Does Marner get Boo’d?

[Racer88]

Unlike the slamming, most of the praise isn't from media personalities, because rage is what sells.
The praise tends to be from people who have actually played with or interacted with him in some way.

I’m thinking it’s more like the “slamming” goes against your view of Marner and the praise is aligned with your views.
I get it, bias is in all our outlooks, some of us admit it and some do not

 

[Nineteen67]

Let’s beleaf brother. Wouldn’t it be nice to be in a thread not going at each other for once HAHA but instead celebrating success.

There are a few that insist the Sundin and Gilmour eras were not successful.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I’m thinking it’s more like the “slamming” goals against your view of Marner and the praise is aligned with your views.

My personal feelings don't enter into it at all. It's just a simple fact about the sources that these positions are coming from. You're free to align yourself as you choose; either with the media personalities on podcasts spewing controversy for rage clicks, or the people in the game who play and interact with the player in question, saying things that don't benefit them in any way. I choose to align myself with the facts and those who have actual interactions with the player in question.

 

[Hellcat]

There are a few that insist the Sundin and Gilmour eras were not successful.

Leafs in Gilmours/ Clarks era , that Detroit series and the St Louis series were probably 2 of the best playoff series I witnessed this franchise play. 1993 I think? Successful is relative. Borachevsky and his OT goal, Gilmour and his spin-o-rama goal on CuJo . Clark just being Clark.

 

[Nineteen67]

Leafs in Gilmours/ Clarks era , that Detroit series and the St Louis series were probably 2 of the best playoff series I witnessed this franchise play. 1993 I think? Successful is relative. Borachevsky and his OT goal, Gilmour and his spin-o-rama goal on CuJo . Clark just being Clark.

Success is winning and they won a few series. They were Wayne Gretzky away from being in the SCF.

This current group floats around basically unscathed by the media and for the most part, the fans. Imagine them in a tough market.

 

[Racer88]

My personal feelings don't enter into it at all. It's just a simple fact about the sources that these positions are coming from. You're free to align yourself as you choose; either with the media personalities on podcasts spewing controversy for rage clicks, or the people in the game who play and interact with the player in question, saying things that don't benefit them in any way. I choose to align myself with the facts and those who have actual interactions with the player in question.

He might be a nice guy but as far a being a player to help the team achieve greatness he is not because I align myself what my eyes tell me.

 

[Hellcat]

Success is winning and they won a few series. They were Wayne Gretzky away from being in the SCF.

This current group floats around basically unscathed by the media and for the most part, the fans. Imagine them in a tough market.

FRASER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Gallagbi]

Can you win a series if you only win games 5 through 7?

I don't think I've claimed you can, but there's a pretty clear pattern here. Do you not see that? Or is this the type of production you're expecting in those final 3 games?

You're also welcome to re run the numbers for only series clinching games if you feel that's a better representation. I highlighted a gap I would personally address earlier in my CLB comment.

But overall im more concerned about the pattern of lack of productivity late in series, especially when it is pretty noticeable in comparison to the other core players.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Same, I'm hoping he is more Pat Quinn. Pat Burns type coach vs a Keefe type coach...

Quinn and Burns were very different.. what do you mean?

 

[Hellcat]

Quinn and Burns were very different.. what do you mean?

Their constant demand to execute on the fundamentals. Team first.

 

[Mess]

Can you win a series if you only win games 5 through 7?

Yes, isn't that rather obvious?

The only other option would be a 4 game series sweep where games #5-7 are not required and thus irrelevant to the discussion.

If there is a game #5 that means that your team has won at least one game in the first 4 to push it to game #5. Remember when Leafs were up 3-1 to Montreal in the series and by Montreal winning games #5-7 they advanced and Leafs went home. Tell me which games 1-3 or 5-7 in that series played the greater part in determining the series winner?

If games #5 or #6 or particularly game #7 are series deciding games to advance and YOUR team loses them your SEASON IS OVER. The longer the series the more critical each game becomes in the outcome where eventually the WINNER of game #7 is the clincher.

A team can lose games 1-3 and still win a playoff series, No team mathematically can win a series by losing games #5 & #6 & #7.

