Does Marner get Boo’d?

[Darcy Tucker]

Kucherov has 0 points in game 7, at least Marner is mentally tougher than him... right?

Like are these guys going to start selling us that Point is better than Kucherov now because of this cherry picked sample size. Kuch is a top 5 player in any situation in any series.

 

[francis246]

Kucherov has 0 points in game 7, at least Marner is mentally tougher than him... right?

Does Kuch really have 0 points in game 7’s? Honest question, was not aware of that

 

[Gallagbi]

I haven't seen him struggle more than others in key moments. He's not perfect, he has bad games, and he makes mistakes like anybody else, but these moments only stand out because a select few have spent 8 years microanalyzing Marner and building a collection that they repost in every thread to misrepresent what happened and who is to blame.

Puck over glass penalties suck, but they happen. It's only notable because it happened after a bench penalty (which can only happen to Marner since he's the only one of the core 4 trusted on the PK) and they scored. But Keefe made the bad call for the other penalty. The PKers and goalie allowed the goal. And if we're so worried about penalties, why are we going after our best net penalty player through this era and not the 46 players that averaged more penalties taken?

Some of these things aren't even Marner's fault, and we need Hall of Famers to teach people hockey. "“The game-winning goal, Pastrnak's goal, they're blaming him and it's like, if anybody knows anything about hockey, they were in a neutral zone regroup. So F1 changed and he jumped over for F1, Pastrnak's not his responsibility at all,” Oates argued."

Sometimes he does make mistakes, or a play isn't executed perfectly for whatever reason, and it directly or indirectly contributes to a goal, but that happens all the time, and if somebody is contributing 15% to a goal against, they shouldn't get 100% of the blame. If we're so worried about defensive miscues, why are we going after one of our best defensive players who rarely gets goals scored against them, instead of the many worse defensive players who bleed goals against?

Because it's not actually about any of that stuff. It's just about finding any way to blame Marner. And it blocks any actual productive discussion about Marner, ways he could improve, or ways we could improve with him.

I mean, that's not true. Some people just like to equate production levels and play quality. As for the weird plummeting IPP in that specific sample, I don't know whether it is random variance in a tiny sample of low scoring series or there's an underlying reason it distributed like that, but the reason is not what many here are pretending, or something worth throwing away a top tier player over.

If you haven't noticed the additional struggles I'd say you're not paying enough attention.

This isn't a singular argument, where are the comparable Matthews situations in these spots. Tavares? Nylander?

I think your focus is too all or nothing. He isn't alone in blame on the GWG for Game 7, but his role is to make Pasta's route longer. That slows the forecheck and stops the play. Its not Marners "man" but he missed his role in that play and it's critical. Sammy could poke, but that doesn't eliminate the Marner mistake.

To your over the glass comment, your right he was one option on the PK and he's the one who made that mistake. Then he's the one who turned it over at the Blueline for a key goal at a critical time in Game 7.

And there's more, but I can't think of Matthews, Nylander or Tavares making those key mistakes. Let alone with that frequency. Then stack on the lack of production.

So why is that happening?

 

[57 Years No Cup]

If you haven't noticed the additional struggles I'd say you're not paying enough attention.

This isn't a singular argument, where are the comparable Matthews situations in these spots. Tavares? Nylander?

I think your focus is too all or nothing. He isn't alone in blame on the GWG for Game 7, but his role is to make Pasta's route longer. That slows the forecheck and stops the play. Its not Marners "man" but he missed his role in that play and it's critical. Sammy could poke, but that doesn't eliminate the Marner mistake.

To your over the glass comment, your right he was one option on the PK and he's the one who made that mistake. Then he's the one who turned it over at the Blueline for a key goal at a critical time in Game 7.

And there's more, but I can't think of Matthews, Nylander or Tavares making those key mistakes. Let alone with that frequency. Then stack on the lack of production.

So why is that happening?

Because Marner's playoff juice ain't worth the squeeze.

 

[Darcy Tucker]

Because Marner's playoff juice ain't worth the squeeze.

As a young star under the Dubas / Keefe regime. The 2nd half of his legacy is yet to be defined.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

As a young star under the Dubas / Keefe regime. The 2nd half of his legacy is yet to be defined.

