Does Marner get Boo’d?

[notbias]

Nylander has 15 goals in his past 29 playoff games.

Marner has 6 goals in his last 32 playoff games.

Yea.. Marner deserves much less than Nylander.

Hyman doubled McDavid's goals this year, how many million more do you think Hyman is worth than McDavid?

 

[Antropovsky]

Hyman doubled McDavid's goals this year, how many million more do you think Hyman is worth than McDavid?

McDavid has 26 goals in his last 53 playoff games.

Of all the players you mentioned, the only one who consistently struggles to score in the playoffs is Marner. He’s the clear outlier

 

[notbias]

Mcdavid has 26 goals in his last 53 playoff games.

The only player who cant score in the playoffs out of the players you listed is Marner. Hes the outlier.

Sample sizes all over the place... I asked you a simple question and you avoided it.

Not surprised.

 

[Darcy Tucker]

Sample sizes all over the place... I asked you a simple question and you avoided it.

Not surprised.

He's brewing up another hot one that would make Simmons blush.

 

[Bust]

Nylander has 15 goals in his past 29 playoff games.

Marner has 6 goals in his last 32 playoff games.

Yea.. Marner deserves much less than Nylander.

Overall I think Nylander is the better player - but I’ve always been high on Nylander. I was there for his NHL debut and first game as a leaf (it was Kapanen’s first game as well!).

A big reason is he’s a legitimate professional on numerous fronts. He may be a bit too hip for the older crowd to understand - but you can tell this kid grew up in NHL locker rooms. Media doesn’t bother him, fans don’t bother him, he’s legit one of the thickest skinned individuals I’ve ever seen. Like could you see Marner hopping on the TTC solo? In no world would that ever happen.

Nylander and Matthews alike are built for TML hockey. Absolute rockstars, the both of them have become. Trust me gents, this team will be much better off running with these 2 studs moving forward.

If the cap wasn’t a thing I’d be all over a Marner extension. Marner @ 11.5+ will be a burden to any team looking to challenge for the cup in a hard cap league.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

11.5 AAV

Who would you rather have Ekblad or Marner?

 

[notbias]

11.5 AAV

Who would you rather have Ekblad or Marner?

Marner, easily.

 

[Antropovsky]

Overall I think Nylander is the better player - but I’ve always been high on Nylander. I was there for his NHL debut and first game as a leaf (it was Kapanen’s first game as well!).

A big reason is he’s a legitimate professional on numerous fronts. He may be a bit too hip for the older crowd to understand - but you can tell this kid grew up in NHL locker rooms. Media doesn’t bother him, fans don’t bother him, he’s legit one of the thickest skinned individuals I’ve ever seen. Like could you see Marner hopping on the TTC solo? In no world would that ever happen.

Nylander and Matthews alike are built for TML hockey. Absolute rockstars, the both of them have become. Trust me gents, this team will be much better off running with these 2 studs moving forward.

If the cap wasn’t a thing I’d be all over a Marner extension. Marner @ 11.5+ will be a burden to any team looking to challenge for the cup in a hard cap league.

Agreed. He took a lot of heat a few years ago and never seemed to notice. People forget that he was constantly compared to his dad back then, and not in a favorable way. Don Cherry even criticized him as a bad draft pick. But he persevered without complaining to the media or showing visible frustration. He struggled after signing his contract and faced criticism for that too.

Nobody made excuses for him. Nobody said, 'Oh, poor Nylander cares too much.'

Interestingly, Marner has pretty much become the player people speculated Nylander would be, a prima donna player driven by money, with a dad who’s a pain to deal with.

 

[Antropovsky]

Sample sizes all over the place... I asked you a simple question and you avoided it.

Not surprised.

Care to explain what you mean? You’re not being very clear. While larger sample sizes are generally better, players also adapt and improve as they age.

Using the last 3-4 seasons for each player is a good sample size, as it provides similar samples for each on their respective teams: Hyman for 3 years, and Marner and Nylander for 4 seasons.