What we're really talking here is, that as the series advances and each game becomes a series clincher the pressure to perform to win increases, and its Leafs core players seem to collapse under pressure no one more than Marner who carries a top 10 NHL salary with expectations to perform, and his complete disappearing act that results in another disappointing Leafs season end. The results matter and its those exact results which are being held against Marner as a main reason why Leafs season ended again.

 

[Hellcat]

I don't think I've claimed you can, but there's a pretty clear pattern here. Do you not see that? Or is this the type of production you're expecting in those final 3 games?

You're also welcome to re run the numbers for only series clinching games if you feel that's a better representation. I highlighted a gap I would personally address earlier in my CLB comment.

But overall im more concerned about the pattern of lack of productivity late in series, especially when it is pretty noticeable in comparison to the other core players.

Why are the final 3 games any more important than the first 3 games? If you go down 0-3 in the series, what are the chances you are coming back to win that series? It's called a series, isolating 3 games is nonsensical, you look at the series as a whole to assess the players performance. If Mitch had the same stats in games 1 3, 5 and 7 as he did in 1 through 4, it would be no more significant. Clearly he has performed poorly in those final 3 games but again, it's called a series for a reason. Every game played in a playoff series, is important. Suggesting games 5,6,7 are more important suggest that as long as you perform at a high level for three games, the team can take the night off for 4 games, that makes zero sense.

 

[Dekes For Days]

Yes, isn't that rather obvious?
The only other option would be a 4 game series sweep where games #5-7 are not required and thus irrelevant to the discussion.
If there is a game #5 that means that your team has won at least one game in the first 4 to push it to game #5.

If your team has "won at least one game in the first 4", then that means that you have not "only won games 5 through 7".
So the answer would obviously be no, it is not possible.
What you've actually done is highlight the importance of games 1-4, as the other games existing at all are dependent on the results in those.

 

[Hellcat]

Yes, isn't that rather obvious?

The only other option would be a 4 game series sweep where games #5-7 are not required and thus irrelevant to the discussion.

If there is a game #5 that means that your team has won at least one game in the first 4 to push it to game #5. Remember when Leafs were up 3-1 to Montreal in the series and by Montreal winning games #5-7 they advanced and Leafs went home. Tell me which games 1-3 or 5-7 in that series played the greater part in determining the series winner?

If games #5 or #6 or particularly game #7 are series deciding games to advance and YOUR team loses them your SEASON IS OVER. The longer the series the more critical each game becomes in the outcome where eventually the WINNER of game #7 is the clincher.

A team can lose games 1-3 and still win a playoff series, No team mathematically can win a series by losing games #5 & #6 & #7.

What we're really talking here as that as the series advances and each game becomes a series clincher the pressure to perform to win increases, and its Leafs core players seem to collapse under pressure no one more than Marner who carries a top 10 NHL salary with expectations to perform, and his complete disappearing act that results in another disappointing Leafs season end. The results matter and its those exact results which are being held against Marner as a main reason why Leafs season ended again.

What? Seriously? Are you bad at fingers math? If you ONLY win games 5,6,7 that means you lost games 1, 2, 3, 4 - which means you never play games, 5, 6, 7

 

[Ianturnedbull]

https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/toronto-maple-leafs/latest-news/i-dont-understand-why-everyone-is-always-up-his-a-about-everything-former-maple-leafs-defenseman-zach-bogosian-defends-mitch-marner-amid-criticism

Apologies if this was already posted.

Former team mate Zach Bogosian defends Marner (and the "core 4").

 

[Gallagbi]

Why are the final 3 games any more important than the first 3 games? If you go down 0-3 in the series, what are the chances you are coming back to win that series? It's called a series, isolating 3 games is nonsensical, you look at the series as a whole to assess the players performance. If Mitch had the same stats in games 1 3, 5 and 7 as he did in 1 through 4, it would be no more significant. Clearly he has performed poorly in those final 3 games but again, it's called a series for a reason. Every game played in a playoff series, is important. Suggesting games 5,6,7 are more important suggest that as long as you perform at a high level for three games, the team can take the night off for 4 games, that makes zero sense.

More series are won in the final 3 games than in the first 3. Infinitely more in the cap era if we omit the 2020 play-in round.

If we think the series is the same throughout and doesn't intensify the deeper it goes, what's your theory on the consistent drop off in Mitch's numbers and overall play? Just a lengthy coincidence?

 

[57 Years No Cup]

More series are won in the final 3 games than in the first 3. Infinitely more in the cap era if we omit the 2020 play-in round.

