Does dubas remain GM if the leafs get bounced by Florida?

[digger1188]

Hire Lou, he's doing well. Or Treliving, Calgary is thriving.

This was it. When the Leafs went with Dubas, and pushed Lou out, it was the beginning of all the issues we’re seeing today. Lou went on to back to back final 4 appearances, and the leafs went on to watch their overpaid core fail repeatedly

 

[myleafs]

Yeah Keefe is another Dallas Eakins who probably interviews really well. I recall reading an article about how much Keefe is a fan of Barcelona possession football and wanted to track more variables.

These are the kind of guys that rashly want to move hot dog eating kessels with Ironman streaks and nazem Kadris because he's on mitch marner made-up list of being lazy.

Where is the meritocracy in leafs management?

Interview? There was no interview. Handed the keys to the kingdom from his pal.

 

[SprDaVE]

Dubas' past failures have nothing to do with Mark Hunter, just like his potential future success doesn't take away from his failures here. Bringing up Hunter 5 years after he left isn't the insult you think it is. He's old news. Let it go.

IT wasn't meant as an insult. Moreso perhaps going with the guy that got away. Or maybe you got someone else in mind?

It's easy to fire GMs.

 

[Canadian Finn]

If you voted yes, are you really a fan of this team?

not a fan of this team.
I'm a leafs fan, but this team has been dogshit since the beginning of the hf fools telling me "we are paying now for their future abilities".

and now it's the future ... guess what? they don't have the abilities we paid for.

 

[myleafs]

His disciples disagree.

no shite....Im a little surprised at the amount of Dubas support in here today to be honest.

 

[Menzinger]

The one thing that people keep conflating is what they want to happen with what will happen. The safe bet is still probably will see him back as GM regardless of if anyone thinks it's good or bad.

A corporate ownership board isn't going to be as swayed by emotion as fans are

 

[Gabriel426]

The fire Dubas crowd essentially just want change to the culture and to the core. What if, let’s say the best GM we can think of comes in and didn’t trade away any of the core and somehow resigned everyone but Kerfoot and trade away Murray to make the cap works.
What’s the point of firing Dubas?
If the answer is, well the coach will be different, let’s say Dubas fire Keefe and signs that coach too.

Instead of reacting to let’s fire Dubas, the question is can Dubas trade and switch the core up and build a Cup Winning Team?

 

[Canadian Finn]

no

 

[JKG33]

not a fan of this team.
I'm a leafs fan, but this team has been dogshit since the beginning of the hf fools telling me "we are paying now for their future abilities".

and now it's the future ... guess what? they don't have the abilities we paid for.

Yup. This team as assembled disgusts me

The fire Dubas crowd essentially just want change to the culture and to the core. What if, let’s say the best GM we can think of comes in and didn’t trade away any of the core and somehow resigned everyone but Kerfoot and trade away Murray to make the cap works.
What’s the point of firing Dubas?
If the answer is, well the coach will be different, let’s say Dubas fire Keefe and signs that coach too.

Instead of reacting to let’s fire Dubas, the question is can Dubas trade and switch the core up and build a Cup Winning Team?

What has he shown to be given that benefit of the doubt? He's kept them around well past their expiry. He doesn't deserve to be the one to trade them

 

[Gabriel426]

The one thing that people keep conflating is what they want to happen with what will happen. The safe bet is still probably will see him back as GM regardless of if anyone thinks it's good or bad.

A corporate ownership board isn't going to be as swayed by emotion as fans are

I think that’s the question. The board will ask Shanny and Dubas what happened and what’s your plan? If their plan is still to trust the core 5 without any change, then both of them are most likely gone.
Hayes said it best, the top two needs to produce, the fact that not only are they not producing but also giving pucks away is unacceptable.
Game 4 will be interesting bc if they show up without any fights in them, I could care less if they win 10 Cups for another team, they can’t be on the Leafs.

Yup. This team as assembled disgusts me


What has he shown to be given that benefit of the doubt? He's kept them around well past their expiry. He doesn't deserve to be the one to trade them

What if the GM don’t trade them? And his excuse is he wants to see who these guys are. That’s my point.

