Does Marner get Boo’d?

[Antropovsky]

Ill say this, Marners interviews are alot better now that hes been knocked off his high horse. Hes also respectful to the media now, and answers the tough questions professionally without getting emotional.

What I still dont like is how he turns questions about Matthews to be about him and Matthews. After Matthews captaincy presser, hes asked something like "how has Matthews evolved to getting here today"..and Marner indicates Matthews work ethic on and off the ice but then pauses and says "you know in a lot of ways Johnny has helped "us" grow in that way"...hes shown us the work never stops on the ice..yada yada and proceeds to talk about how Tavares has helped "us". Essentially turning a "can you brag about Matthews question" into a brag about myself opportunity.

Last season, when he was asked about Matthews 60 goal... he said "yes i think i was going to be in trouble for always passing to him". In numerous post tsmes he also indicates "Me and Auston"

Marner does this though, always name dropping..of course with the Doug Gilmour stuff in the past and even the thank you letter to the fans where he named dropped a bunch of leaf greats while announcing his own signing.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

I have no problems with Mitch Marner.

But in terms of building a playoff hockey team .... he's not the guy. It's been proven. The eye test is clear: the lack of ice in the post season negates him completely. He also underperforms under pressure. Sad, but he has to wear his record in game 5,6,7s.

Hopefully a team needs his services. He is extremely overvalued on a team looking for a cup. He'll never accept what his true worth is.

It's sad he's also blocked trades.

He'll end up on a non-cup team looking for a few more weekday goals to keep the fans happy. He'll get summers off for the rest of his career and his cottage in Muskoka will get lots of use. He can jetski over to Tavares' cottage and laugh about corporate NHL hockey.

Bye Mitch.

 

[Sypher04]

It's sad he's also blocked trades.

We don’t have any reports let alone evidence that this has ever happened why state it so matter of factly?

 

[rumman]

Hopefully once Marner and Tavares is gone they can build a team that can win and we will be busy celebrating

One can hope, but they’ll most likely spend on more overpriced forwards while ignoring the Swiss cheese D and questionable goaltending, book it………

 

[Gallagbi]

Tavares did better than Matthews in those games.

I just want someone who posts this chart to say Tavares deserves a similar salary to Matthews because of this.

Boiling everything down to a single point and making those jumps in logic is problematic. That chart shows a poor trend with Marners production that tails off significantly more than the rest of the core.

Layer on how much he's struggled in his overall play and it doesn't look great.

It doesn't mean he's worthless or worth only the value of those points projected over a year, but it highlights a major concern with the quality of play he's bringing in key moments.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

We don’t have any reports let alone evidence that this has ever happened why state it so matter of factly?

It's not hard.

You are Tre the GM.
No one believes the core works. No one.
You can't run it back.
Resigning Marner is very definition of running it back.

 

[thusk]

@Dekes For Days

Team wide phenomenon lol? Add Marners 7 mess ups that led to gwg goals against in must win games to the rest of the cores accumulates 1 mess up. 33 games in past 7 playoffs, Marner gifting the gw play in 7 of them. Thats around 21% of losses all because of Marner.

This isnt taking into account the fact his mistakes were all in must win games and not games 1 and 2 if series. In must wuns Marner has caused the loss in probably 70% of the games. Tag that onto him being useless offensively in the must win games...and yes quite easily a primary reason for this teams playoff failure. Not even close to a team phenomenon lol.

yeah you're hating so much Marner than you're constantly attributing responsabilty for one of his teammate mistake.

GWG from pastrnak gm 7 from Boston is a perfect exemple, i'm pretty you count it amount mess up. But pastrnak was not marner guy, it was rielly guy. The 1st player to enter in ypur territory is always D responsabilities. So rielly had to cover pastrnak but he lost his speed battle and samsonov frozen. So i'm pretty sure you're blaming Marner when in reality he just did exactly what he should.

Or the point goal gm 6 in 2022 because he dump the puck in neutral ice but Holl was just f***ing slow to react than ge get completly caught out of position and was late on the play open up the slot. Dumping a puck in neutral zone when you're in trouble, its not a mess ups... It's a basic play

Marner goal against at even strenght last 3 year is around 1,30 every 60 minutes played, matthews around 2,3 and nylander around 3,3 wven if marner played toughest matchup than both nylander and matthews. If you want to blame someone for defensive game and goal against, you didn't choose the roght guy, sorry.