You wanna "define" that legacy for $12+ million per year?

Like I said, that juice ain't worth the squeeze.

 

[Hellcat]

I think your focus is too all or nothing. He isn't alone in blame on the GWG for Game 7, but his role is to make Pasta's route longer. That slows the forecheck and stops the play. Its not Marners "man" but he missed his role in that play and it's critical. Sammy could poke, but that doesn't eliminate the Marner mistake.

This is how I see that play too, it was everyone on the ice that failed, at least 3 players failed to do the right thing.

You wanna "define" that legacy for $12+ million per year?

Like I said, that juice ain't worth the squeeze.

$12.56m x 8 to be precise.

 

[francis246]

You wanna "define" that legacy for $12+ million per year?

Like I said, that juice ain't worth the squeeze.

Even as a fan of Marner I don’t see an initial extension happening. I think they will let him go to UFA and explore what his value is. Very similar to what Tampa did with Stamkos. Maybe he comes back but I could also see a team like Chicago going heavy after Marner.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

This is how I see that play too, it was everyone on the ice that failed, at least 3 players failed to do the right thing.



$12.56m x 8 to be precise.

Boring.

Even as a fan of Marner I don’t see an initial extension happening. I think they will let him go to UFA and explore what his value is. Very similar to what Tampa did with Stamkos. Maybe he comes back but I could also see a team like Chicago going heavy after Marner.

Very reasonable Francis.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

If you haven't noticed the additional struggles I'd say you're not paying enough attention.

This isn't a singular argument, where are the comparable Matthews situations in these spots. Tavares? Nylander?

I think your focus is too all or nothing. He isn't alone in blame on the GWG for Game 7, but his role is to make Pasta's route longer. That slows the forecheck and stops the play. Its not Marners "man" but he missed his role in that play and it's critical. Sammy could poke, but that doesn't eliminate the Marner mistake.

To your over the glass comment, your right he was one option on the PK and he's the one who made that mistake. Then he's the one who turned it over at the Blueline for a key goal at a critical time in Game 7.

And there's more, but I can't think of Matthews, Nylander or Tavares making those key mistakes. Let alone with that frequency. Then stack on the lack of production.

So why is that happening?

Bad luck, insignificant sample size, injury, Lou/signing bonuses, Babcock.

Dekes has been making the same excuses year after year.

 

[notbias]

Does Kuch really have 0 points in game 7’s? Honest question, was not aware of that

Last I checked I think it was 0 points in 6 games

 

[Dekes For Days]

If you haven't noticed the additional struggles I'd say you're not paying enough attention.
This isn't a singular argument, where are the comparable Matthews situations in these spots. Tavares? Nylander?
I think your focus is too all or nothing. He isn't alone in blame on the GWG for Game 7, but his role is to make Pasta's route longer. That slows the forecheck and stops the play. Its not Marners "man" but he missed his role in that play and it's critical. Sammy could poke, but that doesn't eliminate the Marner mistake.
To your over the glass comment, your right he was one option on the PK and he's the one who made that mistake. Then he's the one who turned it over at the Blueline for a key goal at a critical time in Game 7.

If you think these are unique things, then I'd say you're paying too much attention to Marner and not enough attention to everybody else. There's going to be more opportunities for "moments" as a puck carrier and playmaker who plays in every situation and the toughest moments and matchups, but just because Marner is the only one getting microanalyzed, it doesn't mean he's the only one making mistakes. Pretty wild that all these players supposedly make no defensive miscues, and yet end up with worse defensive metrics and more goals against than the guy who supposedly makes all of them, eh?

I'm not the one with an all or nothing focus. That would be people putting all of the blame on Marner for these moments that range from partially his fault to not his fault at all. Make Pasta's route longer? Pastrnak skates across the majority of the ice already. Nylander literally misses him completely (just like everybody else) and then controller disconnects as he scores, and we're blaming the player who just came on and is skating back, when it's not even his man? Just goes to show how blind people are to other's mistakes, despite the microscope being put on Marner.

