Confirmed with Link: Dorion fired. Staios interim GM.

[Big Muddy]

Most of the contract is standardized from what I understand, so really all you're tracking is dollars, dates, bonuses, retention and NTC/NMC lists.

It's not the complexity of the system that's a barrier, it's the will to do it.

Ya, you could create a database with simple query capabilities probably in a few hours.

Based on what has been said in the past, the resistance seems to stem from players & agents not wanting people to see which teams a player has put on his NTC. There's got to be some process that would control how many people have access to the whole dataset, but I haven't thought about this all that much.

 

[Big Muddy]

As a retired computer programmer, totally agree. App would be the way to go. Each player would be a separate record that could include all of his info, not just NTC/NMC. When the player leaves the league or retires, they simply deactivate the record. Security would handle who can enter, modify, delete or access the main record and subsets of that record such as clauses, contracts, etc.

Sure, but how many people would get access to the database on "read only" basis? I think agents & players are worried about info getting leaked out about which teams are on their NTC lists. I'm sure you can restrict access, but I don't know how many agents there are, or how they are governed (if it all) when it comes to privacy of info and whatever. And, admittedly, I haven't really given this very much thought.

 

[Micklebot]

Based on what has been said in the past, the resistance seems to stem from players & agents not wanting people to see which teams a player has put on his NTC. There's got to be some process that would control how many people have access to the whole dataset, but I haven't thought about this all that much.

This part is dirt simple, being able to control view access to fields in a database isn't new, we aren't reinventing the wheel here.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was already an off the shelf product out there that could address the league's needs, it's not like contract management software doesn't exist, and even in the off chance it doesn't, development companies would probably jump at the chance to build a custom solution for the NHL.

I mean, I could probably build something in ms access and I'm 20 years removed from any programing (which is evident by the fact that I said access, which even 20 years ago wasn't exactly the choice du jour).

 

[Big Muddy]

This part is dirt simple, being able to control view access to fields in a database isn't new, we aren't reinventing the wheel here.

I wouldn't be surprised if there was already an off the shelf product out there that could address the league's needs, it's not like contract management software doesn't exist, and even in the off chance it doesn't, development companies would probably jump at the chance to build a custom solution for the NHL.

I mean, I could probably build something in ms access and I'm 20 years removed from any programing (which is evident by the fact that I said access, which even 20 years ago wasn't exactly the choice du jour).

Yes, I know this. My concern is whether the agents or others involved would leak the info. I wasn't worried about the technology aspect.

There's a way of limiting access to just that agent's players, but teams would need access, and also probably presumably admin staff from the teams. Maybe other people as well (I haven't thought about this too deeply). As the circle of people widen, it just seems like the potential for a leak increases which players and agents seem to be concerned about.

There would have to be some procedural & legal constraints involved in addition to just technology to try to prevent information from being leaked you'd think?

 

[Micklebot]

Yes, I know this. My concern is whether the agents would leak the info. I wasn't worried about the technology aspect.

Why would agents that currently have the info leak it with a database set up? You wouldn't be granting view access to all agents, agents would only have access to their clients records, if at all.

Setting up a central database doesn't need to increase access at all. Heck, you could lock it down a step further and remove the agent from the equation for the NTC lists and have the player submit their choice directly through a web portal; log one, chose teams from a drop down list, submit, don't even need to talk to your agent.

 

[Big Muddy]

Why would agents that currently have the info leak it with a database set up? You wouldn't be granting view access to all agents, agents would only have access to their clients records, if at all.

Setting up a central database doesn't need to increase access at all. Heck, you could lock it down a step further and remove the agent from the equation for the NTC lists and have the player submit their choice directly through a web portal; log one, chose teams from a drop down list, submit, don't even need to talk to your agent.

I amended my post because I realized that I hadn't explained the point I was trying to convey very well. Maybe if you reread my post again, it will make more sense?