 

[Sypher04]

It's not hard.

You are Tre the GM.
No one believes the core works. No one.
You can't run it back.
Resigning Marner is very definition of running it back.

Cool, so you have nothing.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

But pastrnak was not marner guy, it was rielly guy. The 1st player to enter in ypur territory is always D responsabilities. So rielly had to cover pastrnak but he lost his speed battle and samsonov frozen. So i'm pretty sure you're blaming Marner when in reality he just did exactly what he should.

agreed.

Samsonov absolutely screwed that up.
Rielly is slow and old, he got beat VERY BADLY.

Anyone who thinks a winger is responsible for the puck on a dump in has never played hockey.

Cool, so you have nothing.

Well I don't expect Tre to say "We aren't signing Marner" in the media.
Why ?
That would lower his trade value.
and his trade value is 4AAV below his contract as it is.

 

[Hellcat]

All this silliness that some posters are putting more weight on games 5 to 7 based on those numbers below, common sense would suggest games 1 through 4 are more important. With all this games 5 through 7 talk, who would have thunk that if you get a 3-1 lead in the series you have a 91% chance of winning the series, the first four games looks pretty important. If we went based on the cherry pickers opinions, one would have thought the first 4 games are irrelevant.

NHL Series Odds Breakdown: What Are a Team's Odds To Win If They Are Up 1-0, 2-0, 2-1, 3-0 and More?

NHL Series Scenarios Odds - what are the odds for a team to win a playoff series if they are up 1-0, 2-0, 3-0, 3-1, 2-1 or 3-2?

www.sports-king.com

Up 1-0, 68.3% Chance of Winning Series
Up 2-0, 86.3% Chance of Winning Series
Up 3-0, 98% Chance of Winning Series

Up 2-1, 69.3% Chance of Winning Series
Up 3-1, 90.6% Chance of Winning Series

Up 3-2, 78.6% Chance of Winning Series

Series Tied 1-1, 52.2% Chance of Winning Series
Series Tied 2-2, 48.4% Chance of Winning Series
Series Tied 3-3, 48.4% Chance of Winning Series


Win Game 1 as Home Team, Up 1-0
74.7%

Win Game 1 as Away Team, Up 1-0
57.3%

-

Win Game 2 as Home Team, Series Tied 1-1
55.8%

Win Game 2 as Away Team, Series Tied 1-1
48.6%

-

Win Game 2 as Home Team, Up 2-0
88.2%

Win Game 2 as Away Team, Up 2-0
81.3%

-

Win Game 3 as Home Team, Up 2-1
62.7%

Win Game 3 as Away Team, Up 2-1
70.5%

-

Win Game 3 as Home Team, Up 3-0
98.2%

Win Game 3 as Away Team, Up 3-0
97.9%

-

Win Game 3 as Home Team, Down 2-1
21.8%

Win Game 3 as Away Team, Down 2-1
38.0%

-

Win Game 4 as Home Team, Up 3-1
86.3%

Win Game 4 as Away Team, Up 3-1
91.3%

-

Win Game 4 as Home Team, Series Tied 2-2
42.3%

Win Game 4 as Away Team, Series Tied 2-2
57.3%

-

Win Game 4 as Home Team, Down 3-1
5.2%

Win Game 4 as Away Team, Down 3-1
5.6%

-

Win Game 5 as Home Team, Up 3-2
80.1%

Win Game 5 as Away Team, Up 3-2
76.1%

-

Win Game 5 as Home Team, Down 3-2
22.1%

Win Game 5 as Away Team, Down 3-2
20.8%

-

Win Game 6 as Home Team, Series Tied 3-3
42.6%

Win Game 6 as Away Team, Series Tied 3-3
58.8%

 

[notbias]

Boiling everything down to a single point and making those jumps in logic is problematic. That chat shows a poor trend with Marners production that tails off significantly more than the rest of the core.

Layer on how much he's struggled in his overall play and it doesn't look great.

It doesn't mean he's worthless or worth only the value of those points projected over a year, but it highlights a major concern with the quality of play he's bringing in key moments.

What are the stats for games 1-4? This emphasis on 5-7 is all because it is Marner and he is the whipping boy right now.

Key moments exist in games 1-4 too.

