Does dubas remain GM if the leafs get bounced by Florida?

[Mr Knies Guy]

This is my biggest gripe with the roster. It is still soft. Schenn and Acciari have helped. But its not enough.

They've definitely helped with hitting but the problem with both, particularly Acciari - as much as I love him being the only forward to finish hits - is that they have zero skill.

You look at TBay: Perry is still a force and has the IQ and skill to go with the grit, plus is a highly proven playoff performer; Colton, Paul, both have some skill, are gritty, mix it up and are pricks to play against and both can score dbl digits and occasionally break through on offence.

Us? We've got no offensive skill and very little defensive ability in the bottom six. Acciari- no skill at all; ZAR, Lafferty, Kampf complete ghosts and have no offensive ability. Kerfoot (thank god he and his 10 goals are gone after this sweep because aside from a lucky tip in OT, he's entirely invisible.
These guys are net negatives and have no ability to drive play in the O zone. You cannot win in the playoffs with bottom 6ers that can't ever drive play or cycles and are pathetic defensively and mostly do not forecheck. They are far too weak on the puck and aside from Kerfoot's and Kampf's underlying numbers, they can't play defense and they can't be relied upon to generate any offense. When your bottom 6 can't even dump and chase because they don't penetrate below the goalline due to a lack of speed, strength, and IQ, you're in big trouble.

And this is to say nothing of the three TikTok musketeers up front and captain monotone.

Dubas will never trade Matthews or Marner and already promised Nylander he wouldn't deal him either, so with this guy still helming the team, it'll just be run in back for the 7th time because they lucked into a round 1 win and he's too attached to the core.

 

[Lemontree]

Disclaimer: my thoughts are Dubas is a fraud and should have already been fired, frankly he never should have been hired.

Current Roster:

What he inherited: Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Reilly, Liligren, Woll

What Dubas has brought in around them:

Goalies:

Samsonov - made sense to sign him to a 1 year "show me" contract. Dubas was lucky thathe was available (see Murray below).

Murray - has been terrible and injury prone for years. This was Dubas "big swing" to upgrade the goaltending from the previous year (ie: the god awful Mrazek signing he did)

Dubas brought in the #1 goalie who had a solid regular season, has been average at best during the playoffs. The other goalie who is once again injured is taking up valuable cap space that could have been allocated to another area.

Dubas grade = C (a decent to good starter on a 1 year deal, a below average starter who defaulted to backup goalie who is always injured and taking precious cap space).


Defense:

Schenn - finally went and got a physical stay at home dman that fans have known was required for years.

Brodie - had been solid up till this season, he lacks of offense was annoying but made up for that based on his strong dzone play - not this case this season!

McCabe - has been a solid addition, brings an element of physicality that was needed but is a better skater than the typical hard hitting stay at home dman - does not provide offense.

Giordano - has played his heart out since getting here but the years of hard miles are showing and he is better suited as a 7th Dman at this point.

Holl - has been a 7th Dman (quality of player) his entire NHL career that Dubas has constantly brought back and even protected during the expansion draft. While never a good player he got completely embarrassed this post season.

Gustafsson - offense minded Dman that is extremely weak defensively. Seemingly brought in to be a depth dman.

Not at all an impressive group that Dubas is responsible for bringing in. In all his time as the GM he hasn't acquired anyone close to being a #2 or #3 dman. Muzzin is the best he brought in (I viewed him as a #4 - a very good one but shouldn't be the best dman on his pairing).

Dubas grade = D (at best 2 dman who are #4s, #6 dman and 3 #7/depth dmen).


Forwards:

Tavares - a lot of people complain about this.....not me. You have a chance to add a Tavares in Free Agency you take it...screw hindsight, you do this every day of the week. I don't give Dubas any credit or fault for this signing, every GM would have done it, Tavares wanted to come home.

O'Reilly - at this point in his career he looks to be a #3 C - a very good #3 that does the small things that matter in a 7 game series.

Accari - a solid bottom 6 player who plays with grit, this has been needed for years.

Jarnkrok - a decent bottom 6 winger who can produce some offense when playing with the big boys. When played in the bottom 6 he is invisible and does not add a speed or physical element that would help complement the core.

Kampf - a decent 4th line C however he also does not bring a speed a physical element that would help complement the core.