If we think the series is the same throughout and doesn't intensify the deeper it goes, what's your theory on the consistent drop off in Mitch's numbers and overall play? Just a lengthy coincidence?

Why do you waste your time with Mr. Rocket Security?

 

[Confucius]

Success is winning and they won a few series. They were Wayne Gretzky away from being in the SCF.

This current group floats around basically unscathed by the media and for the most part, the fans. Imagine them in a tough market.

You must be new… LMAO

 

[NinjaKick]

Whether or not we've made it to round 4 is irrelevant. If you'd actually read the discussion you're quoting, you'd know that not only was Tkachuk (who has been to round 4)

I never mentioned Florida, round 4 or Tkachuk because it has nothing to do with the leafs. I simply posted the stats, and asked a simple question, based on the furthest and most crucial times that the LEAFS have been through in the playoffs.

Over the past little while in the playoffs, the Leafs have faced some of the most difficult situations to produce in the league. What we have seen is a team-wide phenomenon, not individual.

"team-wide phenomenon"? "not individual"?... really|? well than answer a simple question based on that:

why is that?

If you're plucking out arbitrary games from within a bunch of series, it's cherry picking.

our most crucial, and series defining games, is... "arbitrary"? and what did I cherry pick? I just posted simple raw stats based on our history lol

The issue isn't how recent your sample is. The issue is your sample is tiny, incomplete, meaningless

that's because our playoffs results are "tiny", "incomplete", "meaningless" lol what else should I go by? made up "projected" stats?

and if you can't tell the difference between a game in October vs the "yotes", as @Hellcat put it... and game 7 of the playoffs vs Boston? I don't know what to tell you.

the whole argument against Marner. Ironically, his linemates are the ones who have been unable to convert his many good setups; creating the source of the criticism against him.

OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH...

the stats say no and this doesn't make much sense... but thank you!!! this finally answers my question!!!

it's not marners fault his playoff are underwhelming... it's everyone elses...

case closed and thanks again! have a great night

 

[Confucius]

translate a simple question of "why is that?"

I'll try...
before you and @Hellcat randomly chimed in... @Dekes For Days posted the following:

I simply pointed out why @Dekes For Days is full of it... by asking a simple... yet somehow unanswerable question of... and for the 7th time now... why is that?

View attachment 901130




you may be the only person on hfboards that thinks Tavares > Matthews... but if I forget context and go by what you stated... and the stats... what the hell does that say about Marner? lol

Oh come on the answer is obvious. Every team knows if they shutdown “Mitchy” they shutdown the Leafs. The rest of the team just can’t convert on all that open space they got because of “Mitchy”.

 

[Evilhomer]

Strange thread. There is zero chance people boo Marner. This board is a tiny microcosm of the fan base. Fans love this guy, as they do Matthews and Nylander. Odds are he will get off to a hot start, as Nylander did last season, and the same story will play out. This guy is going to be here for a lot of years.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I never mentioned Florida, round 4 or Tkachuk because it has nothing to do with the leafs. I simply posted the stats, and asked a simple question

The discussion you quoted referenced those things, and the statement you quoted (impact of round on production) was a general fact, not a statement about a specific team or player. You didn't just post stats and ask a question. You quoted me and responded with an image that had nothing to do with my post, and then repeatedly tagged me and spammed it while misrepresenting what I said. I don't care about your cherry picked stats, or what particular games production has happened in over some particular time period. It's no more notable than Marner outproducing all of them in the other games.

"team-wide phenomenon"? "not individual"?

Yes. The team has experienced a drop-off in playoff production through this era, not just Marner. I did this a year ago, but up until 2023, Marner dropped off 13.8% and the combined drop off from the rest of the team was 21.3%.

what else should I go by?

The complete stats, to start. Games 1-4 are just as important.

and if you can't tell the difference between a game in October vs the "yotes", as @Hellcat put it... and game 7 of the playoffs vs Boston? I don't know what to tell you.

I never mentioned "a game in October vs. the 'yotes'". This is about you trying to pick out arbitrary games from within a playoff series.

the stats say no

Actually, the stats say exactly that. His play, chance generation, and underlying metrics remain strong. Conversion has occasionally been a struggle, when we run into top-performing goaltending, but Marner individually only accounts for 2.9 unconverted goals (technically 1.9 goals) over the 8 years. Hyman did worse than that in 1 series.