Lately, Dubas been good at trading players barring the North Division year. Do I have faith in him making the big trades, unless a seasonal savy vet GM is available, I have as much faith in Dubas as any other GMs.

 

[Jmo89]

IT wasn't meant as an insult. Moreso perhaps going with the guy that got away. Or maybe you got someone else in mind?

It's easy to fire GMs.

I'm not employed by the richest franchise in hockey. I don't pretend to know who might be the best hire, but fans are entitled to judge the team based on their results. Dubas' results have been a half decade of failure.

I've actually relented a bit on Dubas this past year. My thinking was, hopefully he's over the growing pains and I don't want to waste another year or two of the core's prime for another GM to settle in.

But once again we have to sit here and watch just how pathetically outmatched Keefe is in the playoffs, and watch Marner be an 11M $ black hole. I simply can't trust Dubas after he continues to trust those two in big moments (and yes, Matthews has been equally as bad, but I can't fault him for holding onto his #1 center.)

Dubas showed loyalty to the wrong guys and it likely cost the Leafs seasons of playoffs success and his job.

 

[Menzinger]

I think that’s the question. The board will ask Shanny and Dubas what happened and what’s your plan? If their plan is still to trust the core 5 without any change, then both of them are most likely gone.
Hayes said it best, the top two needs to produce, the fact that not only are they not producing but also giving pucks away is unacceptable.
Game 4 will be interesting bc if they show up without any fights in them, I could care less if they win 10 Cups for another team, they can’t be on the Leafs.

Yep.

The way I see things if the MLSE board is split, compromise will win out. Meaning that probably Dubas is offered an extension, but given the mandate to make substantial changes to coaching in the core. He stays if he's willing to do it and if not he'll jump ship to somewhere like Pittsburgh.

 

[Gabriel426]

Yep.

The way I see things if the MLSE board is split, compromise will win out. Meaning that probably Dubas is offered an extension, but given the mandate to make substantial changes to coaching in the core. He stays if he's willing to do it and if not he'll jump ship to somewhere like Pittsburgh.

Well, Keefe is gone, there is no way he is coming back unless they win four straight. His lack of preparation for the Panthers is clearly showing.

The top guys can still redeem themselves but they need to show up and lead even if they end up losing the series. If they just laid dead, then all of them must go. I really think it is a mental thing bc I don’t believe for one second that they don’t care or don’t want to win but they are too weak mentally.
JT lacks everything there is in a leader. I would resign ROR and Acciari and put an A on those two and the C to Reilly-which he should have been wearing from the start. Maybe that will free up the pressure mentality he has.
AM and MM are the key, as both been showing they are Pippen and Rodman than MJ and Magic.
Maybe it is best to part way with one of them as long as another key piece can come back.
It is really unfortunate we drafted and developed two guys that could literally take over games and be the best players against 31 teams in the league(except McD and Drai) and yet they can’t cope with the pressure of the playoffs.

 

[JKG33]

I think that’s the question. The board will ask Shanny and Dubas what happened and what’s your plan? If their plan is still to trust the core 5 without any change, then both of them are most likely gone.
Hayes said it best, the top two needs to produce, the fact that not only are they not producing but also giving pucks away is unacceptable.
Game 4 will be interesting bc if they show up without any fights in them, I could care less if they win 10 Cups for another team, they can’t be on the Leafs.


What if the GM don’t trade them? And his excuse is he wants to see who these guys are. That’s my point.

Lately, Dubas been good at trading players barring the North Division year. Do I have faith in him making the big trades, unless a seasonal savy vet GM is available, I have as much faith in Dubas as any other GMs.

Dubas up until this year targeted the exact wrong type of players.

And a new GM doesn't have time for that. Thanks to Dubas' master planning with contracts its now shit or get off the pot time with Matthews.

 

[Gabriel426]

Dubas up until this year targeted the exact wrong type of players.