It doesn’t matter how far back you go, Marner’s goal-scoring remains the same. In fact, if I go back more than 4 years, it actually gets worse. He only scored 5 goals in his first 5 postseasons (going two consecutive postseasons without a goal). If I wanted to make him look even worse, I could’ve done so. So I’m unsure what your angle is. Maybe you should explain it in more than a couple of sentences so people can better understand your point?

Here are the goals per game averages, using a larger sample size than the single postseason sample you listed for Hyman:

- Hyman: 0.57 goals per game (30 goals in 53 games)
- McDavid: 0.49 goals per game (26 goals in 53 games)
- Nylander (playoffs): 0.52 goals per game (15 goals in 29 games)
- Marner (playoffs): 0.19 goals per game (6 goals in 32 games)

Notice the incredible outlier? Hint: It’s Marner.

Lonny Bohonos had a point-per-game average in his playoff career. Does that make him better than 95% of NHL players? Hint: He only played one postseason, just like the one sample you cited for Hyman.

Marner has 8 years of poor playoff performances, and it’s well documented. I can show you articles from each year discussing how he hasn’t played well.

 

[notbias]

Care to explain what you mean?

Here are the goals per game averages...with a "bigger sample size" than the one postseason sample size you listed for Hyman.

Hyman: 0.56 goals per game (30 goals in 53 games)
Mcdavid: 0.49 goals per game (26 goals in 53 games)
Nylander (playoffs): 0.52 goals per game (15 goals in 29 games)
Marner (playoffs): 0.19 goals per game (6 goals in 32 games)

Are you seeing the incredible outlier? Hint it's Marner.

So more goals = better player, correct?

Hyman > Nylander > McDavid >> Marner

I don't really agree.

 

[Antropovsky]

So more goals = better player, correct?

Hyman > Nylander > McDavid >> Marner

I don't really agree.

... Are you oversimplifying (see strawman fallacy below) because you're afraid to have a real discussion about Marner? Maybe because you know you don’t have much to back up your argument?

its pretty well known that i have constantly posted endless amount of data on why I think Marner isnt worth his pay..its goes way beyond goal scoring. Ive had numerous conversations with you too.

Now your desregarding it, why? So.... you want me to post for the 1000,000 time, his 7 giveaways that led to goals against. You want me to post the videos of him avoiding hits for the 100,000 time...you want me to post stats showing he is shooting much further from the net in relation to the season than the rest of the core and slot shots too?

You Marner fans... but you dont post aimilar supportive evidence to back up your stance on him. Because clearly you dont know how to.

A straw man fallacy is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone misrepresents an opponent's argument by exaggerating or oversimplifying it, and then attacks that distorted version instead of the original argument. The person using the straw man fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".

Here are some examples of straw man fallacies:

Assault weapons: "Why do you want to take away everyone's guns?"

 

[notbias]

... Are you oversimplifying (see strawman fallacy below) because you're afraid to have a real discussion about Marner? Maybe because you know you don’t have much to back up your argument?

its pretty well known that i have constantly posted endless amount of data on why I think Marner isnt worth his pay..its goes way beyond goal scoring. Ive had numerous conversations with you too.

Now your desregarding it, why? So.... you want me to post for the 1000,000 time, his 7 giveaways that led to goals against. You want me to post the videos of him avoiding hits for the 100,000 time...you want me to post stats showing he is shooting much further from the net in relation to the season than the rest of the core and slot shots too?

You Marner fans... but you dont post aimilar supportive evidence to back up your stance on him. Because clearly you dont know how to.

A straw man fallacy is a logical fallacy that occurs when someone misrepresents an opponent's argument by exaggerating or oversimplifying it, and then attacks that distorted version instead of the original argument. The person using the straw man fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man".

Here are some examples of straw man fallacies:

Assault weapons: "Why do you want to take away everyone's guns?"

Not reading this insane rambling.

Nylander has 15 goals in his past 29 playoff games.

Marner has 6 goals in his last 32 playoff games.