 

[Fogelhund]

‏‏١٣ ألف‏ مشاهدة‏ · ‏‏١٫٣ ألف‏ تفاعل‏ | Mitch Marner asks Craig Berube if he can be captain. He gets some tough love (parody) #mitchmarner #marner #craigberube #torontomapleleafs #torontomapleleafshockey #leafsnation #goleafsgo #leafsforever #nhl #n

Mitch Marner asks Craig Berube if he can be captain. He gets some tough love (parody) #mitchmarner #marner #craigberube #torontomapleleafs #torontomapleleafshockey #leafsnation #goleafsgo...

www.facebook.com

lol.

 

[thusk]

Yes, isn't that rather obvious?

The only other option would be a 4 game series sweep where games #5-7 are not required and thus irrelevant to the discussion.

If there is a game #5 that means that your team has won at least one game in the first 4 to push it to game #5. Remember when Leafs were up 3-1 to Montreal in the series and by Montreal winning games #5-7 they advanced and Leafs went home. Tell me which games 1-3 or 5-7 in that series played the greater part in determining the series winner?

If games #5 or #6 or particularly game #7 are series deciding games to advance and YOUR team loses them your SEASON IS OVER. The longer the series the more critical each game becomes in the outcome where eventually the WINNER of game #7 is the clincher.

A team can lose games 1-3 and still win a playoff series, No team mathematically can win a series by losing games #5 & #6 & #7.

What we're really talking here as that as the series advances and each game becomes a series clincher the pressure to perform to win increases, and its Leafs core players seem to collapse under pressure no one more than Marner who carries a top 10 NHL salary with expectations to perform, and his complete disappearing act that results in another disappointing Leafs season end. The results matter and its those exact results which are being held against Marner as a main reason why Leafs season ended again.

any team can win a series trailed 1-3 by losing gm 5 6 and 7... but its impossible to even play a 5 6 7 game if you don't win any game 1 to 4.

I understand the clutche thing and pressure higher on gm 5 6 and 7 but they are not more important thn than 1 to 4. Whatever what's happened you need to win 4 game game 1 to 7 until you winning or losing are extremely important no matter what.

i giving exemple of florida series last year. the fact nylander get 1 goal on both gm 4 and 5, did that erase the fact he did nothing gm 1 to 3 and probably played his worst series ever vs tampa the round before

You win as a team and losing as a team. If you're losing , its not because 1 PLAYER was not good enough... its the entire team who was not good enough.

I giving you 3 fact of last 3 playoff nobody can argue against

1- nobody had more pts than marner
2- nobody played a toughest mathup than marner. As exemple marner played 81 % vs boston top 6, Matthews is around 60% and nylander 67%)
3- Marner allowed +/-1 goal less than matthews every 60 minutes played at EV and +/- 2 goal less than nylander

 

[francis246]

Yes, isn't that rather obvious?

The only other option would be a 4 game series sweep where games #5-7 are not required and thus irrelevant to the discussion.

If there is a game #5 that means that your team has won at least one game in the first 4 to push it to game #5. Remember when Leafs were up 3-1 to Montreal in the series and by Montreal winning games #5-7 they advanced and Leafs went home. Tell me which games 1-3 or 5-7 in that series played the greater part in determining the series winner?

If games #5 or #6 or particularly game #7 are series deciding games to advance and YOUR team loses them your SEASON IS OVER. The longer the series the more critical each game becomes in the outcome where eventually the WINNER of game #7 is the clincher.

A team can lose games 1-3 and still win a playoff series, No team mathematically can win a series by losing games #5 & #6 & #7.

What we're really talking here as that as the series advances and each game becomes a series clincher the pressure to perform to win increases, and its Leafs core players seem to collapse under pressure no one more than Marner who carries a top 10 NHL salary with expectations to perform, and his complete disappearing act that results in another disappointing Leafs season end. The results matter and its those exact results which are being held against Marner as a main reason why Leafs season ended again.

Games 5-7 aren’t more important than games 1-4. All the games are equal. I don’t know why people are cherry picking three games in a series, it’s kind of silly. Performance in game 1 isn’t less valuable than a performance in game 5. You gotta win 4 games including some from games 1-4.