Does dubas remain GM if the leafs get bounced by Florida?

[GQS]

Dubas gave up 4.7 million in cap space for Murray, a goalie who declined health and performance wise. It shouldn’t have been a shock to see this outcome.

Which in the worst case scenario his contract ends at the end of next season and you let him walk. No long term damage. Its not like we're stuck with him for several more years. If not Murray then who available would you have signed to be Leafs goalie last year?

 

[centipede2233]

Which in the worst case scenario his contract ends at the end of next season and you let him walk. No long term damage. Its not like we're stuck with him for several more years. If not Murray then who available would you have signed to be Leafs goalie last year?

Don’t know and don’t care, but pretty much anyone other than Murray at 4.7 mil caphit would have been better

 

[57 Years No Cup]

You’re looking for a different four letter f-word.

"f***" has several different meanings (See Carlin, George) some good, some bad!

This series illustrates the consequence of the Leafs choosing to get bigger and slower on the back end at the expense of speed and transition offense. Slow players rely more on positioning to defend which is fine but vs fast players or teams you give concede more space. A guy like Devon Toews has the speed to step up to his man and recover if he's caught out of position.

There's a lot of monkey's paw stuff going on in this series. The fanbase has been demanding the team pivot to being bigger and tougher for years and now that they're facing a fast transition team, the lack of team speed becomes really apparent.

The Leafs have walked away or traded players that were fast or played fast like Hyman, Brown, Barrie (I get he sucked but I'm making a point here), Engvall, Mikeyhev, Kase, Kapanen, Johnsson, Moore, Gardiner, Sandin, Dermott, Kadri, Durzi, Moore etc.

And have replaced them with slow, grit and grind types: ROR, McCabe, Schenn, Brodie, Giordano. Lafferty and Bunting can both play fast so they're not included here but they were replacements for departed players worth mentioning. This is not to say those players all suck but you can't build a one dimensional offense and expect to go deep. Good teams have the ability to pivot from one style to another.

You can't cycle and grind your way to a deep run and you can't rely entirely on skill and speed either. There's has to be a healthy balance of both so you can pivot from one style of play to another when a team shuts you done. Florida is getting most of their goals in transition - not off the forecheck like people are saying. They are gladly conceding transition opportunities to us on the other hand because we only have 1 truly dangerous transition player - Nylander. Vs Boston it was the opposite, Florida was using their forecheck game to get past Boston's transition defense which was the best in the league during the season.

Dubas did what a lot of you guys demanded. He added size on the back end, gritty forwards, a defensively responsible two way center that we haven't had since Kadri etc. But it came at the expense of getting rid of any remotely dangerous transition player.

If any of you guys paid attention to the playoffs you'll note that Toronto has lost a lot of games over the last 4 years because of the inability to deal with counter attacks and an inability to pivot away from Plan A (their cycle game) to plan B (they've historically been an excellent transition team, they just don't like to play that way).

Vs Columbus - In games 3, 4 and 5, all but 3 of Columbus' goals came in transition. One was an empty netter and there were two PP goals I believe.

Vs Montreal - Montreal scored all their even strength goals in that series off counter rushes. This is the series btw that got Toronto to abandon their zone entry at all costs method of playing. If you recall, Keefe used to have a scheme where the Leafs would look to enter the zone with possession at all cost and if they couldn't they would regroup and try again. They stopped doing that after 2021.

Vs Tampa - Game 6 OT was the result of a transition counter rush, both game 7 goals by Nick Paul came in transition.

Vs Tampa - Ironically this is where we flipped the script on Tampa. Game 2 we played our A game. Game 3 the first two Leaf goals were in transition, the winning goal was off a cycle. Game 4 we scored the 4-2 goal in transition, 4-3 was a PP goal and 4-4 was a cycle goal. Goal 5 was on the PP.

Vs Florida - Florida in this series is killing us in transition, not on the forecheck. Review the games: Game 1 - 2 goals off a cycle, 1 breakaway and a 6v5 goal due to a delayed penalty. Game 2 - Florida scored 3 goals all in transition. Game 3 - Florida got 1 goal off a cycle, 1 on the PP - in transition and the winning goal came off of a dump in that never really changed possession so its a transition play.