As far as I know, agents know who their clients/players have listed on their NTCs. I'm assuming they don't know which teams the other agents clients/players have listed on their NTCs. I'm working with that "assumption".

 

[Micklebot]

I amended my post because I realized that I hadn't explained the point I was trying to convey very well. Maybe if you reread my post again, it will make more sense?

As far as I know, agents know who their clients/players have listed on their NTCs. I'm assuming they don't know which teams the other agents clients/players have listed on their NTCs. I'm working with that "assumption".

Not sure how a database changes any of this, access is restricted until it's needed, you can keep it to the same people as currently. The big benefit is you could audit access and track who looked at it if and when something leaks.

 

[Big Muddy]

Not sure how a database changes any of this, access is restricted until it's needed, you can keep it to the same people as currently. The big benefit is you could audit access and track who looked at it if and when something leaks.

Yes, the digital audit trail is an advantage no doubt. But, my assumption is that an agent only knows about NTCs for just his clients only and an agent can't see what other players have on their NTCs. I'm also assuming that a GM, team representative, or another agent needs to get permission from the player's agent (or the player) if they interested in trading for a player on another team that has a NTC as well to get the info they need. In that sense, there is some control if agents know who the other agents are via the current process, and hence, there is some limiting of the amount of the people who can get access. If the circle widens, then there'd have to be some legal & procedural things put into place to ensure that those additional people won't attempt to leak info. It's not insurmountable I suppose. Players and agents seem to have concerns, so they'll want to be satisfied that their concerns will be addressed in order to support a new way of doing things.

 

[Micklebot]

Yes, the digital audit trail is an advantage no doubt. But, my assumption is that an agent only knows about NTCs for just his clients only and an agent can't see what other players have on their NTCs. I'm also assuming that a GM, team representative, or another agent needs to get permission from the player's agent (or the player) if they interested in trading for a player on another team that has a NTC as well to get the info they need. In that sense, there is some control if agents know who the other agents are via the current process there is some limiting of the amount of the people who can get access. If the circle widens, then there'd have to be some legal & procedural things put into place to ensure that those additional people won't attempt to leak info. It's not insurmountable I suppose.

I guess I just don't see how a technology solution to management of these lists necessarily widens the circle of those who have access, if anything, I could see it as a tool to reduce access to the absolute bare minimum.

 

[Big Muddy]

I guess I just don't see how a technology solution to management of these lists necessarily widens the circle of those who have access, if anything, I could see it as a tool to reduce access to the absolute bare minimum.

I'm not entirely sure who does what now with the current procedures. I get the impression is that it's a pretty narrow set of people involved (agents & GMs) and this kind of thing involves direct contact (telephone conversations) between those specific individuals. As soon as you get IT and admin staff from teams involved, the circle starts to widen.

 

[Joeffice]

Sure, but how many people would get access to the database on "read only" basis? I think agents & players are worried about info getting leaked out about which teams are on their NTC lists. I'm sure you can restrict access, but I don't know how many agents there are, or how they are governed (if it all) when it comes to privacy of info and whatever. And, admittedly, I haven't really given this very much thought.

Honestly, should players no trade lists be confidential?

 

[Big Muddy]

Honestly, should players no trade lists be confidential?

That would be up to the players, so I can't answer that question. I have heard (media reports) that the players are concerned about exposing info about teams that have listed on their NTCs.

 

[Joeffice]

That would be up to the players, so I can't answer that question. I have heard (media reports) that the players are concerned about exposing info about teams that have listed on their NTCs.

Oh, I understand why the players themselves are paranoid of this.
Their paranoia of anything new/different/safe/efficient can be farcical.

 

[Micklebot]

I'm not entirely sure who does what now with the current procedures. I get the impression is that it's a pretty narrow set of people involved (agents & GMs) and this kind of thing involves direct contact (telephone conversations) between those specific individuals. As soon as you get IT and admin staff from teams involved, the circle starts to widen.

