top 115 – April 2018
The draft anaylst (12) it says June but those were from April:
NHL Draft prospect rankings: Rasmus Dahlin or Andrei Svechnikov? It's 1A vs. 1B atop 2018 class
Nhl draft central (14):
Canucks army did a consolidated ranking of the media and he was on average 15.7 if you wanna get specific thats 16 but that's just semantics: 2018 NHL Draft: Consolidated Industry Rankings for April 2018
All these people had Kotka in the top 15 and I didn't mention people who have already been mentioned.
Found those all on a simple google search

 

[ManUtdTobbe]

Make stuff up, make personal attacks, promise links and then run and hide. Twist and turn everything and pretend like something else was discussed other than it was. Why am I not surprised? I thought every ranking forming some sort of consensus published by mid April had Kotkaniemi top 15?

That is just so false.

You are delusional. Haven't made anything up, haven't made any personal attacks (unlike you), never promised any links… You are the one twisting and turning Everything.

I said that by mid April Kotkaniemi was in the top 15 of most rankings from what i remember, he was Rising slowly the entire fall (well Before U18s). I told you more then once that i wasn't going to search for proof of this for reasons i told you and that you were welcome to prove me wrong, you didn't and actually others posted links and info that suggests my memory was infact right while you posted rankings from January-March which are completely irrelevant to any statement i made.

 

[Off Sides]

Out of this draft class, if a trade were on the table, and it were Kreider plus the Jets 1st, which prospects would people make that trade for?

I mean I assume most would do so for Hughes, Kakko, yet there are likely a several others, and then a cut off where it's an over-payment.

I do not proclaim to be educated in the pre-draft ranking stuff, yet I think the cutoff is only after something like Newhook, Broberg, Soderstrom who could still be there at like pick 14 or 15.

If Cozen, Dach, Zegras are on the table, Turcotte?

I guess more so than anything I think this draft is important enough and has enough quality in the even early tens/teens where something like that could make sense if a trade were available.

 

[ManUtdTobbe]

Out of this draft class, if a trade were on the table, and it were Kreider plus the Jets 1st, which prospects would people make that trade for?

I mean I assume most would do so for Hughes, Kakko, yet there are likely a several others, and then a cut off where it's an over-payment.

I do not proclaim to be educated in the pre-draft ranking stuff, yet I think the cutoff is only after something like Newhook, Broberg, Soderstrom who could still be there at like pick 14 or 15.

If Cozen, Dach, Zegras are on the table, Turcotte?

I guess more so than anything I think this draft is important enough and has enough quality in the even early tens/teens where something like that could make sense if a trade were available.

Don't think i do that trade for anything under #2 honestly.

 

[Off Sides]

Don't think i do that trade for anything under #2 honestly.

Really?

Is that because there are some prospects with that Jets 1st who are of high ceilings, or because you think Kreider should be worth more?

 

[ManUtdTobbe]

Really?

Is that because there are some prospects with that Jets 1st who are of high ceilings, or because you think Kreider should be worth more?

Because my opinion of this draft is that it's kind of weak after the top 2 and a player like Kreider should fetch more of a sure thing together with a late 1st.

I mean, maybe for 3-5 if you twist my arm.

 

[Off Sides]

Because my opinion of this draft is that it's kind of weak after the top 2 and a player like Kreider should fetch more of a sure thing together with a late 1st.

I mean, maybe for 3-5 if you twist my arm.

That seems like a fair opinion, I guess I'd be expanding that as I'm thinking if they retain Kreider they are getting that standard late 1st plus prospect return next deadline.

And as much as I have no issue with Lemieux and the Jets late first, or similar for Kreider next season, I am thinking that some of these prospects beyond the top 5 or so probably equate to a 2019 late first, a 2020 late first and a Lemieux, or Hajek or a Howden or whoever we want to use as an example of the prospects we've seen attached.

 

[bl02]

My draft scenario, Rangers use their own early pick, then they trade up with the Jets pick plus Kreider to get an earlier pick, and they draft two prospects they think can either be top pair D, or top line forwards.

They add those two to Chytil, Kravtsov, Miller, Lundkvist, Lias, etc and they are that much closer to having one of the best prospect pools in the league.

Whats your definition of early pick? 8-12 range?12-15 range? Let's say the Winnipeg pick is between 25-28.
Would Ranger fans trade a Kreider and 26th overall pick for lets say the Edmonton/Minnesota/Arizona pick at 12ish and select a Caufield/Newhook/Broberg/Kaliyev? I think for Kreider straight up maybe I don't think i would add the mid 20's pick overall as well.