I've been alluding to this many times over my time posting here but get shouted down by the Don Cherry wannabes who seem to think that every playoff loss was because of lack of grit.

 

[TheRumble]

I’m also the 2nd hottest guy in a golf foursome with Brad Pitt, David Beckham and Thor. So what.

"f***" has several different meanings (See Carlin, George) some good, some bad!

Don't take this personally but people like you are the worst hockey fans to converse with. You don't watch games with any amount of an objective eye and prefer to attack the emotional and mental state of the players on the ice which is a worthless exercise. It's no more insightful that two guys discussing who'd win in a fight between the Incredible Hulk and Goku. I'm at least trying to give an insight beyond "Hurr durr they didn't want it bad enough".

 

[GQS]

Don’t know and don’t care, but pretty much anyone other than Murray at 4.7 mil caphit would have been better

Again its just for one more season so who cares about cap hit. Also no one was complaining when Murray was playing well earlier in the season and some Leafs fans were saying how great a move it was at the time.

As well that's why he also signed Samsonov rather than relying solely on Murray to be the answer. And again what other options were out there that were available, affordable and better than the ones Dubas chose?

 

[57 Years No Cup]

Don't take this personally but people like you are the worst hockey fans to converse with. You don't watch games with any amount of an objective eye and prefer to attack the emotional and mental state of the players on the ice which is a worthless exercise. It's no more insightful that two guys discussing who'd win in a fight between the Incredible Hulk and Goku. I'm at least trying to give an insight beyond "Hurr durr they didn't want it bad enough".

 

[These Are The Days]

I disagree about Tavares. Sure his salary has prevented the Leafs from making other moves to help the team, but at the same time I don't know how you can decline bringing home a star/superstar hometown player that would improve your offense significantly and give you two great centers down the middle.

Few if any people whether they were Leafs fans or not criticised the move as being bad when the deal was signed and at most said the price was slightly on the high side. Looking at his time as a Leaf he's played very well most of his time here although he hasn't been as much of a game breaker as we've hoped. Still even if he hasn't been everything that Leafs fans may have hoped for, he also hasn't been a disappointment either.


As we're seeing now its less about how the team is built and more about the core players not showing up consistently to lead the way. Dubas has done his best to surround the core with leadership, experience and toughness with the moves he's made this past deadline. I don't know what else he could do this trade deadline to make this team an even better playoff team when at the end of the day no matter what moves he made its still up to Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Tavares and Rielly to show up and deliver.

They delivered pretty well in the 1st round, but now many of them have underperformed significantly in the 2nd round. Can't blame the GM when the players on the ice that are expected to lead the team aren't showing up consistently to get the job done. The Oiler's two best players have been monsters these playoffs especially Drai and they've led their team to playoff success. None of the Leafs best players have come close to being that good in the playoffs in leading their team to victory.

Felt tidier to keep it in this thread here

There is much to agree with here. But the crux of my argument is based on that Dubas already had Reilly, Nylander, Matthews and Marner in tow with Kadri as the 2C. He was a top pairing defender and a decent goaltender away from having a team ready to win it all. I'm not trying to blame Tavares either, it's just that it didn't add anything to the team that it didn't already have. Tavares' price-point very likely inflated the other contracts because if you go and sign him for $11 million, you HAVE TO sign Marner and Matthews for something similar. Without Tavares, both men probably take something similar to what Stamkos did. But even then, I'm nitpicking here. The "patience" has gone on for too long and the roster is not built to win. The ONLY reason Tampa broke through in the leadership department is when Stamkos became the man on his own. He had Ryan Callahan holding his hand. Bringing in Chris Kunitz, the corpse of Brendan Morrow. I could go on.