Yea.. Marner deserves much less than Nylander.

Here is how this all started... Am I oversimplifying things?

 

[Antropovsky]

Not reading this insane rambling.



Here is how this all started... Am I oversimplifying things?

Yes... just one large piece to why Nylander has beem better. Im assuming most have seen the rest of my reasons why. Theyve been well documented. I know you have.

or are you implying..you want me to post all Marners 7 playoff giveaways that led to gwgs against vs Nylanders 1?

You want me to post the article showing that in relation to the season, Marner had the largest negative change in slot shots and shot distance than other core leafs?

You want me to post the videos of Nylander fighting through checks protecting the puck, while Marner is falling when touched?

Want me to post screenshots of Edge stats showing Marner is bottom 50% in the entire NHL in speed and shot speed?

Do you want me to show you the video of Nylandertelling his teammate to shut up and play hockey and the subsequent reaction of Marner throwing his glpves like a child? Btw dont take my word for it, Jeff Oneill said the same thing about Marnsr throwing his gloves.

IVe posted all this 100s of times...youve been in those chats... but you need me to do it again? why?

 

[notbias]

Yes... just one large piece to why Nylander has beem better. Im assuming most have seen the rest of my reasons why. Theyve been well documented. I know you have.

or are you implying..you want me to post all Marners 7 playoff giveaways that led to gwgs against vs Nylanders 1?

You want me to post the article showing that in relation to the season, Marner had the largest negative change in slot shots and shot distance than other core leafs?

You want me to post the videos of Nylander fighting through checks protecting the puck, while Marner is falling when touched?

Want me to post screenshots of Edge stats showing Marner is bottom 50% in the entire NHL in speed and shot speed?

Do you want me to show you the video of Nylandertelling his teammate to shut up and play hockey and the subsequent reaction of Marner throwing his glpves like a child? Btw dont take my word for it, Jeff Oneill said the same thing about Marnsr throwing his gloves.

IVe posted all this 100s of times...youve been in those chats... but you need me to do it again? why?

Post the charts of Nylander producing better than Marner and the team winning more when Nylander is on the ice compared to Marner.

That's what I want to see.

 

[Bust]

Care to explain what you mean? You’re not being very clear. While larger sample sizes are generally better, players also adapt and improve as they age.

Using the last 3-4 seasons for each player is a good sample size, as it provides similar samples for each on their respective teams: Hyman for 3 years, and Marner and Nylander for 4 seasons.

It doesn’t matter how far back you go, Marner’s goal-scoring remains the same. In fact, if I go back more than 4 years, it actually gets worse. He only scored 5 goals in his first 5 postseasons (going two consecutive postseasons without a goal). If I wanted to make him look even worse, I could’ve done so. So I’m unsure what your angle is. Maybe you should explain it in more than a couple of sentences so people can better understand your point?

Here are the goals per game averages, using a larger sample size than the single postseason sample you listed for Hyman:

- Hyman: 0.57 goals per game (30 goals in 53 games)
- McDavid: 0.49 goals per game (26 goals in 53 games)
- Nylander (playoffs): 0.52 goals per game (15 goals in 29 games)
- Marner (playoffs): 0.19 goals per game (6 goals in 32 games)

Notice the incredible outlier? Hint: It’s Marner.

Lonny Bohonos had a point-per-game average in his playoff career. Does that make him better than 95% of NHL players? Hint: He only played one postseason, just like the one sample you cited for Hyman.

Marner has 8 years of poor playoff performances, and it’s well documented. I can show you articles from each year discussing how he hasn’t played well.

Good ol Lonny Bohonos.

Quoted by players on both teams for being the best player on the ice that playoff - 9 points in 9 games. Proceeds to play 0 games in the NHL after that series. Odd.

 

[thusk]

McDavid has 26 goals in his last 53 playoff games.