If all the players produced as well as Marner in games 1-4, we likely have a few more series wins.

 

[Hellcat]

agreed.

Samsonov absolutely screwed that up.
Rielly is slow and old, he got beat VERY BADLY.

Anyone who thinks a winger is responsible for the puck on a dump in has never played hockey.


Well I don't expect Tre to say "We aren't signing Marner" in the media.
Why ?
That would lower his trade value.
and his trade value is 4AAV below his contract as it is.

Agreed but Marner could have slowed Pasta up a bit, which may have given Rielly more time to react, it was a complete line F up from Forwards to defence to goalie. The fact that they pulled off that set play, when they tried it multiple times earlier in the series, so it shouldn't have been a surprise it was a possibility, is completely unacceptable. Our players were not prepared to play OT. I have Center Ice, I watch Boston and Tampa games when the Leafs are not on, I've see Boston try that stretch pass off the back boards play at least twice before, it didn't work those other times but its a play they have tried before.

 

[BrannigansLaw]

All this silliness that some posters are putting more weight on games 5 to 7 based on those numbers below, common sense would suggest games 1 through 4 are more important. With all this games 5 through 7 talk, who would have thunk that if you get a 3-1 lead in the series you have a 91% chance of winning the series, the first four games looks pretty important. If we went based on the cherry pickers opinions, one would have thought the first 4 games are irrelevant.

NHL Series Odds Breakdown: What Are a Team's Odds To Win If They Are Up 1-0, 2-0, 2-1, 3-0 and More?

NHL Series Scenarios Odds - what are the odds for a team to win a playoff series if they are up 1-0, 2-0, 3-0, 3-1, 2-1 or 3-2?

www.sports-king.com

Up 1-0, 68.3% Chance of Winning Series
Up 2-0, 86.3% Chance of Winning Series
Up 3-0, 98% Chance of Winning Series

Up 2-1, 69.3% Chance of Winning Series
Up 3-1, 90.6% Chance of Winning Series

Up 3-2, 78.6% Chance of Winning Series

Series Tied 1-1, 52.2% Chance of Winning Series
Series Tied 2-2, 48.4% Chance of Winning Series
Series Tied 3-3, 48.4% Chance of Winning Series


Win Game 1 as Home Team, Up 1-0
74.7%

Win Game 1 as Away Team, Up 1-0
57.3%

-

Win Game 2 as Home Team, Series Tied 1-1
55.8%

Win Game 2 as Away Team, Series Tied 1-1
48.6%

-

Win Game 2 as Home Team, Up 2-0
88.2%

Win Game 2 as Away Team, Up 2-0
81.3%

-

Win Game 3 as Home Team, Up 2-1
62.7%

Win Game 3 as Away Team, Up 2-1
70.5%

-

Win Game 3 as Home Team, Up 3-0
98.2%

Win Game 3 as Away Team, Up 3-0
97.9%

-

Win Game 3 as Home Team, Down 2-1
21.8%

Win Game 3 as Away Team, Down 2-1
38.0%

-

Win Game 4 as Home Team, Up 3-1
86.3%

Win Game 4 as Away Team, Up 3-1
91.3%

-

Win Game 4 as Home Team, Series Tied 2-2
42.3%

Win Game 4 as Away Team, Series Tied 2-2
57.3%

-

Win Game 4 as Home Team, Down 3-1
5.2%

Win Game 4 as Away Team, Down 3-1
5.6%

-

Win Game 5 as Home Team, Up 3-2
80.1%

Win Game 5 as Away Team, Up 3-2
76.1%

-

Win Game 5 as Home Team, Down 3-2
22.1%

Win Game 5 as Away Team, Down 3-2
20.8%

-

Win Game 6 as Home Team, Series Tied 3-3
42.6%

Win Game 6 as Away Team, Series Tied 3-3
58.8%

You can't be serious with this lol.

The only game you can be knocked out or close a series in games 1-4 is literally game 4. There is way more pressure in Games 5-7.

 

[LeafGrief]

Good post. One small point - Nylander had the game winner (and the only other goal) in game 6 against Boston.

I should have clarified, I think I'm referring to Boston #2, where Matthews scored the 2-1 goal with a one timer off a nice setup from Muzzin. That was a big player stepping up for his team in a big moment. Playoff glory. That was probably the high-water mark where I most believed this core could do it.