From an outsider's perspective the Leafs have been one of the most fun teams to watch grow I think in my entire hockey fandom starting in 2004. But the fan in me said "oh no" as soon as Dubas went "all in" early in the process. He left himself no higher mountain to summit. I know it's easy to criticize in my position and go on in hindsight, but Tavares was a fruit I would not have partaken of and if Babcock doesn't get better results, you do EXACTLY what they did and hire Sheldon Keefe but gut the identity down to something similar to what Tampa does. They have goals for days but won their Cups on "death by structure" and a whole lot of rope-a-dope bullshit. Dubas needed addition to Reilly, not Matthews, Marner and Nylander.

 

[TheRumble]

Like I said to you once before, wait until the playoffs are over whether it's 4 games or 21 and shut the hell up and let the rest of us enjoy whatever is left. I don't think we're coming back so go and gloat since you were one of the people cheering against any sort of success. I don't get the idea of cheering against the team just so you can enjoy being right to a bunch of randoms on the internet but have at it.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

My issue with Dubas putting his faith in them is that if me, some dickhead from Winnipeg, can see they're a failure, why can't their own boss see it? It shows horrible judgement on the part of Dubas, and hes done nothing to show hes this hotshot GM. And i have no idea why you'd wish success for someone who's wasted so many years of the Leafs

Oh he sees it...it's just that if he trades one of them he admits it to the world. Not that the world needs a trade to see it didn't work...

He is just hoping that the reality of this core not being competitive gamers was not true and tinkered around them as best as he could. They failed him. Simple as.

Matthews, Marner, Tavares, Nylander, Kerfoot, Reilly, Brodie & Holl are all the players that have stuck around over the past 5 years. Not a single one of them you would consider an emotional, inspiring, physical or mean player. Thats essentially our entire core over the past half decade that is a gutless bunch of players. Cant win with them, cant do it.

But do they have a high hockey IQ? That seems to be more important to MLSE.

 

[Canadian Finn]

the rumble is the perfect leaf fan for this team.

 

[usernamezrhardtodo]

A GM's decision-making ability is what differentiates the good ones from the bad ones.

Kyle came in and his first decision was to arrogantly re-invent hockey, thinking he was some wunderkind genius. In a way only a nepo baby could, he decided that small, skilled forwards were the future and physicality was "the old way". That blew up in his face.

Kyle then decided to not conduct a wide search for his next coach, instead he handed the keys to an AHL coach who never worked up the ladder at the NHL level. That also blew up in his face.

Kyle's trades were hit or miss. A recurring pattern was he had no ability to assess physical talent (Kadri, Marchment) and overpaid for pieces like Foligno.

Kyle's drafts were just okay. Our farm system is bottom third in the league.

So to assess the collection of decisions Kyle has made, it's been a complete failure. And if you only consume Toronto media, I would understand why you'd think Kyle is widely coveted. The fact is, there are GM's hoisting the Cup every year and Kyle is never one of them. He's not some young gem anymore, his track record is who he is.

Let's move on and do better.

Basically it's the "I don't want to break up with my girlfriend/boyfriend in case they get someone better looking and are happier" with the keep Dubas crowd. I am on the fence and can see both sides. I really think these core 4 don't work well because they either expect one of the other 3 guys to step up or its a psychological issue that can't be fixed. Either way...it needs to be changed. If AM doesn't want to put pen to paper...then he is the goner at the draft. I personally don't think AM has it in him to be the guy who raises his game...he just can't do it for some reason. I am willing to watch him score 60-70G for someone else's team....because watching him flunk out in the playoffs is worse to me.

 

[baton elevated]

I would consider keeping him but with a couple of caveats.
1) Keefe gone and a coach with pedigree brought in like a Quinville
2) One or possibly two of the $11's gets traded.
If you let Marner go, Matty will pout and possibly bolt for the states as a free agent.
AM would command a king's ransom in a trade and bring back possibly 3 young (good pieces) and draft picks.
I like this option best because I don't feel AM's heart us in Canada.
It only takes 2 (35 goal scorers to replace his production ). The rest would be gravy
Would you rather have Tage Thompson at $7M or Matty at $13-$14M per year as an example. Even Verhege scored 42 this year.
We need to break up this core, it has proven it can't win.

 

[Commander Clueless]

I like Dubas.

But I think he's gone.


I could, of course, be wrong. I often am.