And a new GM doesn't have time for that. Thanks to Dubas' master planning with contracts its now shit or get off the pot time with Matthews.

It showed Dubas learned from his mistakes.
Dubas problem is betting on the wrong horses but any GMs would had made the same bet as him if they were in his position. If Stamkos chose to sign, do you think Lou won’t sign him? We would probably be in the same situation if we signed Stamkos instead of JT bc Stamkos is also not a good playoff performer.

 

[myleafs]

It showed Dubas learned from his mistakes.
Dubas problem is betting on the wrong horses but any GMs would had made the same bet as him if they were in his position. If Stamkos chose to sign, do you think Lou won’t sign him? We would probably be in the same situation if we signed Stamkos instead of JT bc Stamkos is also not a good playoff performer.

The first thing I would want to know from Dubas is if he has a different take on the 4 amigos now and does he see that as a collective they arent winning anything or does he still feel that success is just around the corner with them.

 

[nuck]

The fire Dubas crowd essentially just want change to the culture and to the core. What if, let’s say the best GM we can think of comes in and didn’t trade away any of the core and somehow resigned everyone but Kerfoot and trade away Murray to make the cap works.
What’s the point of firing Dubas?
If the answer is, well the coach will be different, let’s say Dubas fire Keefe and signs that coach too.

Instead of reacting to let’s fire Dubas, the question is can Dubas trade and switch the core up and build a Cup Winning Team?

I can't give KD a pass on the goaltending solution he chose. Murray ended up exactly as feared, and exactly as his history indicated might happen. There was no lineup of suitors for Samsonov and he was never intended to be a "co number 1", that was just kind words from the boss in case he had to step in for Murray more than was hoped for. If the Leafs had started the season with Sami as their #1 people would have thought Dubas was insane. Murray with his pedigree was to be the club's ace in the hole. Sami did manage a strong regular season, as Freddie and Jack had before him, but was as porous in the playoffs as those two at their worst, and this against the weakest 1st round opponent the Leafs have met in 20 years. Now they are about to0 get dunked on by the 18th best team in the league and a .901 3.07 goalie.

Now if Kyle sends Murray to Robidas island, adds an actual #1 goalie who wasn't glass, dealt one of the big 3 for cap space, and moved on from Keefe I would be okay with him returning. In fairness to SK not every coach can get the most out of every player, and therefore the wrong lineup can be a challenge but its easier to change 1 coach than 20 players and it isn't like he didn't get a few chances to get it right.

The question is would Dubas trade and switch the core up, and move on from a coach who may not fit the lineup. It would involve admitting some mistakes that he has stubbornly repeated and I don't think he can.

 

[Gabriel426]

The first thing I would want to know from Dubas is if he has a different take on the 4 amigos now and does he see that as a collective they arent winning anything or does he still feel that success is just around the corner with them.

That will be my question too. If he still bets on this core, he is gone.

If Dubas said the core needs change and I am looking to trade one or two of them. Then my question will be who are you planning to bring in to make the other two or three to give a damn in playoffs?

 

[The Best Leafs Everr]

He made 3 big mistakes.
1. Signing JT and even if he signed him he should've never been a captain of the team.
2. Not listening to Babcock who probably could've put an end to the core much sooner.
3. Signing Matthews, Marner to lopesided contracts. Meaning they were neither long term nor cap friendly.

If I want anyone to trade these guys and start over, Dubas would be my number 1 choice. Look at his trading record, look at his draft record. You can't deny that the guy is an absolute stud at finding value. If we are drafting let's say in top 10 he can do wonders to the drafts.

If we want to build around Matthews who is arguably better to build around than any other, he will be the guy who knows the most what it will take to make this team a winner.

He made arguably the best team this year you run it on a game on a simulator or on betting sites. Everybody had this team as a favorite to win it all. It's the players fault, we need to call the core out. We can replace the wingers and we will be fine. Matthews is a good piece(and the only piece imo) to build around if we want to retool.

I don't want a new GM who will make the trades for the sake of capturing the hearts of the fools that are us leafs fans. Let him ride it out.