 

[bl02]

Don't think i do that trade for anything under #2 honestly.

I'm a big Kreider fan too but if we got a Cozens/Byram and then a Turcotte/Zegras with our pick that would be pretty amazing along with possibly having another 2 picks later in the first. Then again to get that Cozens/Byram who are we trading with ? The Kings? The Devils? The Wings? doubt that trade happens anyway

 

[Off Sides]

Whats your definition of early pick? 8-12 range?12-15 range? Let's say the Winnipeg pick is between 25-28.
Would Ranger fans trade a Kreider and 26th overall pick for lets say the Edmonton/Minnesota/Arizona pick at 12ish and select a Caufield/Newhook/Broberg/Kaliyev? I think for Kreider straight up maybe I don't think i would add the mid 20's pick overall as well.

Yeah, I don't know where the line is, where it's an over-payment, I just don't think Kreider alone gets them a pick that gets any of those you mentioned.

The sales pitch is a lot better when the team trading the pick is not moving completely out of the 1st round.

The pitch probably even gets better if the Rangers also take back some short term cap hit which that team could use the cap space on a Kreider extension, or something else.

If it were me, and keep in mind I know next to nothing about these prospects other than looking at random ranking and reading some, youtube here and there, I'd probably go the Jets say it's 25-31, plus Kreider, for the players you mentioned, and several others who would generally be ranked higher.

Part of that is me thinking if they are going to rebuild they have to take even more gambles, if they have to overpay, I kind of think they just have to do so given the rarity of the late 1sts and non elite prospects they are going to get back for him working out (at least to top pair, or top line)

 

[bl02]

Yeah, I don't know where the line is, where it's an over-payment, I just don't think Kreider alone gets them a pick that gets any of those you mentioned.

The sales pitch is a lot better when the team trading the pick is not moving completely out of the 1st round.

The pitch probably even gets better if the Rangers also take back some short term cap hit which that team could use the cap space on a Kreider extension, or something else.

If it were me, and keep in mind I know next to nothing about these prospects other than looking at random ranking and reading some, youtube here and there, I'd probably go the Jets say it's 25-31, plus Kreider, for the players you mentioned, and several others who would generally be ranked higher.

Part of that is me thinking if they are going to rebuild they have to take even more gambles, if they have to overpay, I kind of think they just have to do so given the rarity of the late 1sts and non elite prospects they are going to get back for him working out.

How about a Buffalo??? I know they traded one of their 3 first rounders for Montour so they may be hesitant to trade another. Plus the way things are going their first rounder could be very very high but lets say they win some games and it ends up being 9/10 overall would they do it for Kreider? Not sure what their cap situation is plus they have to pay Skinner.

It's debatable whether it was a gamble or not ( I don't think it was) but trading Stepan was the right move. I know Kreider is a different beast than Stepan in so many ways but Gorton would have no issue pulling the trigger i'm sure if trading Kreider brought back another top 10 pick prospect. Like some have mentioned on here I'm just a bit worried getting rid of all of our "vets" who still have some skill left and handing this team over to a bunch of 19,20,21 year olds and Mika essentially.

 

[Off Sides]

How about a Buffalo??? I know they traded one of their 3 first rounders for Montour so they may be hesitant to trade another. Plus the way things are going their first rounder could be very very high but lets say they win some games and it ends up being 9/10 overall would they do it for Kreider? Not sure what their cap situation is plus they have to pay Skinner.

It's debatable whether it was a gamble or not ( I don't think it was) but trading Stepan was the right move. I know Kreider is a different beast than Stepan in so many ways but Gorton would have no issue pulling the trigger i'm sure if trading Kreider brought back another top 10 pick prospect. Like some have mentioned on here I'm just a bit worried getting rid of all of our "vets" who still have some skill left and handing this team over to a bunch of 19,20,21 year olds and Mika essentially.

I would guess, the teams who think they should make or should have made the playoffs, who also did not sell this past deadline.

I think that leaves Florida, Colorado, Dallas, Arizona.

The teams who sold, I'm guessing their intentions were to sell for extra picks where it's less likely they'd be interested in trading back.

More like those teams who feel some pressure to make the playoffs next year, I'm not sure if Edmonton, Vancouver, Buffalo are quite there yet even though they probably should be.

 

[Ola]

You are delusional. Haven't made anything up, haven't made any personal attacks (unlike you), never promised any links… You are the one twisting and turning Everything.