Of all the players you mentioned, the only one who consistently struggles to score in the playoffs is Marner. He’s the clear outlier

Yes... just one large piece to why Nylander has beem better. Im assuming most have seen the rest of my reasons why. Theyve been well documented. I know you have.

or are you implying..you want me to post all Marners 7 playoff giveaways that led to gwgs against vs Nylanders 1?

You want me to post the article showing that in relation to the season, Marner had the largest negative change in slot shots and shot distance than other core leafs?

You want me to post the videos of Nylander fighting through checks protecting the puck, while Marner is falling when touched?

Want me to post screenshots of Edge stats showing Marner is bottom 50% in the entire NHL in speed and shot speed?

Do you want me to show you the video of Nylandertelling his teammate to shut up and play hockey and the subsequent reaction of Marner throwing his glpves like a child? Btw dont take my word for it, Jeff Oneill said the same thing about Marnsr throwing his gloves.

IVe posted all this 100s of times...youve been in those chats... but you need me to do it again? why?

At 5v5 since 2016, 5v5 goal

1-Matthews sure leading at 17
2-Nylander at 10
3-Marner is 3rd at 9
4-Jt/rielly 4th at 7

Last 3 year
1-Matthews 7
2- tavares/Marner/ Rielly 5
5- Nylander 4

For a guy who should be so much dangerous, try to explain me why he unable to score more goal at 5v5?

Pp leafs strategy is all about marner setting play with Matthews, nylander or jt trying to shoot it. So the majority of shoot he got there are pass-shot or a shot for a deflection, so clearly can affect distance shot stats for sure because he didn't shoot to score...

goal for when on the ice
1- rielly 24
2- Marner 20
3- Matthews 18
4- Jt/Nylander 12

goal against when on the ice
1-Nylander 14
2- Tavares 13
3- Matthews 13
4- Rielly 12
5- Marner 11

If Marner giveaway are so awful, tell me why he the guy allowed the less goal but playing the hardest matchup in the core 4

11 goal of difference between both when they are on the ice. So marner get basically 2X what leafs get when nylander is on the ice at 5v5

 

[ACC1224]

Nathan MacKinnon defends Mitch Marner: 'One of the best'

Nathan MacKinnon is sticking up for one of his good friends, Mitch Marner.

www.sportsnet.ca

MacKinnon has taken notice.

"Marner gets a lot of flak in Toronto," he said. "But he's honestly one of the best players in the league. I play with some of the best players in the league, and then I skate with Marns, and he's right up there with anyone. Especially at that camp, there was a lot of good players.

"He stuck out as one of the best."

Apart from being impressed by that ability, MacKinnon can also relate to what the Leafs are going through heading into the new season.

A core that also features Auston Matthews, William Nylander, John Tavares and Morgan Rielly has faced similar questions to the ones posed to the Avalanche following a run of disappointing springs before that group finally broke through and won the Stanley Cup in 2022.

MacKinnon finds himself pulling for the Leafs and Marner whenever Colorado is out of the playoff tournament.

"Definitely feel for them," he said. "I'm always kind of rooting for, not the underdog, (but) usually people with pressure — it's harder to deliver.

"Always rooting for the Leafs a little bit, for sure."

 

[notDatsyuk]

At 5v5 since 2016, 5v5 goal

1-Matthews sure leading at 17
2-Nylander at 10
3-Marner is 3rd at 9
4-Jt/rielly 4th at 7

Last 3 year
1-Matthews 7
2- tavares/Marner/ Rielly 5
5- Nylander 4

For a guy who should be so much dangerous, try to explain me why he unable to score more goal at 5v5?

Very selective sample size!

Last 6 years:
Matthews 12
Nylander 8
JT and Rielly 7
Marner 6

Last 5 years:
Matthews 9
Nylander 7
JT and Rielly 6
Marner 5

Last 4 years:
Matthews 8
Nylander 7
Rielly 6
JT and Marner 5

Last 2 years:
Matthews, Nylander and Rielly 4
JT and Marner 3

Last year:
Nylander 3
Matthews and Marner 1
JT and Rielly 0

So congratulations -- you managed to find the only one of the last six time spans where Nylander wasn't second, tied for first, or first in goals scored.