Kerfoot - has played on every line and continues to never find a home because he doesn't bring a single element to the game that helps complement the core. Doesn't have the offensive skill set to play top 6 and once again - another bottom 6 player that brings no physical element.

Lafferty - a replacement level player that has speed but doesn't seem capable of being able to forecheck.

Knies - first Dubas drafted player that actually provides value to the group. Has looked strong in his NHL/playoff debut. Not sure how high offensive upside he has but brings elements to the game (strong forecheck and board battle ability) that compliments the core.

Bunting - at times has been effective in a top 6 role. Seems to be in the right spot now playing on the 3rd line with O'Reilly. Brings a gritty element (net front) that brings a dimension that the core forward group lacks.

Aston-Reese - at times has looked to be a valuable 4th line player who plays a grinding game, other times looks completely disinterested in doing the little things that makes a quality 4th line player. Hovers between 4th liner and replacement level player.

Simmonds - seemed obvious the game had passed him by during 2020 season with the Leafs. Dubas saw something no one else did a signed him to a 2 year contract extension after the 2020 season - provides no on-ice value to the Toronto Maple Leafs. Some fans try to justify him as a "good leader to have around the room".

He was gifted 3 top 6 forwards. In his time as the Leafs GM he acquired 1 top 6 forward and has mainly shuffled around deck chairs in the bottom 6. To his credit this is the best 3rd line he has assembled to date.

Dubas grade = D (#2C, #3C, 4 good bottom six forwards, 5 replacement level type of players).



It is baffling to me that people worry what will become of the Leafs if Dubas isn't around. He has failed to find anything resembling stability in net,, failed to find Reilly a good D partner on the first pair (luckily Schenn has surpassed expectations and filled the role so far in the post season) and has built nothing more than an average 2nd D pairing. Continue to have 2 holes on the wing in the top 6 while wasting a ton of assets/draft capital since he arrived.

 

[Lemontree]

I feel like it might be an AA / Jays situation all over again where he builds a team with lots of talent, the fan base has reason to hope they have a championship team on their hand, they come up short, then the GM moves on to a team with a fully stacked cupboard and wins there.

Than we agree, only way Dubas wins a Stanley Cup is if someone builds the roster for him.

 

[centipede2233]

Disclaimer: my thoughts are Dubas is a fraud and should have already been fired, frankly he never should have been hired.

Current Roster:

What he inherited: Matthews, Marner, Nylander, Reilly, Liligren, Woll

What Dubas has brought in around them:

Goalies:

Samsonov - made since to sign him to a 1 year "show me" contract. Dubas was lucky thathe was available (see Murray below).

Murray - has been terrible and injury prone for years. This was Dubas "big swing" to upgrade the goaltending from the previous year (ie: the god awful Mrazek signing he did)

Dubas brought in the #1 goalie who had a solid regular season, has been average at best during the playoffs. The other goalie who is once again injured is taking up valuable cap space that could have been allocated to another area.

Dubas grade = C (a decent to good starter on a 1 year deal, a below average starter who defaulted to backup goalie who is always injured and taking precious cap space).


Defense:

Schenn - finally went and got a physical stay at home dman that fans have known was required for years.

Brodie - had been solid up till this season, he lacks of offense was annoying but made up for that based on his strong dzone play - not this case this season!

McCabe - has been a solid addition, brings an element of physicality that was needed but is a better skater than the typical hard hitting stay at home dman - does not provide offense.

Giordano - has played his heart out since getting here but the years of hard miles are showing and he is better suited as a 7th Dman at this point.

Holl - has been a 7th Dman (quality of player) his entire NHL career that Dubas has constantly brought back and even protected during the expansion draft. While never a good player he got completely embarrassed this post season.

Gustafsson - offense minded Dman that is extremely weak defensively. Seemingly brought in to be a depth dman.

Not at all an impressive group that Dubas is responsible for bringing in. In all his time as the GM he hasn't acquired anyone close to being a #2 or #3 dman. Muzzin is the best he brought in (I viewed him as a #4 - a very good one but shouldn't be the best dman on his pairing).

Dubas grade = D (at best 2 dman who are #4s, #6 dman and 3 #7/depth dmen).