I for one will be very interested to see how he rebuilds/retools Pittsburgh.

 

[Canadian Finn]

no caveats.

get. rid. of. him.

 

[Antropovsky]

Good ridden's Dubas. Dubas isn't some boy genius.... There are plenty of teams using analytics. He made many mistakes that show incompetence and immaturity. The fact that he hired a green rookie coach is proof that he has no idea what he's doing and obviously had an inflated ego.

Bill Zito, Florida's gm was a masterful hire by Florida and is a great comparison. Zito played college hockey at Yale, got a law degree, was a player agent, and then made his way up the ranks I'm the NHL and was known got his analytical scouting and his contracts at the nhl level. As an agent he represented top players Tim Thomas, Rask, Rafalski, Timonen and John Madden. Someone who played the sport, someone who has experience negotiating top player contracts, someone with top notch education, someone older mid 50's and more experienced, someone with a track record and relationships at the NHL level. Zito didn't go out and hire a young green coach, he hired one of the most experienced coaches in P.Maurice. Zito picked up Bennett, Verhaeghe, Marchment, Montour on the cheap and masterfully traded for Tkatchuk for his aged veterans who would be looking for retirement contracts. He signed Tkatchuk to a 8 year 9.5 million dollar contract.

Shanahan watched MoneyBall a few too many times before sitting down with Dubas and though he met his Peter Brand.

 

[hockeywiz542]

Pittsburgh Penguins Could Have Great Interest in Kyle Dubas - The Hockey News

With the Toronto Maple Leafs a game away from being swept out of the second round of the playoffs, the rumors have already boiled again regarding the Pittsburgh Penguins and Kyle Dubas.

The Penguins and Fenway Sports Group (FSG) are searching for a new front office staff following the firing of Ron Hextall, Brian Burke, and Chris Pryor.

If Dubas is on his way out of Toronto, there is no reason why he shouldn’t be first on every team’s list for a new general manager.

Elliotte Friedman of the 32 Thoughts Podcast stated that the Penguins are still in the early phases of the search, but might have their sights set on Dubas.

“I think they are potentially interested in waiting to see what happens with Dubas in Toronto,” Friedman said. “We’re not sure how many people Pittsburgh will be hiring or what the structure will be.”

Friedman doesn’t believe the Penguins are close to making an announcement, but if Dubas is on their radar, interviews might start soon.

The Maple Leafs are down 3-0 in their series with the Florida Panthers and that might spell the end of Dubas in Toronto.

Something the Penguins have that most teams searching for a new face don’t, is the ability to give Dubas more than just a role as general manager.

FSG and the Penguins can hand Dubas the keys to the castle and make him general manager as well as president of hockey operations.

 

[tokyoite]

activate the scorched the earth.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

I'm not convinced beating Tampa wasn't enough to save his job.

I'm not saying it should be but I could see it being enough especially when by all accounts Matthews believes in Dubas and Matthews needs an extension.

 

[DarkKnight]

Listen to these players, they even talk like hockey is analytics. Instead of saying they haven’t delivered, the all go on about scoring chances, some delusional world of expected goals seems to be enough to rationalize failure. This whole organization has lost the plot, man they respected us in the handshake line we lost, we had our chances, if we just keep doing what we are doing those high danger, blah blah blah blah blah. It’s crazy to listen to these people.

 

[socko]

Why do I feel like sending Dubas to the Pens is kind of like in Star Trek when they talked about uploading that virus to the Borg. They decided against it because it was too cruel, but I don't share their mercy.

 

[keonsbitterness]

I've taken heat for saying it in the past, but I believe there is a very real conversation that could be had regarding if Dubas was sent here to intentionally sabotage this team.

Who exactly is having this conversation?

You just have to ask yourself how many GMs who were given the team Dubas got, could do AT LEAST as well as Dubas did. I'd say about every single GM you can name could fluke into winning a single playoff round.

I'd bet at least couple would have turned this into a non-playoff team.