I said that by mid April Kotkaniemi was in the top 15 of most rankings from what i remember, he was Rising slowly the entire fall (well Before U18s). I told you more then once that i wasn't going to search for proof of this for reasons i told you and that you were welcome to prove me wrong, you didn't and actually others posted links and info that suggests my memory was infact right while you posted rankings from January-March which are completely irrelevant to any statement i made.

Ok, so you haven’t said that you were on the phone and would look at it later? Hahaha.

The fact that Kotkaniemi was rising is hardly debatable. It’s not like everyone woke up one morning and decided to move him up for like 26 to 5. You know that you responded to a claim that — no ranking — by mid April had him high, and your response was that quote every ranking had him in the top 15. That is totally incorrect. Innocent? Sure. You remembered wrong. You seem to do that a lot of time, remember things in ways that suits you. However most outlets updates their ranking after the U18. There are few March updates and even fewer early April updates. Many of those didn’t keep track of Kotkaniemies play, and almost all other major outlets had not updated their latest ranking and had Kotkaniemi late.

But instead of admitting that you start to lie, make personal attacks, twist and turn words like we where discussing something else (lol January-March rankings don’t matter???). It’s just very very false Tobbe, disgusting. Then you are surprised when someone get pissed off. I am sorry, I don’t think many are at your level when it comes to these things. I’ve been here for what 15 years and never seen anything like it. Sickening.

 

[ManUtdTobbe]

Ok, so you haven’t said that you were on the phone and would look at it later? Hahaha.

The fact that Kotkaniemi was rising is hardly debatable. It’s not like everyone woke up one morning and decided to move him up for like 26 to 5. You know that you responded to a claim that — no ranking — by mid April had him high, and your response was that quote every ranking had him in the top 15. That is totally incorrect. Innocent? Sure. You remembered wrong. You seem to do that a lot of time, remember things in ways that suits you. However most outlets updates their ranking after the U18. There are few March updates and even fewer early April updates. Many of those didn’t keep track of Kotkaniemies play, and almost all other major outlets had not updated their latest ranking and had Kotkaniemi late.

But instead of admitting that you start to lie, make personal attacks, twist and turn words like we where discussing something else (lol January-March rankings don’t matter???). It’s just very very false Tobbe, disgusting. Then you are surprised when someone get pissed off. I am sorry, I don’t think many are at your level when it comes to these things. I’ve been here for what 15 years and never seen anything like it. Sickening.

Correct, i never said that. I said, and i quote "I'm on my phone so i can't search for stuff, none of your links are from mid april"

No, you are misquoting me, so who's the liar? If you are going to quote me, then actually quote me or don't write anything at all. Did i remember wrong though? You are yet to show me a single shred of evidence that contradicts my statement that he was top 15 pretty much everywhere by mid April.

I haven't lied and you are the one who personally attacked me, so who's the liar again? I'm not twisting words, that's you, i'm actually quoting myself when you're trying to put words in my mouth.

How can January-March rankings matter when i specifically said that he was top 15 by MID APRIL?!

And again with the personal attacks, grow up.

 

[Ola]

How can January-March rankings matter when i specifically said that he was top 15 by MID APRIL.

WE ARE NOT DISCUSSING WHAT PEOPLE THOUGHT IN MID APRIL. We are discussing rankings AVAILABLE in mid April. You responded to a post about rankings AVAILABLE in mid April.

 

[FireGerardGallant]

Ok, so you haven’t said that you were on the phone and would look at it later? Hahaha.

The fact that Kotkaniemi was rising is hardly debatable. It’s not like everyone woke up one morning and decided to move him up for like 26 to 5. You know that you responded to a claim that — no ranking — by mid April had him high, and your response was that quote every ranking had him in the top 15. That is totally incorrect. Innocent? Sure. You remembered wrong. You seem to do that a lot of time, remember things in ways that suits you. However most outlets updates their ranking after the U18. There are few March updates and even fewer early April updates. Many of those didn’t keep track of Kotkaniemies play, and almost all other major outlets had not updated their latest ranking and had Kotkaniemi late.

But instead of admitting that you start to lie, make personal attacks, twist and turn words like we where discussing something else (lol January-March rankings don’t matter???). It’s just very very false Tobbe, disgusting. Then you are surprised when someone get pissed off. I am sorry, I don’t think many are at your level when it comes to these things. I’ve been here for what 15 years and never seen anything like it. Sickening.

A lot of them did and I sent you the proof