Forwards:

Tavares - a lot of people complain about this.....not me. You have a chance to add a Tavares in Free Agency you take it...screw hindsight, you do this every day of the week. I don't give Dubas any credit or fault for this signing, every GM would have done it, Tavares wanted to come home.

O'Reilly - at this point in his career he looks to be a #3 C - a very good #3 that does the small things that matter in a 7 game series.

Accari - a solid bottom 6 player who plays with grit, this has been needed for years.

Jarnkrok - a decent bottom 6 winger who can produce some offense when playing with the big boys. When played in the bottom 6 he is invisible and does not add a speed or physical element that would help complement the core.

Kampf - a decent 4th line C however he also does not bring a speed a physical element that would help complement the core.

Kerfoot - has played on every line and continues to never find a home because he doesn't bring a single element to the game that helps complement the core. Doesn't have the offensive skill set to play top 6 and once again - another bottom 6 player that brings no physical element.

Lafferty - a replacement level player that has speed but doesn't seem capable of being able to forecheck.

Knies - first Dubas drafted player that actually provides value to the group. Has looked strong in his NHL/playoff debut. Not sure how high offensive upside he has but brings elements to the game (strong forecheck and board battle ability) that compliments the core.

Bunting - at times has been effective in a top 6 role. Seems to be in the right spot now playing on the 3rd line with O'Reilly. Brings a gritty element (net front) that brings a dimension that the core forward group lacks.

Aston-Reese - at times has looked to be a valuable 4th line player who plays a grinding game, other times looks completely disinterested in doing the little things that makes a quality 4th line player. Hovers between 4th liner and replacement level player.

Simmonds - seemed obvious the game had passed him by during 2020 season with the Leafs. Dubas saw something no one else did a signed him to a 2 year contract extension after the 2020 season - provides no on-ice value to the Toronto Maple Leafs. Some fans try to justify him as a "good leader to have around the room".

He was gifted 3 top 6 forwards. In his time as the Leafs GM he acquired 1 top 6 forward and has mainly shuffled around deck chairs in the bottom 6. To his credit this is the best 3rd line he has assembled to date.

Dubas grade = D (#2C, #3C, 4 good bottom six forwards, 5 replacement level type of players).



It is baffling to me that people worry what will become of the Leafs if Dubas isn't around. He has failed to find anything resembling stability in net,, failed to find Reilly a good D partner on the first pair (luckily Schenn has surpassed expectations and filled the role so far in the post season) and has built nothing more than an average 2nd D pairing. Continue to have 2 holes on the wing in the top 6 while wasting a ton of assets/draft capital since he arrived.

Well said. A lot of dubas supporters say “he built a great team”….how?! All the best players were here already aside from taveras, and taveras would have signed here regardless of who the GM was. It’s ridiculous some people still support dubas as a gm.

 

[Goose]

Than we agree, only way Dubas wins a Stanley Cup is if someone builds the roster for him.

I'm not a believer that GMs can build a "championship" team.

I think the best you can do is build a team that has a strong chance, which he's done. He's burned resources and future capital to do so, however.

I don't have a clue whether it's the right thing to keep him or let him go, but I feel like he used up the available resources in Toronto to create a strong team and because he's done that, someone will give him a chance to do it again.

 

[Lemontree]

I'm not a believer that GMs can build a "championship" team.

I think the best you can do is build a team that has a strong chance, which he's done. He's burned resources and future capital to do so, however.

I don't have a clue whether it's the right thing to keep him or let him go, but I feel like he used up the available resources in Toronto to create a strong team and because he's done that, someone will give him a chance to do it again.

I'm not sure understand the bolded. Although no 2 championship teams are the exact same, a lot of them share similarities and traits that are required to play for and win a championship. If you are saying that it isn't an exact science than I agree with that however the GM builds a roster that contains elements that are required to win.

 

[Stephen]

Though Dubas' can fairly point out he didn't hire Babcock and probably wouldn't have if he had been in charge at the time.

The accountability for the Babs decision lies with Shanny who hired him to beging with then approved the firing

I wasn't a massive Babcock fan back in the day, but looking back, I can't say the issues he identified with this group were wrong and the direction he wanted to go in seems like where they're going anyway under Keefe...

Babcock was a meanie for sure, but I'm also not sure the peace collective vibes they've built the culture on is very typical of a hockey team either. For a team that seems to struggle with starting on time, going full throttle in the big moments, the killer instinct, all those Friday Night Lights themes... Babcock wasn't exactly a solution, but I never thought he was The Problem.