 

[Stephen]

The one thing that people keep conflating is what they want to happen with what will happen. The safe bet is still probably will see him back as GM regardless of if anyone thinks it's good or bad.

A corporate ownership board isn't going to be as swayed by emotion as fans are

That's good and bad. Like I said before the playoffs started you don't want to mandate change out of frustration and throw everything out in a fit of rage.

But there's going to have to be middle ground where a lot of the bloodletting that should have happened in 2021 actually happens now.

The Leafs are an entertainment product and the Big 4 just aren't that fun to watch in post season. Getting swept and not playing Game 7 in the first round also means their shittiness has a real $ impact too.

Anyway, I don't think 2023 Dubas needs to be fired for all his learning on the job, but if I were the man upstairs I'd be having a pretty hard talk with him about the vision and how deep the cuts need to go.

 

[eddieO]

A GM's decision-making ability is what differentiates the good ones from the bad ones.

Kyle came in and his first decision was to arrogantly re-invent hockey, thinking he was some wunderkind genius. In a way only a nepo baby could, he decided that small, skilled forwards were the future and physicality was "the old way". That blew up in his face.

Kyle then decided to not conduct a wide search for his next coach, instead he handed the keys to an AHL coach who never worked up the ladder at the NHL level. That also blew up in his face.

Kyle's trades were hit or miss. A recurring pattern was he had no ability to assess physical talent (Kadri, Marchment) and overpaid for pieces like Foligno.

Kyle's drafts were just okay. Our farm system is bottom third in the league.

So to assess the collection of decisions Kyle has made, it's been a complete failure. And if you only consume Toronto media, I would understand why you'd think Kyle is widely coveted. The fact is, there are GM's hoisting the Cup every year and Kyle is never one of them. He's not some young gem anymore, his track record is who he is.

Let's move on and do better.

 

[Dreakmur]

Isn't there a saying something like "f*** me once, shame on you, f*** me twice, shame on me"?

You’re looking for a different four letter f-word.

 

[nuck]

It showed Dubas learned from his mistakes.
Dubas problem is betting on the wrong horses but any GMs would had made the same bet as him if they were in his position. If Stamkos chose to sign, do you think Lou won’t sign him? We would probably be in the same situation if we signed Stamkos instead of JT bc Stamkos is also not a good playoff performer.

With Stammer there was no AM34 already in the fold and 17g Nazim Kadri was their #1c. When Tavares was signed Matthews was already a ppg player and NK was coming off a 32g season. I don't think Lou or most other GMs would have even given JT a look in that situation. Fixing a hole in the lineup that didn't exist when anyone could predict that would be the end of Kadri as a 30g producer and that he wouldn't stick around for 3rd line minutes. Now Tavares had a career best 1st season under Babcock which built off his last year with the Isles. I don't want to turn this into a pro Babs discussion but I feel like a different coach than Keefe could have gotten more value out of JT since then. Not a fit for the coach and not "the guy" any more and struggling to get to a ppg. I believe this but I am not sure much magic comes back at age 33, more like some past seasons were perhaps lost.

 

[Trapper]

Yep.

The way I see things if the MLSE board is split, compromise will win out. Meaning that probably Dubas is offered an extension, but given the mandate to make substantial changes to coaching in the core. He stays if he's willing to do it and if not he'll jump ship to somewhere like Pittsburgh.

A new plan is definitely needed. The old (or current one) isn’t working. The coach is an easy change. You don’t want to move out valuable assets until you know what you are trying to evolve into. No good trading Marner or Nylander for player A and B if you don’t have that plan.
If/When you move them, you move them for the guys that fit the good regular season/better postseason team.

 

[TheRumble]

This series illustrates the consequence of the Leafs choosing to get bigger and slower on the back end at the expense of speed and transition offense. Slow players rely more on positioning to defend which is fine but vs fast players or teams you give concede more space. A guy like Devon Toews has the speed to step up to his man and recover if he's caught out of position.