As for the turnover, Marner steals a puck in the neutral zone, skates into the most open ice, and has the puck poked off at the offensive blueline half a second later, and somehow he's blamed for a 1 on 2 floater from distance going in at the other end of the ice? Not Campbell letting in a horrific goal. Not Rielly pinching. Not Bogosian failing to move up on the attacking player. Not Hyman coasting back. Not Matthews deflecting the stick instead of the puck. We only focus on Marner, who hustled back and gave Matthews a push.

 

[Gallagbi]

If you think these are unique things, then I'd say you're paying too much attention to Marner and not enough attention to everybody else. There's going to be more opportunities for "moments" as a puck carrier and playmaker who plays in every situation and the toughest moments and matchups, but just because Marner is the only one getting microanalyzed, it doesn't mean he's the only one making mistakes. Pretty wild that all these players supposedly make no defensive miscues, and yet end up with worse defensive metrics and more goals against than the guy who supposedly makes all of them, eh?

I'm not the one with an all or nothing focus. That would be people putting all of the blame on Marner for these moments that range from partially his fault to not his fault at all. Make Pasta's route longer? Pastrnak skates across the majority of the ice already. Nylander literally misses him completely (just like everybody else) and then controller disconnects as he scores, and we're blaming the player who just came on and is skating back, when it's not even his man? Just goes to show how blind people are to other's mistakes, despite the microscope being put on Marner.

As for the turnover, Marner steals a puck in the neutral zone, skates into the most open ice, and has the puck poked off at the offensive blueline half a second later, and somehow he's blamed for a 1 on 2 floater from distance going in? Not Campbell letting in a horrific goal. Not Rielly pinching. Not Bogosian failing to move up on the attacking player. Not Hyman coasting back. Not Matthews deflecting the stick instead of the puck. We only focus on Marner, who hustled back and gave Matthews a push.

As I asked, where are the similar miscues for the other core players?

We know the production is lower. I see more defensive mistakes at critical moments causing key GA. I don't see the others. Where are they?

On the pasta goal you want wing to slow the forecheck, center to gap up and Mo to retrieve. Pasta has too much speed, Mo is flat footed. Willy seems fine in all honesty, body language sucks, but he keeps his man infront until the chance.

 

[Dekes For Days]

As I asked, where are the similar miscues for the other core players?

As I said, just because Marner is the only one getting microanalyzed - with people scouring the internet for 8 years to exaggerate every single perceived mistake - it doesn't mean he's the only one making mistakes. I don't have a collection for every player bookmarked and ready to go, because microanalyzing individual plays like this is stupid. It's a way to cherry pick and craft a narrative while ignoring the bigger picture.

But even within responding to your Marner play criticisms, I noted worse miscues for Nylander and Rielly. Actually, playoff warrior Rielly had a miscue in both. Marner also gets blamed constantly for the OT goal against Tampa, but if Marner was the one falling down at center ice instead of Matthews, we know that would be the focus, and not the simple neutral zone flip done 50 times a game. If you'd like more, I recommend rewatching past goals against to focus on others, and you'll find plenty from these players that are worse defensively and allow more goals against.

 

[Gallagbi]

As I said, just because Marner is the only one getting microanalyzed - with people scouring the internet for 8 years to exaggerate every single perceived mistake - it doesn't mean he's the only one making mistakes. I don't have a collection for every player bookmarked and ready to go, because microanalyzing individual plays like this is stupid. It's a way to cherry pick and craft a narrative while ignoring the bigger picture.

But even within responding to your Marner play criticisms, I noted worse miscues for Nylander and Rielly. Actually, playoff warrior Rielly had a miscue in both. Marner also gets blamed constantly for the OT goal against Tampa, but if Marner was the one falling down at center ice instead of Matthews, we know that would be the focus, and not the simple neutral zone flip done 50 times a game. If you'd like more, I recommend rewatching past goals against to focus on others, and you'll find plenty from these players that are worse defensively and allow more goals against.

Willys spot is to watch middle infront, he locks his man infront. So optically bad, practically fine.

What do you think Mo's role is as soft side D?

And you're right, Matthews took heat on the TB OT Game 6 winner. Until you realize the turnover was Marners and zone entry and chance occurs off Marners inability to close off the boards and take the right route (maybe a theme?)