 

[Stephen]

I'm not a believer that GMs can build a "championship" team.

I think the best you can do is build a team that has a strong chance, which he's done. He's burned resources and future capital to do so, however.

I don't have a clue whether it's the right thing to keep him or let him go, but I feel like he used up the available resources in Toronto to create a strong team and because he's done that, someone will give him a chance to do it again.

A lot of championship programs are built on the foundations of the previous GM. Look at the lineage of the cup wins in Boston, Chicago, Los Angeles, Pittsburgh, Tampa. You always had a GM that took the licks driving a team into the ditch and accumulating/developing raw talent, and a clean up GM to mold it all into a contender-then-champion.

Not exactly sure where you'd put Dubas on the curve, but he does seem to be evolving as a GM and building a better balance to his roster. If he's still here in 2 years, it would be interesting to see what he does once the Tavares deal runs out. I think that will be a new lease on life for the organization.

 

[Menzinger]

I wasn't a massive Babcock fan back in the day, but looking back, I can't say the issues he identified with this group were wrong and the direction he wanted to go in seems like where they're going anyway under Keefe...

Babcock was a meanie for sure, but I'm also not sure the peace collective vibes they've built the culture on is very typical of a hockey team either. For a team that seems to struggle with starting on time, going full throttle in the big moments, the killer instinct, all those Friday Night Lights themes... Babcock wasn't exactly a solution, but I never thought he was The Problem.

Babcock definitely wasn't wrong about identifying on ice issues. Some of his decisions, like not wanting to ever try Matthews and Marner together were questionable, but every coach will have those quirks.

But that's only part of a coach's job at that level - he was a complete flop beyond the bench. He made his own bed playing those mind games with Marner and the dumb stuff he pulled with Spezza.

Biggest problem imo was Shanahan hiring a coach before he picked his long term GM.

 

[Stephen]

Babcock definitely wasn't wrong about identifying on ice issues. Some of his decisions, like not wanting to ever try Matthews and Marner together were questionable, but every coach will have those quirks.

But that's only part of a coach's job at that level - he was a complete flop beyond the bench. He made his own bed playing those mind games with Marner and the dumb stuff he pulled with Spezza.

Biggest problem imo was Shanahan hiring a coach before he picked his long term GM.

I don't mind the idea of a coach who can press buttons and play mind games, be more of a manipulator and be toxic at times. Obviously as a fan I don't have to work with someone like that every day, but just following the history of sports you have enough examples of hard-o coaches and star players who had great success and rocky relationships. Like anything though, there's a balance and results matter.

I just find this team is always so emotionally flat in the absence of adversity. It's like they need someone to manufacture some more tension in the room to get themselves going.

 

[Goose]

I'm not sure understand the bolded. Although no 2 championship teams are the exact same, a lot of them share similarities and traits that are required to play for and win a championship. If you are saying that it isn't an exact science than I agree with that however the GM builds a roster that contains elements that are required to win.

I'd quibble with the word choice "required". I'd say there are elements that increase your chances, which is all very subjective to evaluate beyond things like good goaltending, good defense, some goal scorers, etc.

I think there's just so much puck luck and injury-related luck and momentum events that drive the outcome.

I.e. If you play this year's tournament with the same 16 teams 100 times, it means each team is supposed to win 6 times statistically, I don't believe there's some magical team that wins 25 times because they have all the right elements. Maybe once in a generation a team comes along that can do that, but those teams are outliers (92 Pengs, 97 Wings).

I think maybe a team like the Bruins from this year win it twice or so as many times as they're supposed to, say 10-15 times.

You go with a GM that puts you in a position to have a chance, which Dubas has done. If I'm following through with my example, I think the Leafs are an above-average playoff team, so they'd be an 8/100 team let's say for arguments sake. Which doesn't sound like much, but that's 33% more likely to win the cup than the average team.

I think the average fan (not saying you specifically, just a general comment) grossly underestimates how difficult it is to win a cup in a 32-team league, and what's reasonable to expect from GMs (and coaches and players to boot).

Teams are supposed to win 3 cups per century now. In today's NHL, you're SUPPOSED to go 30+ years between cups if you're an average franchise.