 

[Trapper]

Listen to these players, they even talk like hockey is analytics. Instead of saying they haven’t delivered, the all go on about scoring chances, some delusional world of expected goals seems to be enough to rationalize failure. This whole organization has lost the plot, man they respected us in the handshake line we lost, we had our chances, if we just keep doing what we are doing those high danger, blah blah blah blah blah. It’s crazy to listen to these people.

When you listen to the Shanahan/Dubas post season interviews, it’s no wonder. 7 attempts of roll it back.

 

[Smif]

Go look at any successful team in the modern era, what do they all have in common?

Clue: A+ cap structure on their stars

Our cap structure is garbage. Dufus gets all the pieces handed to him, drafts none of them, screws up all their contracts and builds a no heart, no emotion, no tenacity culture.

I think it's funny when people he say he got everything handed to him on a platter but then blame those same players for no showing when it matters. He got handed a flawed core, no GM was going to make these guys win in the playoffs.

 

[JKG33]

I think it's funny when people he say he got everything handed to him on a platter but then blame those same players for no showing when it matters. He got handed a flawed core, no GM was going to make these guys win in the playoffs.

Dubas was handed the players. He went and overpaid them. He refused to trade them.

 

[GQS]

There is much to agree with here. But the crux of my argument is based on that Dubas already had Reilly, Nylander, Matthews and Marner in tow with Kadri as the 2C. He was a top pairing defender and a decent goaltender away from having a team ready to win it all.

As we've seen this isn't true at all. Marner, Matthews and Nylander aren't getting it done now even with all the help they're getting. No reason to believe that in the absence of Tavares that they would be even better than what they've shown so far in the playoffs. Also Rielly has only looked really good in the playoffs this year and perhaps last season. He hasn't looked like a number one Dman for much of the regular season and in previous playoff seasons.

As for Kadri he was good while he was here, but offensively he was never putting up star level numbers. With the Avs he really only had one very good season which he then converted into a nice payday and then went back to his career average in points in his first season with the Flames.

I'm not trying to blame Tavares either, it's just that it didn't add anything to the team that it didn't already have. Tavares' price-point very likely inflated the other contracts because if you go and sign him for $11 million, you HAVE TO sign Marner and Matthews for something similar. Without Tavares, both men probably take something similar to what Stamkos did. But even then, I'm nitpicking here. The "patience" has gone on for too long and the roster is not built to win. The ONLY reason Tampa broke through in the leadership department is when Stamkos became the man on his own. He had Ryan Callahan holding his hand. Bringing in Chris Kunitz, the corpse of Brendan Morrow. I could go on.

Only speculation as to whether Tavares' contract pushed Marner and Matthews contract higher rather than being what they would've asked for regardless. Also before Tavares many Leafs fans were hoping Stamkos would sign here when he became a free agent and Leafs management made a pitch for him as well so its not like this is the first time the Leafs organization wanted to sign a major star when they became available.

Also isn't apart of the reason why players sometimes want more when signing with Canadian teams is because of taxes? What Stamkos, Kucherov and Point signed for in Tampa would they sign for that same amount to play for Toronto if they were available? Probably not because of taxes and they'd want more to compensate.

From an outsider's perspective the Leafs have been one of the most fun teams to watch grow I think in my entire hockey fandom starting in 2004. But the fan in me said "oh no" as soon as Dubas went "all in" early in the process. He left himself no higher mountain to summit. I know it's easy to criticize in my position and go on in hindsight, but Tavares was a fruit I would not have partaken of and if Babcock doesn't get better results, you do EXACTLY what they did and hire Sheldon Keefe but gut the identity down to something similar to what Tampa does. They have goals for days but won their Cups on "death by structure" and a whole lot of rope-a-dope bullshit. Dubas needed addition to Reilly, not Matthews, Marner and Nylander.

I don't see Tavares as an 'all in', but rather a significant addition to becoming a playoff contender. Matthews and Tavares down the middle. Who would say that was a bad thing? He was brought in to add experience as well as improving the Leafs offense and Its worked well over the years, just not as well as Leafs fans had hoped when it comes to playoff results.

Turn back the clock and say the Leafs don't go after Tavares. Hard to say with that Tavares cap space if the players they sign would be as good or better than signing Tavares with that money.