Sadly I've gone back to watch these disasters many times. Marners the one who sticks out consistently. In the eye test, in the replays and in the stats for these key moments

Edit to add: We should be able to find examples of Marner, Mo (should have noted earlier), Willy and Tavares messing up in key moments. Core players play big minutes in big games. I'm scrambling to come up with much for the rest. Matty falling at center while Marner makes to miscues on the same play one significantly more egregious? Mo being mispositioned on a set play from the other team they didn't use all series created by Marner not taking the lane in the neutral zone? We should see even examples, but it looks like Marners got more than the others combined. Its similar on the production issue, they all need to score more...Marners significantly behind

 

[francis246]

Willys spot is to watch middle infront, he locks his man infront. So optically bad, practically fine.

What do you think Mo's role is as soft side D?

And you're right, Matthews took heat on the TB OT Game 6 winner. Until you realize the turnover was Marners and zone entry and chance occurs off Marners inability to close off the boards and take the right route (maybe a theme?)

Sadly I've gone back to watch these disasters many times. Marners the one who sticks out consistently. In the eye test, in the replays and in the stats for these key moments

Edit to add: We should be able to find examples of Marner, Mo (should have noted earlier), Willy and Tavares messing up in key moments. Core players play big minutes in big games. I'm scrambling to come up with much for the rest. Matty falling at center while Marner makes to miscues on the same play one significantly more egregious? Mo being mispositioned on a set play from the other team they didn't use all series created by Marner not taking the lane in the neutral zone? We should see even examples, but it looks like Marners got more than the others combined. Its similar on the production issue, they all need to score more...Marners significantly behind

Why is Matthews not getting more heat for the Florida series? He was ABYSMAL. Did not register a goal in that series, had some costly turnovers as well, playing footsy at the blue line. That was Matthews worst series in a leafs uniform.

 

[Racer88]

Why is Matthews not getting more heat for the Florida series? He was ABYSMAL. Did not register a goal in that series, had some costly turnovers as well, playing footsy at the blue line. That was Matthews worst series in a leafs uniform.

Basically Marner and Tavares are now the only 2 they have any control over even if it means letting them walk after next year. The second is because of Marners god awful press conferences. They shoukd never let him near a mic ever again. He comes across entitled and nothing is ever his fault.
Not saying the second one is a sensible reason but it’s one none the less

 

[Gallagbi]

Why is Matthews not getting more heat for the Florida series? He was ABYSMAL. Did not register a goal in that series, had some costly turnovers as well, playing footsy at the blue line. That was Matthews worst series in a leafs uniform.

He did after the series. But scoring some key goals in the first win in so long buys some good will. Just like setting up our only goal in game 7 this year coming back to the lineup does.

Marner doesn't take heat because of a playoff series. He faces criticism because he's consistently faded as the series goes on.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Willys spot is to watch middle infront, he locks his man infront. So optically bad, practically fine.
What do you think Mo's role is as soft side D?
And you're right, Matthews took heat on the TB OT Game 6 winner. Until you realize the turnover was Marners and zone entry and chance occurs off Marners inability to close off the boards and take the right route (maybe a theme?)
Sadly I've gone back to watch these disasters many times. Marners the one who sticks out consistently. In the eye test, in the replays and in the stats for these key moments

Practically fine but optically bad is like the tagline for most of these Marner criticisms, so that's ironic.
Nylander's job is not to stand in the defensive zone and completely miss the only attacking player and goal-scorer, as the closest defensively-set forward, and then disconnect his controller when he does notice.
Rielly's job is not to stand in the defensive zone and completely miss the only attacking player and goal-scorer, as the closest defenseman, and then fail to disrupt the shot.
Rielly's job is not to be first into the offensive zone, double back into the offensive zone when we've never actually gained the zone, and then be 4th man back on a goal against.
Matthews' job is not to fall down in center ice and fail to pick up the puck flipped to him.

Besides, you blame Marner for doing his job and his role when things don't work out perfectly, so why not everybody else?