If you look at several spans instead of cherry picking the one that suits your narrative, and particularly focus on the more recent, you can see that he is the one improving the most.

 

[horner]

At 5v5 since 2016, 5v5 goal

1-Matthews sure leading at 17
2-Nylander at 10
3-Marner is 3rd at 9
4-Jt/rielly 4th at 7

Last 3 year
1-Matthews 7
2- tavares/Marner/ Rielly 5
5- Nylander 4

For a guy who should be so much dangerous, try to explain me why he unable to score more goal at 5v5?

Pp leafs strategy is all about marner setting play with Matthews, nylander or jt trying to shoot it. So the majority of shoot he got there are pass-shot or a shot for a deflection, so clearly can affect distance shot stats for sure because he didn't shoot to score...

goal for when on the ice
1- rielly 24
2- Marner 20
3- Matthews 18
4- Jt/Nylander 12

goal against when on the ice
1-Nylander 14
2- Tavares 13
3- Matthews 13
4- Rielly 12
5- Marner 11

If Marner giveaway are so awful, tell me why he the guy allowed the less goal but playing the hardest matchup in the core 4

11 goal of difference between both when they are on the ice. So marner get basically 2X what leafs get when nylander is on the ice at 5v5

I think for all our players it's when the giveaways happen the playoffs.
In the playoffs the teams are waiting for you to screw up then it goes the other way on a 2 on 1.
Berube will teach the that the regular season is where you get ready for the playoffs.

 

[Punch Drunk Loov]

I don't know how anyone could watch an injured Nylander playing half a series and outproducing Marner and still wonder which player is superior.

Marner is a better player than Ekblad though lol.

 

[Apex Predator]

Nathan MacKinnon defends Mitch Marner: 'One of the best'

Nathan MacKinnon is sticking up for one of his good friends, Mitch Marner.

www.sportsnet.ca

Mitch Marner approves this message

 

[Antropovsky]

At 5v5 since 2016, 5v5 goal

1-Matthews sure leading at 17
2-Nylander at 10
3-Marner is 3rd at 9
4-Jt/rielly 4th at 7

Last 3 year
1-Matthews 7
2- tavares/Marner/ Rielly 5
5- Nylander 4

For a guy who should be so much dangerous, try to explain me why he unable to score more goal at 5v5?

Pp leafs strategy is all about marner setting play with Matthews, nylander or jt trying to shoot it. So the majority of shoot he got there are pass-shot or a shot for a deflection, so clearly can affect distance shot stats for sure because he didn't shoot to score...

goal for when on the ice
1- rielly 24
2- Marner 20
3- Matthews 18
4- Jt/Nylander 12

goal against when on the ice
1-Nylander 14
2- Tavares 13
3- Matthews 13
4- Rielly 12
5- Marner 11

If Marner giveaway are so awful, tell me why he the guy allowed the less goal but playing the hardest matchup in the core 4

11 goal of difference between both when they are on the ice. So marner get basically 2X what leafs get when nylander is on the ice at 5v5

This is a much deeper discussion that Im happy to have.

Ill make it short for now. Glad to expand as necessary.

Marner and Nylander since 2017-2018:

Contracts - Marners contract is worth 56% more than Nylanders.

Playoffs
Marner 5v5 with:
Matthews: 439 mins
Tavares: 237 mins

Nylander 5v5 with:
Matthews: 186 mins
Tavares: 235 mins

#of pointless 5v5 games in playoff career:
Nylander 33/54 = 61%
Marner 35/57 = 61%

# of 5v5 points in last 3 games of playoff series since 2018-2019:
Nylander: 9/21
Marner: 7/21

- Marner made 56% more money than Nylander for 5 years
- Marner played 253 more mins with Matthews (136%) 5v5 mins
- Marner has played 255 mins mins more with Tavares/Matthews than Nylander.