 

[Gallagbi]

What are the stats for games 1-4? This emphasis on 5-7 is all because it is Marner and he is the whipping boy right now.

Key moments exist in games 1-4 too.

If all the players produced as well as Marner in games 1-4, we likely have a few more series wins.

The focus on games 5-7 is because you win/lose series there. Every series in the new core's era has been determined in this period. All 8 series determined in those games.

Given we've choked a number of series leads over this span and only held onto 1, I actually don't think increased production in Games 1-4 moves the needle. Getting series leads hasn't been an issue, closing out has

 

[Hellcat]

What are the stats for games 1-4? This emphasis on 5-7 is all because it is Marner and he is the whipping boy right now.

Key moments exist in games 1-4 too.

If all the players produced as well as Marner in games 1-4, we likely have a few more series wins.

Exactly, key moments happen in games 1 through 4 , the odd's show that games 1 through 4 are critical to winning a series.

You can't be serious with this lol.

The only game you can be knocked out or close a series in games 1-4 is literally game 4. There is way more pressure in Games 5-7.

When do you have better odds, if you lose the first 3 games or if you win the first 3 games? Do better or worse odds have more pressure?

 

[thusk]

The focus on games 5-7 is because you win/lose series there. Every series in the new core's era has been determined in this period. All 8 series determined in those games.

Given we've choked a number of series leads over this span and only held onto 1, I actually don't think increased production in Games 1-4 moves the needle. Getting series leads hasn't been an issue, closing out has

last 3 series leafs played had been win or lost between gm 1 to 4

Boston series was lost between gm 1 to 4 when they was trailing 3-1 and had no choice to win 3 in a row

Florida series had been lost gm 1 to 3 when they was losing 3-0 and had to win 4 in a row

tampa series had been won game 1 to 4 and leafs had to win only one of last 3. The only series leafs played who had really been decide on gm 5 to 7 is habs series.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Boiling everything down to a single point and making those jumps in logic is problematic. That chat shows a poor trend with Marners production that tails off significantly more than the rest of the core. Layer on how much he's struggled in his overall play and it doesn't look great. It doesn't mean he's worthless or worth only the value of those points projected over a year, but it highlights a major concern with the quality of play he's bringing in key moments.

What exactly is the distinction between game 4 (which is Marner's best) and game 5? Some of those game 5s don't even decide anything. Meanwhile, we're leaving out elimination games where Marner had 3 points, and starting the sample right after a season where Marner had 4 points through the final 3 games. It's arbitrary, and designed to match a narrative. Games 1-4 are just as important.

He hasn't struggled in his overall play, and through that timeframe in games 5/6/7, Marner has actually been on the ice for the same number of goals for as Matthews and Tavares. He just hasn't happened to pick up points on them to the same extent.

In that cherry picked sample...
Matthews has picked up a point on 83% of the goals that he's been on the ice contributing to.
Tavares has picked up a point on 83% of the goals that he's been on the ice contributing to.
Nylander has picked up a point on 81% of the goals that he's been on the ice contributing to.
Marner has picked up a point on 42% of the goals that he's been on the ice contributing to.

And that's not even counting all of the chances he sets up as the playmaker, that have gotten flubbed.

 

[therealkoho]

translate a simple question of "why is that?"

I'll try...
before you and @Hellcat randomly chimed in... @Dekes For Days posted the following:

I simply pointed out why @Dekes For Days is full of it... by asking a simple... yet somehow unanswerable question of... and for the 7th time now... why is that?

View attachment 901130




you may be the only person on hfboards that thinks Tavares > Matthews... but if I forget context and go by what you stated... and the stats... what the hell does that say about Marner? lol

Someone must be scoring quite a bit in games 1 to 4 in order to make 5 through 7 possible

 

[Gallagbi]

last 3 series leafs played had been win or lost between gm 1 to 4

Boston series was lost between gm 1 to 4 when they was trailing 3-1 and had no choice to win 3 in a row

Florida series had been lost gm 1 to 3 when they was losing 3-0 and had to win 4 in a row

tampa series had been won game 1 to 4 and leafs had to win only one of last 3. The only series leafs played who had really been decide on gm 5 to 7 is habs series.

No. When you lose in Game 7 OT the series wasn't "lost" earlier. As we saw in the MTL series, being up 3-1 like we were vs TB2 doesn't win you the series either.