The flip to neutral ice happens dozens of times a game on both sides. It's a common play, that only became a turnover because Matthews fell. The zone entry happens regardless, and while Marner isn't quite able to squeeze off an attacking player with way more momentum that shifts to the side at the last second and whips the stick out of his hands, there's a heck of a lot more to the eventual goal than a slowed down player wide on the boards in a 3v3 situation.

This "individual play" argument is just a way to cherry pick and craft a misleading narrative while ignoring the bigger picture.
But since it's so important to you, let's quickly look through the 2022 Tampa series.

In game 2, Matthews gives up the puck at the offensive blueline, and Tampa gets an odd man rush and scores the GWG. Nylander watches the goal scorer skate past him.
In game 4, Tavares fails his opportunity to cut off the player coming down the boards, and then fails to get in the way to block the shot, and they score.
In game 4, Rielly pushes up to center ice at a bad time, and lets a player get past him for an odd man rush and they score.
In game 4, Nylander fumbles the puck at the offensive blueline, and they get the puck and score.
In game 4, Tavares loses the puck in his feet in the offensive zone, and they grab the puck and score.
In game 6, Matthews scrums with a player mid-play instead of getting the puck right next to him. Tampa picks up the puck and Marner intercepts and passes it back to Matthews, which he also misses, and they score.
In game 7, on the series-winning goal right after Marner sets up a great chance, the puck comes back, and when it is in contention at our defensive blueline, Matthews turns up the ice for offense instead of getting back, and they score.

And that's just quickly looking at the things that happen within 5-10 seconds of a goal in one series, not 8 years of scouring every second of play for a perceived mistake.

Oh wait, we get to count basic penalties too!
Well Nylander took a tripping penalty in game 2.
Tavares took a hooking penalty in game 4.
Nylander took a holding penalty in game 5.
Rielly took a tripping penalty in game 6.

Get the tar and feathers ready! Before you notice that these kinds of things happen to every single player in the league. Hockey is a game of mistakes.

Marner is our best playoff producer, and yet you criticize his production because you've picked out some arbitrary games where Marner contributes to just as many goals as other core 4 members, but doesn't get rewarded for them with points to the same extent.

Marner is one of our best defensive players, who gets great defensive results and allows few goals against, and yet you criticize his defensive play because you've uniquely targeted him for every time a goal is scored while he's on the ice, while dismissing the same from everybody else, and the contributions from other linemates.

Marner is our best net penalty player through this era, and averages taking the 47th most penalties, and yet you criticize a fluke puck over glass penalty from years ago, while dismissing penalties from everybody else.

You never actually answered - If we're so worried about penalties, why are we going after our best net penalty player through this era and not the 46 players that averaged more penalties taken? If we're so worried about defensive miscues, why are we going after one of our best defensive players who rarely gets goals scored against them, instead of the many worse defensive players who bleed goals against? What exactly is the distinction between game 4 (which is Marner's best) and game 5? You acknowledged the stats are faulty, and the source of the discrepancy has already been identified, yet you keep referencing them.

Marner makes mistakes, but Marner's not doing anything unique. You just want to criticize Marner, and things tend to stick out for one individual when you focus so heavily on just one individual, with a pre-existing negative perception.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Does Kuch really have 0 points in game 7’s? Honest question, was not aware of that

Yes. He has 0 points in six game 7s.
Obviously a player who can't handle the most critical moments. He'll never win a cup and Tampa should purge him.
Nick Paul has 2 points in one game 7! Better than Kucherov, confirmed.

 

[Gallagbi]

@Dekes For Days

I'll respond here so the thread doesn't get too long

I use those numbers for production because they're the best I've seen with the trend I've identified, which is Marners struggles under pressure, which mounts IMO as series build and I haven't seen better offensive numbers to either refute or support.

This morning I did a quick calculation on games where the series was at stake and here's what I see. Its my math, so feel free to double check it.

Since 2019
Nylander - 16 GP - 7G - 6A - 0.81 PPG
Mattews - 14GP - 5G - 6A - 0.79 PPG
Tavares - 13GP - 5G - 5A - 0.77 PPG
Marner - 16GP - 1G - 8A - 0.56PPG
One stands out here

For the defensive plays - You don't understand Willys role, it's to clog middle and lock up the C. He does that. Body language sucks when the wide man gets on alone, but his role is to prevent a straight pass up the middle to Zacha. It doesn't shift to Pasta or the lane Pasta's taken at any point. Mo's deep for a puck retrieval I want him more Mobile, with a slightly better gap, but you're in trouble for that set play if the winger hits flight. Marner allows that to happen.