IT and admin don't really need access though. Think of it like your password to your work computer, IT can reset it, but they don't have view access. It's just information in a database too, but it gets encrypted so that nobody sees it.

Admin can be removed from the equation because you can build things so that the end user is the one who updates it, and provides temporary access.

Whether it's a digital filling system or a filing cabinet in the GMs office, you can restrict access just the same.

 

[Big Muddy]

IT and admin don't really need access though. Think of it like your password to your work computer, IT can reset it, but they don't have view access. It's just information in a database too, but it gets encrypted so that nobody sees it.

Admin can be removed from the equation because you can build things so that the end user is the one who updates it, and provides temporary access.

Whether it's a digital filling system or a filing cabinet in the GMs office, you can restrict access just the same.

If the end users are only the player, the agent of that player, and the GMs, then sure. This assumes that these end users are willing to do this, versus delegating the task to others, even if it's only delegated to someone else on occasion. I understand access & permissions, so that part doesn't need to keep being explained. It's the human (behavioral) element I'm focused on.

 

[GCK]

A central registry of lists is not required, this is a 1 off. If you really need to prevent this it would be simply having the agent and team confirm a list was submitted with time and date, no need to keep the list in the registry.

 

[Micklebot]

If the end users are only the player, the agent of that player, and the GMs, then sure. This assumes that these end users are willing to do this, versus delegating the task to others, if only on occasion. I understand access & permissions, so that part doesn't need to keep being explained. It's the human (behavioral) element I'm focused on.

Why are GMs, agents and players going to be unwilling to do what they essentially already do except on physical paper?

I get a player delegating it entirely to their agent, they likely already do that. An agent being unwilling to submit electronically instead faxing something seems like a pretty weak argument. Some GMs are pretty old an may not be techsavy (looking at you, Lou lameriello... ) So I could see GMs getting admin to do some things, but they likely already do.

The whole widening the circle argument seems like a red herring

 

[Micklebot]

A central registry of lists is not required, this is a 1 off. If you really need to prevent this it would be simply having the agent and team confirm a list was submitted with time and date, no need to keep the list in the registry.

Well, it wasn't prevented, and now two teams want their pound of flesh, the league is embarrassed, and a new owner is wondering how he inherited this mess when the league knew about it 18 months ago and didn't think to let him in on how big a deal it was

We also don't know if this is a one off, it's entirely possible this has happened in the past, but the acquiring team never tried to flip the player to a new team so no fallout came. The lack of having proof this is a 1 off is an issue in and of itself.

Sometimes it's worth improving on the current system, even if you think it's working just fine. This could have all been avoided, along with some other issues like GMs that fail to submit QOs on time, or players forgetting to submit their updated lists, by having a better contract management system in place.

 

[BondraTime]

Well, it wasn't prevented, and now two teams want their pound of flesh, the league is embarrassed, and a new owner is wondering how he inherited this mess when the league knew about it 18 months ago and didn't think to let him in on how big a deal it was

We also don't know if this is a one off, it's entirely possible this has happened in the past, but the acquiring team never tried to flip the player to a new team so no fallout came. The lack of having proof this is a 1 off is an issue in and of itself.

Sometimes it's worth improving on the current system, even if you think it's working just fine. This could have all been avoided, along with some other issues like GMs that fail to submit QOs on time, or players forgetting to submit their updated lists, by having a better contract management system in place.

It’s not on the league to do that, and Andlauer isn’t upset at the league for that.

He’s upset at prior management and the Melnyk ownership who told them about it and assured him it wasn’t a big deal.

 

[IpsoPostFacto]

As a retired computer programmer, totally agree. App would be the way to go. Each player would be a separate record that could include all of his info, not just NTC/NMC. When the player leaves the league or retires, they simply deactivate the record. Security would handle who can enter, modify, delete or access the main record and subsets of that record such as clauses, contracts, etc.