Down 0-3 is a hell of a challenge, so I buy it. I wouldn't say Marner was stellar those
first 3 games though, so...

 

[BrannigansLaw]

Exactly, key moments happen in games 1 through 4 , the odd's show that games 1 through 4 are critical to winning a series.



When do you have better odds, if you lose the first 3 games or if you win the first 3 games? Do better or worse odds have more pressure?

The answers to both those questions are obvious and do nothing to address the simple fact I pointed out that there is way more pressure in 5-7. You are twisting yourself into a pretzel here trying to defend god boy

 

[Gallagbi]

What exactly is the distinction between game 4 (which is Marner's best) and game 5? Some of those game 5s don't even decide anything. Meanwhile, we're leaving out elimination games where Marner had 3 points, and starting the sample right after a season where Marner had 4 points through the final 3 games. It's arbitrary, and designed to match a narrative. Games 1-4 are just as important.

He hasn't struggled in his overall play, and through that timeframe in games 5/6/7, Marner has actually been on the ice for the same number of goals for as Matthews and Tavares. He just hasn't happened to pick up points on them to the same extent.

In that cherry picked sample...
Matthews has picked up a point on 83% of the goals that he's been on the ice contributing to.
Tavares has picked up a point on 83% of the goals that he's been on the ice contributing to.
Nylander has picked up a point on 81% of the goals that he's been on the ice contributing to.
Marner has picked up a point on 42% of the goals that he's been on the ice contributing to.

And that's not even counting all of the chances he sets up as the playmaker, that have gotten flubbed.

I'm more open to this counter and it's why I suggested including game 4 v. CLB. I'd love to see the numbers for potential clinching games (either way) instead

And id definitely say he's struggled more than others in those key moments. Looking at individual play you have plays like the MTL turnover in Game 7, the tears and delay PIM in game 6, the botched defensive coverage closing the boards on Point in game 6 v. TB1, then the missed angle on Pasta's game 7 goal this year. That just ignores the awful overall series vs. CBJ

He's had some positive moments, just the GWG assist in TB1 game 5 and the assist in game 7 of the same series. But I can't think of a core player making those mistakes in key moments at the frequency we saw from Mitch

If this is just bad luck, which seems to be what you're alluding to when does it turn around? Because he wasn't good this playoffs. He wasn't good vs. FLA. He wasn't good vs. MTL or CBJ.

 

[francis246]

Game 7 will always be more important than any of the other games, simply by nature of the pressure that is winner-takes-all. But Gilmour's wrap-around was in game 1 and it's one of the all-time Leafs heroic moments. Marner doesn't have that sort of moment. That playoff game, or better yet, series, where he grabs the team by the scruff of the neck and drags us to a win. That's what the great players do.

Matthews has the game 6 winner against Boston, and has dominated playoff games (here and there) Tavares has the OT winner against the Lightning. Rielly had an absolutely heroic series against Tampa last year, and Nylander has 15 goals in the last 4 years. Marner has had some big moments, but the last time he took over a series was the sophomore year against Boston. He was flinging himself in front of those Chara slapshots and we thought we'd found the best winger in the game. He just hasn't done that since.

They're all varying degrees of disappointing, I had to think way too hard and half-ass the heroic moments because they barely have any (goal count for Nylander, come on). But the thing with Marner is that even when he's had his best moments, like this year's goal or big numbers against Tampa last year, he's been overshadowed. He scored 10 points in 4 games last year, but dried up. Rielly was our best player that series, Matthews was incredible, JT got the overtime glory, and we had 5 players over PPG that series. Marner was great, but the point totals don't match the memories.

In what should be one of the all-time greatest playoff comebacks in NHL history, the 3 goals and OT winner against Columbus in game 4, Marner had 3 secondary assists, while Matthews had the winner and two primary assists. Nylander, Tavares, and Hyman all had a goal and an assist. And now we don't even talk about that game because the lot of them laid a goose egg in game 5.