Surely you understand why goals against in Game 2 and 4 like you highlighted above in TB1 arent the same as Game 7 and game 6 OT, right? TB ends up with a 5-1 lead in each game

In Game 6 Marner flips the puck to center in OT (fine) but it's behind Matthews so it functions are purely a pressure release play turning possession over. He fails to cut the boards, which is his responsibility, then doesn't support the middle when beat wide in the 3on3. His misplay creates the opportunity and odd man situation low. This is the only GA I see them on for, so I'm not sure I understand your scum comment given the situation is Marner recovers a rebound with time and space, but makes a bit of a panicked decision. Realistically the play is to either hit Matthews up the middle or turn back and regroup with the D since Tampa gives up low pressure and we have 2 D able to support. Regroup is the "normal" play here

Game 7 GWG is decent coverage overall, you could argue the first forward back is loose on his gap and lazy to support the 2on2, but you're getting picky at that point. Given its Marner, you'd think I would be all over him for the mistake, but I haven't mentioned it to this point.

For the penalties piece and delay, I'd argue it's not the penalty itself that's concerning, it's the situation and trend. It lacks situational awareness, risk and execution.

So as a summary, I'm not so worried about a penalty, or even a misplay, or even a game where production falls off. I'm worried that our Core doesn't elevate when it matters most. I want all of them to be better. When I look at the results, the plays and the situations, there's one that stands out with more opportunity to improve consistently. The one I expect to be the second best offensively, arguably best defensively is the one who produces the least and noticeably so. He's the one who consistently misses his assignment in key moments

 

[Darcy Tucker]

Practically fine but optically bad is like the tagline for most of these Marner criticisms, so that's ironic.
Nylander's job is not to stand in the defensive zone and completely miss the only attacking player and goal-scorer, as the closest defensively-set forward, and then disconnect his controller when he does notice.
Rielly's job is not to stand in the defensive zone and completely miss the only attacking player and goal-scorer, as the closest defenseman, and then fail to disrupt the shot.
Rielly's job is not to be first into the offensive zone, double back into the offensive zone when we've never actually gained the zone, and then be 4th man back on a goal against.
Matthews' job is not to fall down in center ice and fail to pick up the puck flipped to him.

Besides, you blame Marner for doing his job and his role when things don't work out perfectly, so why not everybody else?

The flip to neutral ice happens dozens of times a game on both sides. It's a common play, that only became a turnover because Matthews fell. The zone entry happens regardless, and while Marner isn't quite able to squeeze off an attacking player with way more momentum that shifts to the side at the last second and whips the stick out of his hands, there's a heck of a lot more to the eventual goal than a slowed down player wide on the boards in a 3v3 situation.

This "individual play" argument is just a way to cherry pick and craft a misleading narrative while ignoring the bigger picture.
But since it's so important to you, let's quickly look through the 2022 Tampa series.

In game 2, Matthews gives up the puck at the offensive blueline, and Tampa gets an odd man rush and scores the GWG. Nylander watches the goal scorer skate past him.
In game 4, Tavares fails his opportunity to cut off the player coming down the boards, and then fails to get in the way to block the shot, and they score.
In game 4, Rielly pushes up to center ice at a bad time, and lets a player get past him for an odd man rush and they score.
In game 4, Nylander fumbles the puck at the offensive blueline, and they get the puck and score.
In game 4, Tavares loses the puck in his feet in the offensive zone, and they grab the puck and score.
In game 6, Matthews scrums with a player mid-play instead of getting the puck right next to him. Tampa picks up the puck and Marner intercepts and passes it back to Matthews, which he also misses, and they score.
In game 7, on the series-winning goal right after Marner sets up a great chance, the puck comes back, and when it is in contention at our defensive blueline, Matthews turns up the ice for offense instead of getting back, and they score.

And that's just quickly looking at the things that happen within 5-10 seconds of a goal in one series, not 8 years of scouring every second of play for a perceived mistake.