 

[TheShape]

Upper management failed to find a balance. Babcock the authoritarian was too far one way and Keefe being more of a pushover is too far the other.

As for Dubas, he finds a job within 5 minutes of being unemployed. With that said, I'm not attached to any player or management figure in this organization either. Just overall weird vibes with this group.

 

[Lemontree]

I think the average fan (not saying you specifically, just a general comment) grossly underestimates how difficult it is to win a cup in a 32-team league, and what's reasonable to expect from GMs (and coaches and players to boot).

Of course it is difficult however if you look at the remaining 8 playoff teams, you will find Vegas and Seattle among them, very much still expansion teams. Perhaps getting to the 2nd round is viewed far too favorably to Dubas as to the "good job" he has done. Dubas was given some of the most difficult things to acquire (#1 C, #1 W, #1 Dman, #2 winger - could be argued is a #1 winger). Vegas and Seattle didn't start with any of these and here they are.

 

[Antropovsky]

Pretty sure that under Keefe, the leafs have the majority of the time played from behind.

 

[Goose]

Of course it is difficult however if you look at the remaining 8 playoff teams, you will find Vegas and Seattle among them, very much still expansion teams. Perhaps getting to the 2nd round is viewed far too favorably to Dubas as to the "good job" he has done. Dubas was given some of the most difficult things to acquire (#1 C, #1 W, #1 Dman, #2 winger - could be argued is a #1 winger). Vegas and Seattle didn't start with any of these and here they are.

I'd argue there's so much parity in the league that Vegas and Seattle in the second round (and the Bruins not) just goes to show that playoff success has more to do with chance/circumstance in a max 7-game sample size than it has to do with having the "right" elements.

If you build a roster that coasts to the playoffs and that everyone agrees has a decent shot at a deep run, like the Leafs have over the past couple of years, I personally don't think you can do more than that as a GM.

I absolutely think you can judge a GM on how much they gave up to get to that point and how much of their future they've mortgaged.

 

[57 Years No Cup]

I think our offseason would be less dramatic than that. You get Kyle Dubas signed to a new contract and road map what the next 5 years might look like. I think you get that commitment from Matthews July 1 and make level headed decisions on Marner and Nylander on cost benefit and not emotional mandating.

Matthews committed, minus some or all of the rest of the Big 3 are palatable for me as the most extreme version of a retool.

No Matthews, but Tavares, Marner, Nylander staying, I would lean towards scorching the earth. I don't want to build a team around Marner and Nylander as the foundation. If that makes sense.

You lost me after "you get Kyle Dubas signed to a new contract...".

 

[PromisedLand]

Anybody know this guy? I want him to go back in time and stop a catastrophe also known as Shanahan making dubas the gm. better yet stop shanahan from meeting dubas at all.

 

[PromisedLand]

I don't mind the idea of a coach who can press buttons and play mind games, be more of a manipulator and be toxic at times. Obviously as a fan I don't have to work with someone like that every day, but just following the history of sports you have enough examples of hard-o coaches and star players who had great success and rocky relationships. Like anything though, there's a balance and results matter.

I just find this team is always so emotionally flat in the absence of adversity. It's like they need someone to manufacture some more tension in the room to get themselves going.

adversity is part of life, you fight through it and move forward. The entitlement culture that is fostered by this management group will only create losers.

Little adversity and they throw a mental hissy fit and crumble like a cheap tent. You need a villain to get you pissed a bit before a game or at least be motivated a bit.

It was the worst time the day shanahan met dubas and after that it has been nothing but complacency, patting their own backs and absolute hubris nothing else

 

[sunstersun]

I can't either....I doubt he stays if Keefe is forced out by MLSE. I think they are a package deal and if he doesn't realize that this is all too much for Keefe...then let Dubas follow Keefe out the door. If Dubas does good things as GM but at the same time undermines the team with a subpar coach...what can you say about him?

90% of the job in any leadership role in anyone profession is hiring the correct person.


If we fail on our face this series, we hired the wrong HC, therefore we hired the wrong GM.

 

[Racer88]

I'd argue there's so much parity in the league that Vegas and Seattle in the second round (and the Bruins not) just goes to show that playoff success has more to do with chance/circumstance in a max 7-game sample size than it has to do with having the "right" elements.