Where is the game we can point to Marner and say, "he did that for us"? Where is the series where he's been our best player? What has he done to cover himself in glory? That's what the ask is. Unfortunately, he hasn't had that since Boston #1, and has plenty of games or even series where people can point to and say, "he was the problem". He had three games against Montreal to put that series to bed, and all he managed in 78 minutes of ice time was 1 primary assist in the second period of game 5. Corey Perry, Eric Staal, Joel Armia, Alex friggin Galchenyuk, and Kotkaniemi outproduced him in those clutch games, they got the glory and Habs fans never hesitate to remind us. And what's worse is that watching him those games it was obvious that he was unplayable. He was our worst player on the ice each and every night. Nylander and Matthews didn't do shit either, but they weren't complete disasters every time they were on the ice.

To heck with point totals, what matters in the playoffs is glory, and Kasperi Kapanen has more playoff glory than Marner.



If BET99FANDUELMONEYPLZMGMCASINOOOOOOOOOOOO NHL lets me, I'd bet on there being waffles on the ice this year. Whether we boo Marner or not, the fanbase is deeply upset about the general state of the team.

People like to point out that this place is only a tiny minority of the fanbase, and while that's true, this is still somewhat indicative as a sample size. Reddit is a bigger sample and huge numbers of them are furious and fed up as well. The media gives people what they want, and they are pumping out endless Marner schlock because the fanbase is gobbling it up. This place used to be way more positive about Marner and the team, and Reddit used to jump down your throat if you breathed a negative word. Now the numbers have shifted completely; here it's a fairly small cadre of posters who defend Marner.

Marner has moments, while they may not be the game breaking stats moments he has moments that have solidified wins.

Against Tampa where we were down 5 on 3 in game one, honest to God, without Marner on the PK we probably get dummied. But he blocked a bunch of shots, cleared the puck and we ended up winning that game despite having to be down early to Clifford.

People say that Marner was the reason why we lost against Florida but he was literally the reason why we won game 4 against Florida two seasons ago. Scored a huge even strength game winner to give us a chance to stay alive in that series. Matthews had ZERO goals. You wanna talk about why we lost that series, Matthews was ass against Florida. IMO he was worse than Marner that series.

I forget which game against Boston but him, Marleau and Kadri went crazy in a game 5 i believe that also saved Mike Babcocks job.

Also had the big blocks against Boston to solidify a win.

We can all agree when it comes to goal scoring he hasn’t had those big moments but we gotta stop acting like he hasn’t had moments to help this team win the games they have won in the playoffs. He isn’t some playoff hero atm but he’s also not a dud

The answers to both those questions are obvious and do nothing to address the simple fact I pointed out that there is way more pressure in 5-7. You are twisting yourself into a pretzel here trying to defend god boy

There is pressure to win every game. If you ask any player they are trying to win every game. The pressure isn’t any less in game 1 than it is in game 5. The goal is to be the first team to win 4 games. That pursuit doesn’t just magically appear in games 5-7. It starts from game 1. So I have no idea what you’re talking about.

 

[Racer88]

I go to a lot of games. He wont get booed at home games. It doesn’t happen. In the entire time of this core I can think of once where I heard Marner singled out by an angry fan and it was after game 7 against Tampa. This guy was absolutely losing his shit in the stands and the amount of people turning on the fan was actually surprising.

I’m not saying the players don’t deserve criticism, they absolutely do but what we read on here and what the media pushes is WAY different than what actually happens at games. There are Marner signs and jerseys everywhere. I do acknowledge though that we might be at least starting to heading in the direction of salute gate again with the lack of playoff success but that’s not going to happen during the regular season unless they miss but again, that’s months down the road.

I personally believe, from my experiences anyway, that if Marner skates out on the ice on opening night with a fresh new contract he will cheered and loudly.

I too don’t think he will get booed but I also think there are a lot more fans angry and fed up with him and the entire core then Dekes thinks there is.
If this team gets off to a slow or poor start you can bet the noise will crank up pretty quick…….paper bags on heads jerseys thrown on the ice, just like the old day.
lol

 

[thusk]

No. When you lose in Game 7 OT the series wasn't "lost" earlier. As we saw in the MTL series, being up 3-1 like we were vs TB2 doesn't win you the series either.

Down 0-3 is a hell of a challenge, so I buy it. I wouldn't say Marner was stellar those
first 3 games though, so...

leafs won game 5 to 7 2 to 1, but lost the series... So yeah they lost tje series between game 1 to 4. If they they didn't lost the series between gm 1 to 4, they would won the series and the fact they been able to comeback and play a gm 7 OT doesn't change anything.