Oh wait, we get to count basic penalties too!
Well Nylander took a tripping penalty in game 2.
Tavares took a hooking penalty in game 4.
Nylander took a holding penalty in game 5.
Rielly took a tripping penalty in game 6.

Get the tar and feathers ready! Before you notice that these kinds of things happen to every single player in the league. Hockey is a game of mistakes.

Marner is our best playoff producer, and yet you criticize his production because you've picked out some arbitrary games where Marner contributes to just as many goals as other core 4 members, but doesn't get rewarded for them with points to the same extent.

Marner is one of our best defensive players, who gets great defensive results and allows few goals against, and yet you criticize his defensive play because you've uniquely targeted him for every time a goal is scored while he's on the ice, while dismissing the same from everybody else, and the contributions from other linemates.

Marner is our best net penalty player through this era, and averages taking the 47th most penalties, and yet you criticize a fluke puck over glass penalty from years ago, while dismissing penalties from everybody else.

You never actually answered - If we're so worried about penalties, why are we going after our best net penalty player through this era and not the 46 players that averaged more penalties taken? If we're so worried about defensive miscues, why are we going after one of our best defensive players who rarely gets goals scored against them, instead of the many worse defensive players who bleed goals against? What exactly is the distinction between game 4 (which is Marner's best) and game 5? You acknowledged the stats are faulty, and the source of the discrepancy has already been identified, yet you keep referencing them.

Marner makes mistakes, but Marner's not doing anything unique. You just want to criticize Marner, and things tend to stick out for one individual when you focus so heavily on just one individual, with a pre-existing negative perception.

@Dekes For Days

I'll respond here so the thread doesn't get too long

I use those numbers for production because they're the best I've seen with the trend I've identified, which is Marners struggles under pressure, which mounts IMO as series build and I haven't seen better offensive numbers to either refute or support.

This morning I did a quick calculation on games where the series was at stake and here's what I see. Its my math, so feel free to double check it.

Since 2019
Nylander - 16 GP - 7G - 6A - 0.81 PPG
Mattews - 14GP - 5G - 6A - 0.79 PPG
Tavares - 13GP - 5G - 5A - 0.77 PPG
Marner - 16GP - 1G - 8A - 0.56PPG
One stands out here

For the defensive plays - You don't understand Willys role, it's to clog middle and lock up the C. He does that. Body language sucks when the wide man gets on alone, but his role is to prevent a straight pass up the middle to Zacha. It doesn't shift to Pasta or the lane Pasta's taken at any point. Mo's deep for a puck retrieval I want him more Mobile, with a slightly better gap, but you're in trouble for that set play if the winger hits flight. Marner allows that to happen.

Surely you understand why goals against in Game 2 and 4 like you highlighted above in TB1 arent the same as Game 7 and game 6 OT, right? TB ends up with a 5-1 lead in each game

In Game 6 Marner flips the puck to center in OT (fine) but it's behind Matthews so it functions are purely a pressure release play turning possession over. He fails to cut the boards, which is his responsibility, then doesn't support the middle when beat wide in the 3on3. His misplay creates the opportunity and odd man situation low. This is the only GA I see them on for, so I'm not sure I understand your scum comment given the situation is Marner recovers a rebound with time and space, but makes a bit of a panicked decision. Realistically the play is to either hit Matthews up the middle or turn back and regroup with the D since Tampa gives up low pressure and we have 2 D able to support. Regroup is the "normal" play here

Game 7 GWG is decent coverage overall, you could argue the first forward back is loose on his gap and lazy to support the 2on2, but you're getting picky at that point. Given its Marner, you'd think I would be all over him for the mistake, but I haven't mentioned it to this point.

For the penalties piece and delay, I'd argue it's not the penalty itself that's concerning, it's the situation and trend. It lacks situational awareness, risk and execution.