I think there should be in one giant record for all playes. Sure, you have to modify your table definition every time a player is drafted or retires, but think of the advantage of one DB read to get all that info!

I call it the 5 normalish form.

It would be a small issue for the front end developers, but I do back end stuff and don't really care how annoying their life gets.

 

[Big Muddy]

Why are GMs, agents and players going to be unwilling to do what they essentially already do except on physical paper?

I get a player delegating it entirely to their agent, they likely already do that. An agent being unwilling to submit electronically instead faxing something seems like a pretty weak argument. Some GMs are pretty old an may not be techsavy (looking at you, Lou lameriello... ) So I could see GMs getting admin to do some things, but they likely already do.

The whole widening the circle argument seems like a red herring

Using your Lou Lameriello example (there's bound to be others), I'd guess he'd pick up the phone and call the agent of the player (and/or GM) who he's interested in. As long as continued to be the only person involved and he didn't delegate the task to someone else, then I can see this working. I'm not sure if this the case now as I mentioned in a previous post.

But if a GM knows he can delegate the task to someone else so that he can save (his) time, I guess that's what I was thinking of when I said widening the circle. I was just wondering or thinking out loud about how human behaviour might change if the process is automated. Automation is supposed to save time, and if I'm a busy executive (GM, agent) and I can save time by delegating grunt work, it could be pretty tempting to do so.

It's not just GMs and there would be a parallel situation for agents as well. I don't know if automation would increase the amount of delegation or widen the amount of people involved in that environment either.

You are correct and the concern is not relevant if you assume that a tech solution will only involve the (exact) same people as the current (non automated) process does.

 

[IpsoPostFacto]

Honestly, should players no trade lists be confidential?

I don't even think the player should get to choose.

NHL could have BetMGM whip up a slot machine type game for the players. At say 10K per "pull", a 10 team list of NTC teams would display; Don't like the results? Another 10k to play.

 

[aragorn]

Hey, I have a story you might find amusing. I had three tickets on my smart phone for the Det game, a week before the game I had the flu & I was wondering if I can't go to the game how do I transfer the tickets to my two buddies with flip phones? I did end up going to the game, so we went up to the box office & I asked that question given it could happen in future. Not only did the girl at the box office not know what to do or what the answer was neither did her supervisor both young with their smart phones in their hands. They both said on several occassions well you can transfer the tickets & we had to repeat three times they don't have smart phones, they have flip phones which left them bewildered haha. Even if I were to give them my smart phone to take with them they have little experience with them & would not have remembered how to operate it. One time I couldn't get the tickets off my phone & the box office had to print them out for me because they couldn't get the tickets off the phone either.

Part deux - a friend told me that if you go to a game that you can buy paper tickets to future games on game days so when we went to the Detroit game we bought paper tickets for our next game no longer having to deal with the tickets on the phone crap. Again they asked my friend for his smart phone number & he had to repeat a couple of times that he didn't have a smart phone he had a flip phone haha. Another friend of mine who has a smart phone, but also hates the tickets on the phone crap went to the LA game last night, not to go to the game mind you, but to buy paper tickets for the Tampa game & he came all the way from Orleans to do that, haha. There are ways of getting around the tech for those who are not plugged in, but it's complicated. LMOA just repeating this story & remembering the events being played out & how befuddled they were.

P.S - we have RedBlacks season tickets (they suck) so we drive them crazy too, but they give us paper tickets every yr otherwise my friends won't go & they can't afford to lose us.

 

[senswon]

Delete

 

[Senator Stanley]

I know the new gm is supposed to pick their coach--- but surely we'll see a change and an intrim coach if we continue to drop like a stone....right?

I think DJ has more runway than he did before the Dorion firing because Staois/Andlauer want to project stability. Right now, we're dealing with spillover from the Melnyk-Dorion era dysfunction, and I suspect Andlauer really wants to show to the city that that era is over.