If you build a roster that coasts to the playoffs and that everyone agrees has a decent shot at a deep run, like the Leafs have over the past couple of years, I personally don't think you can do more than that as a GM.

I absolutely think you can judge a GM on how much they gave up to get to that point and how much of their future they've mortgaged.

I wasn't a massive Babcock fan back in the day, but looking back, I can't say the issues he identified with this group were wrong and the direction he wanted to go in seems like where they're going anyway under Keefe...

Babcock was a meanie for sure, but I'm also not sure the peace collective vibes they've built the culture on is very typical of a hockey team either. For a team that seems to struggle with starting on time, going full throttle in the big moments, the killer instinct, all those Friday Night Lights themes... Babcock wasn't exactly a solution, but I never thought he was The Problem.

Babcock was absolutely right about the issues but he went about it wrong.

 

[NVious]

Doesn't matter either way, the core of Matthews/Nylander/Marner/Tavares and Rielly can go head to head with the best 5 on any team. They've been butter soft as a whole and people think adding some 4d or 3c that are physical and intimdating makes a diff? Lmao give me a break, how about your STARS PERFORM like STARS?

Drai and McDavid are about to set playoff records meanwhile these guys want a pat on the back for going ppg. Dubas could've made better moves and I couldn't care less about him or Keefe, but if they don't beat Florida I couldn't care less to see any of the 5 ever again.

Why can't Matthews go gpg in the playoffs? Why can't Mitch put up a series of 2ppg? Why doesn't Nylander have any fight in him?

The bottom line is this team should've had deep runs, they should've been contending for a cup, but they put the most pathetic decade of playoff performances together and now we're here getting owned by an 8 seed.

This is it for the core for me (same core that lost to the Zamboni driver btw).

 

[BallardEra]

I think Dubas stays but Keefe goes if Leafs get bounced by Florida.

 

[ToneDog]

Of course it is difficult however if you look at the remaining 8 playoff teams, you will find Vegas and Seattle among them, very much still expansion teams. Perhaps getting to the 2nd round is viewed far too favorably to Dubas as to the "good job" he has done. Dubas was given some of the most difficult things to acquire (#1 C, #1 W, #1 Dman, #2 winger - could be argued is a #1 winger). Vegas and Seattle didn't start with any of these and here they are.

Vegas and Seattle had cap space. Dubas immediately capped himself out. Look at Carolina, enough cap space to acquire Burns and Patches for nothing and had plenty of cap space at the TDL. Unfortunately, they are cheap and did not add much. Imagine Dubas trying to win in Carolina.

 

[justashadowof]

Babcock isn't quite the personality this team needs either. Babcock is not exactly the character he's being portrayed as. He is the passive aggressive sort as far as I'm concerned. That Marner thing and the Spezza thing were passive aggressive actions of doing this one thing to a 2nd party to irk a 3rd party. Babcock's teams don't play some rough and tumble game, he doesn't even seem to believe in the enforcer type of player. Otherwise he's more of teach-the-player-a-lesson or see-how-far-I-can-push-this-player-until-he-breaks type. Babcock's hockey philosophy ain't far off from Kyle Dubas. The two just got in a power struggle that Babcock was bound to lose as he wasn't sitting next the president of the club every night.

P.S. How come I haven't been seeing Shanahan in the pressbox with Dubas in these playoffs?

 

[ToneDog]

Babcock isn't quite the personality this team needs either. Babcock is not exactly the character he's being portrayed as. He is the passive aggressive sort as far as I'm concerned. That Marner thing and the Spezza thing were passive aggressive actions of doing this one thing to a 2nd party to irk a 3rd party. Babcock's teams don't play some rough and tumble game, he doesn't even seem to believe in the enforcer type of player. Otherwise he's more of teach-the-player-a-lesson or see-how-far-I-can-push-this-player-until-he-breaks type. Babcock's hockey philosophy ain't far off from Kyle Dubas. The two just got in a power struggle that Babcock was bound to lose as he wasn't sitting next the president of the club every night.

P.S. How come I haven't been seeing Shanahan in the pressbox with Dubas in these playoffs?

Rumours are there is a power struggle between the two. My theory is he is distancing himself from Dubas so Dubas takes the fall if they lose to Florida. My guess is Shanny stays because he has years remaining on his contract. Dubas will take the fall.