Id expect Marner be more offensive and better defensively than Nylander, hes been paid more than 50% more and has played 255 more mins with Matthews and 257 more mins with Tavares/Matthews than Nylander.

Key is linemates, Marner with 255 more mins with Matthews and 257 more 5v5 mins with Matthews/Tavares is incredible.

both players havent been phenomenal in the playoffs (ive said this many times in the past) but at 56% less money and without the 6 blatant screw ups in critical games that led to gwg against and considering Marner had played 136% more with Matthews....

Nylander is the easy choice for me.

 

[Antropovsky]

Nathan MacKinnon defends Mitch Marner: 'One of the best'

Nathan MacKinnon is sticking up for one of his good friends, Mitch Marner.

www.sportsnet.ca

Yup..certainly would expect Mackinnon to say he's overrated, especially after letting Marner join them training.

Are you aware (who am I kidding..you arent) that polls are typically anonymous to encourage honest and uninfluenced responses? This is because when people know their answers aren't tied to their identity, they're more likely to share their true opinions without fear of judgment or repercussions. This leads to more accurate data and better insights.

Also just curious... how physical were the on ice sessions?

 

[francis246]

Yup..certainly would expect Mackinnon to say he's overrated, especially after letting Marner join them training.

Are you aware (who am I kidding..you arent) that polls are typically anonymous to encourage honest and uninfluenced responses? This is because when people know their answers aren't tied to their identity, they're more likely to share their true opinions without fear of judgment or repercussions. This leads to more accurate data and better insights.

Also just curious... how physical were the on ice sessions?

The Crosby/MacKinnon pre season skates are intense as hell and it’s invitation only. The only invite guys they feel can keep up with that level of intensity. It’s not a leisure skate by any means.

The public perception of Marner isn’t ever going to be same as the players. They absolutely love the guy. The public doesn’t get to spend all day with Marner so the public can only go off what they see on TV. I think most players do agree Marner gets more shit than is deserved in Toronto but that’s what comes with the salary cap. But he’s a hell of a talent, everyone can see that, so can his peers. He’s just a little overpaid. But so is Willy and Auston.

Not sure why you and others feel like other players around the league need to lie for Marner or something lmao. There isn’t any incentive for them to speak out and defend him. They like him and think he’s a good player, that’s all that matters. If you don’t, you don’t. But to think there’s a secret agenda for Marner is outrageous.

 

[Bust]

The Crosby/MacKinnon pre season skates are intense as hell and it’s invitation only. The only invite guys they feel can keep up with that level of intensity. It’s not a leisure skate by any means.

The public perception of Marner isn’t ever going to be same as the players. They absolutely love the guy. The public doesn’t get to spend all day with Marner so the public can only go off what they see on TV. I think most players do agree Marner gets more shit than is deserved in Toronto but that’s what comes with the salary cap. But he’s a hell of a talent, everyone can see that, so can his peers. He’s just a little overpaid. But so is Willy and Auston.

Not sure why you and others feel like other players around the league need to lie for Marner or something lmao. There isn’t any incentive for them to speak out and defend him. They like him and think he’s a good player, that’s all that matters. If you don’t, you don’t. But to think there’s a secret agenda for Marner is outrageous.

I think the contract cap percentage/contract demands are what people like Antropovski and myself take issue with - it leads into deep dives into a number of areas.

I don’t think you see this level of digging if this wasn’t a hard cap league.

Marner is a talented, insanely skilled player. But when there’s only so much cash to go around, everything needs to be taken into consideration.

Mackinnon and Crosbys off season skates are great, and I wouldn’t expect them (Mack) to say anything less regarding Marner. However, when it comes to cap allocation and team composition - that’s when you can look at Marner and what he has brought to the leafs as a luxury vs a “keep at all costs” commodity.

When it has really mattered here he has come up short, it’s not debatable. And of the 3 star fwd’s on this team - he is the one without a (long term) contract. He negotiated the 6 year deal, and if he truly wants to be a part of this group, his last contact negotiation looks to be biting him in the ass.