There's a lot of monkey's paw stuff going on in this series. The fanbase has been demanding the team pivot to being bigger and tougher for years and now that they're facing a fast transition team, the lack of team speed becomes really apparent.

The Leafs have walked away or traded players that were fast or played fast like Hyman, Brown, Barrie (I get he sucked but I'm making a point here), Engvall, Mikeyhev, Kase, Kapanen, Johnsson, Moore, Gardiner, Sandin, Dermott, Kadri, Durzi, Moore etc.

And have replaced them with slow, grit and grind types: ROR, McCabe, Schenn, Brodie, Giordano. Lafferty and Bunting can both play fast so they're not included here but they were replacements for departed players worth mentioning. This is not to say those players all suck but you can't build a one dimensional offense and expect to go deep. Good teams have the ability to pivot from one style to another.

You can't cycle and grind your way to a deep run and you can't rely entirely on skill and speed either. There's has to be a healthy balance of both so you can pivot from one style of play to another when a team shuts you done. Florida is getting most of their goals in transition - not off the forecheck like people are saying. They are gladly conceding transition opportunities to us on the other hand because we only have 1 truly dangerous transition player - Nylander. Vs Boston it was the opposite, Florida was using their forecheck game to get past Boston's transition defense which was the best in the league during the season.

Dubas did what a lot of you guys demanded. He added size on the back end, gritty forwards, a defensively responsible two way center that we haven't had since Kadri etc. But it came at the expense of getting rid of any remotely dangerous transition player.

If any of you guys paid attention to the playoffs you'll note that Toronto has lost a lot of games over the last 4 years because of the inability to deal with counter attacks and an inability to pivot away from Plan A (their cycle game) to plan B (they've historically been an excellent transition team, they just don't like to play that way).

Vs Columbus - In games 3, 4 and 5, all but 3 of Columbus' goals came in transition. One was an empty netter and there were two PP goals I believe.

Vs Montreal - Montreal scored all their even strength goals in that series off counter rushes. This is the series btw that got Toronto to abandon their zone entry at all costs method of playing. If you recall, Keefe used to have a scheme where the Leafs would look to enter the zone with possession at all cost and if they couldn't they would regroup and try again. They stopped doing that after 2021.

Vs Tampa - Game 6 OT was the result of a transition counter rush, both game 7 goals by Nick Paul came in transition.

Vs Tampa - Ironically this is where we flipped the script on Tampa. Game 2 we played our A game. Game 3 the first two Leaf goals were in transition, the winning goal was off a cycle. Game 4 we scored the 4-2 goal in transition, 4-3 was a PP goal and 4-4 was a cycle goal. Goal 5 was on the PP.

Vs Florida - Florida in this series is killing us in transition, not on the forecheck. Review the games: Game 1 - 2 goals off a cycle, 1 breakaway and a 6v5 goal due to a delayed penalty. Game 2 - Florida scored 3 goals all in transition. Game 3 - Florida got 1 goal off a cycle, 1 on the PP - in transition and the winning goal came off of a dump in that never really changed possession so its a transition play.

I've been alluding to this many times over my time posting here but get shouted down by the Don Cherry wannabes who seem to think that every playoff loss was because of lack of grit.

The way Engvall was scapegoated here was a good example of it. Engvall was one of the few guys on the bottom six that could consistently enter the zone with puck possession. There is value skill as it prevents you from having to expend energy on a forecheck and allows you to set up your Ozone scheme. He also finished the year with 17 goals which is perfectly fine for a 4th liner. Would he have made a difference in this series? No, but he added a dimension to our bottom six that we no longer have. Lafferty is fast but doesn't have the puck possession ability in open ice like Engvall did. He uses his speed to get in on a forecheck. Instead of focusing on his weaknesses, I saw that he'd have good synergy with Engvall. Engvall could skate it into the zone but with Lafferty on his line could dump it in and have Lafferty deal with the physical side of the game which Engvall famously lacked. That's balance and synergy.

Instead you guys wanted bigger, stronger but slower.