So as a summary, I'm not so worried about a penalty, or even a misplay, or even a game where production falls off. I'm worried that our Core doesn't elevate when it matters most. I want all of them to be better. When I look at the results, the plays and the situations, there's one that stands out with more opportunity to improve consistently. The one I expect to be the second best offensively, arguably best defensively is the one who produces the least and noticeably so. He's the one who consistently misses his assignment in key moments

 

[Gallagbi]

View attachment 901573

Fair. Then again, topics aren't exactly bumping with top tier content at the moment

 

[Antropovsky]

yeah you're hating so much Marner than you're constantly attributing responsabilty for one of his teammate mistake.

GWG from pastrnak gm 7 from Boston is a perfect exemple, i'm pretty you count it amount mess up. But pastrnak was not marner guy, it was rielly guy. The 1st player to enter in ypur territory is always D responsabilities. So rielly had to cover pastrnak but he lost his speed battle and samsonov frozen. So i'm pretty sure you're blaming Marner when in reality he just did exactly what he should.

Or the point goal gm 6 in 2022 because he dump the puck in neutral ice but Holl was just f***ing slow to react than ge get completly caught out of position and was late on the play open up the slot. Dumping a puck in neutral zone when you're in trouble, its not a mess ups... It's a basic play

Marner goal against at even strenght last 3 year is around 1,30 every 60 minutes played, matthews around 2,3 and nylander around 3,3 wven if marner played toughest matchup than both nylander and matthews. If you want to blame someone for defensive game and goal against, you didn't choose the roght guy, sorry.

Your opinion of the Point goal was that Marner was not trying to pass to Matthews and he was instead "dumping the puck"? Lol take the Marner glasses off. If he wanted to clear it, he shouldnt have gone cross ice (and over a forecheckers head) to the Tampa Bay bench and instead played it off the boards and out. Like is constantly preached.

2nd... did yiu also miss Marner getting caugh flat footed and his stick bwing knocked out of his hands? Leading to a 3-2 situation? Pause the play at 7 seconds and you will see Marner standing alone with no stick... while Leaf players are defending Tampa Players.

During this years playoffs Lundqvist discussed the importance of have a "heavy stick" in the playoffs. Marner stick being knocked out of his hands by the puck carrier is hust an example of his lack of playoff grit, and an example of the puck carriers grit. How often do you ever see a players stick go flying our of his hands while defending a puck carrier? Got to love Marner going controller diaconnected mode aftwr losing his stick and showing that he "cares too much" by skating dissapointingly into the boards with his head hung.

 

[thusk]

Your opinion of the Point goal was that Marner was not trying to pass to Matthews and he was instead "dumping the puck"? Lol take the Marner glasses off. If he wanted to clear it, he shouldnt have gone cross ice (and over a forecheckers head) to the Tampa Bay bench and instead played it off the boards and out. Like is constantly preached.

2nd... did yiu also miss Marner getting caugh flat footed and his stick bwing knocked out of his hands? Leading to a 3-2 situation? Pause the play at 7 seconds and you will see Marner standing alone with no stick... while Leaf players are defending Tampa Players.

During this years playoffs Lundqvist discussed the importance of have a "heavy stick" in the playoffs. Marner stick being knocked out of his hands by the puck carrier is hust an example of his lack of playoff grit, and an example of the puck carriers grit. How often do you ever see a players stick go flying our of his hands while defending a puck carrier? Got to love Marner going controller diaconnected mode aftwr losing his stick and showing that he "cares too much" by skating dissapointingly into the boards with his head hung.

dump pass or just dump, that still a dump and it's not what put his team in trouble. It was a 3v3

2nd like i said, 1st guy off the rush is d responsabilities but Holl was just so slow to react and far from hagel than marner had to take him. Marner took hagel, forced him to go in outside and yes he lost his stick but was not the end of the world.... but Holl had 0 reason to rush hagel at the same time in the corner and gave up an easy 2v1 in front of the net. Hagel was not dangerous at all. If Holl just been in good position, nothing would never happened. It would be a 2v2 in the slot with hagel with the puck and in the outside... Hagel would need min 2 or 3 second to be in a position to really been dangerous but this 2-3 second would gave time to everyone to come back in position. From the begginning until the end, Holl had been completly out of position and never cover anyone

3- It's was a trash goal by campbell. Killorn took a wrak shot right in the middle of the net... he only needed to stay there and stay in position but for no reason he lifted his right leg and gave up an easy goal to point.