Do you want Ovechkin to break Gretzky's goal record?

[Rorschach]

Gretzky at the top feels better than Ovechkin at the top.
Gretz should always be number one.

Well put.

 

[WingsFan95]

OV is already the greatest goal scorer to play in the NHL

Most Rockets in history gets him that honour

Gretzky would not be putting 70 goals in current NHL era. Hed be a 50-60 goal and 120 assist guy

Gretzky would also need to bulk up. Otherwise he wouldn't last 15 seasons or have extended period of dominance.

Yeah, 9th or 10th is clearly ridiculous. No way players like Espo or Jagr rank ahead of him.

But it's as simple as that either. There were 620 players in the NHL in 83-84 with virtually no Russians or Americans, there were 973 in 07-08. Point being the talent pool Ovi competed against was much larger. Gretzky also doesn't have the record for greatest margin, that's Hull 90-91 when he scored 86 and the next best had 51.

Esposito lead the league 6 times and was 2nd to Bobby Hull another year so I certainly think he has a case over Gretz for goal scoring. But the list gets thin. Do you consider guys who were more consistent like maybe Bossy? It's hard right?

Bobby Hull, Ovechkin, Lemieux are clear for me and I think most. Then it goes Esposito for peak and Howe/Richard. I get how both Howe/Richard can be underrated for the 6 team era but just look at the following insanity:

Howe League Lead x5 (tied with Gretz), 2nd x5 (ahead), 3rd x2 for a total 12 seasons in Top 3
Richard League Lead x5 (tied with Gretz), 2nd x3 (ahead, 3rd x1 for a total 9 seasons in Top 3, 12 in Top 5

Gretzky in the NHL actually was "only" Top 5 a collective 8 times having the 5 league leads plus two 4th and a 5th place finish.

So I certainly don't think it's outlandish to have the 6 aforementioned players ahead of him. That places him 7th. Then of course you have Mike Bossy who didn't have the peak of Gretzky and compared to other guys "only" two league leads which is below Bure, however how can anyone ignore 9 consecutive 50 goal seasons in any era for consistency?

1st x2
2nd x3
3rd x2
5th
7th

The 7th place saw him 5 from 2nd and 3 from 3rd. Gretzky ran away that year and I can understand people putting Bossy behind but what HAS going for him is that stellar consistency again having more Top 3 finishes of 7 than Gretzky who had 5 which just happened to all be league leads.

So in my mind I think Gretzky is between 7-8th in terms of pure goal scoring historically. Sure anyone could say he COULD have ran away with it, but then we could all say Lemieux COULD have broken the career record if he hadn't retired that 2nd time (nevermind everything else).

Jagr for argument's sake is quite unreal and his career numbers would be greatly helped without 2 lockouts and 3 years in KHL (even if some people argue it prolonged his career) as I don't think it's a stretch to imagine 130 goals in 5 years from him. But he's got a bit of a Bossy counter in not being THE GUY (ever in this case) but a highlight:

2nd x4
3rd
4th

So I mean, I guess he has same Top 3 finishes as Gretz (lmao) but yeah no, just not good enough.

 

[Mr Positive]

Oilers fan saying Ovie

Love Gretz but records were made to be broken

Shame that Ovie doesn't have it anymore

 

[wetcoast]

Nevermind Gretzky being on more stacked teams in higher scoring era.

Sure it was a higher scoring era but part of that was BECAUSE of Wayne Gretzky and the stacked teams comment is laughable, those teams were "stacked" because Wayne was the best player, it's like saying the Bruin teams Orr played with were stacked like Orr wasn't the absolute best player in the league or anything.

Just amazing what some people will say at times.

 

[MacMacandBarbie]

Would be fitting for the best goal scorer of all time sans Mario to have the record. So yes.

 

[JTToilinginToronto]

I'm indifferent. Don't really have a horse in this race.

Let the dominoes fall where they fall.

 

[Rorschach]

I don’t want any of Gretzky’s best records to ever be broken while he’s alive.

 

[Hanji]

Gretzky at the top feels better than Ovechkin at the top.
Gretz should always be number one.

Why? Apart from Gretzky being a Canadian cultural icon, there’s no reason to be emotionally invested in him being #1.

 

[Zine]

Why? Apart from Gretzky being a Canadian cultural icon, there’s no reason to be emotionally invested in him being #1.

Several reasons I can think of...... Nationalism. Nostalgia. Double standards.

 

[wetcoast]

Several reasons I can think of...... Nationalism. Nostalgia. Double standards.

How about Gretzky being the greatest player of all time and an all around class act?

Gretzky is arguably one of the classiest and best ambassadors for hockey ever and has zero baggage.

People can have an opinion on who they want to hold the record but Gretzky as a player and as a person isn't nostalgic or nationalist at all.

 

[WingsFan95]

Sure it was a higher scoring era but part of that was BECAUSE of Wayne Gretzky and the stacked teams comment is laughable, those teams were "stacked" because Wayne was the best player, it's like saying the Bruin teams Orr played with were stacked like Orr wasn't the absolute best player in the league or anything.

Just amazing what some people will say at times.

Okay but everyone saw what Lemieux did on some trash teams right?

You can't do it alone. The Neeley/Bourque Bruins needed that extra roster round out too.

Overall I don't see how anyone can argue against Ovechkin leading the league in goals 9 freaking times to Wayne not only 5 but then no 2nd or 3rd finishes to pad that out. And I'd bring up Bobby Hull and Howe as well.

I think most here will agree Lemieux is ahead as well yes?

 

[Midnight Judges]

Ovi shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence as Gretzky. Did people forget he spent the better part of his career disregarding the defensive end completely?

Are you trying to imply Gretzky was playing lots of defense?

 

[Luigi Lemieux]

If Lemieux is the best, then no level of competition would have prevented him from performing the best of his era. Yet he objectively didn't.

Again, Lemieux has neither highest goal total, nor the highest adjusted goal total, nor the highest GPG, nor the highest adjusted GPG season of his own era.

The best goal scorer is not going to go without any of these things. Ovechkin has them all. Lemieux has none.

The thing is, Lemieux was also the best playmaker in the league, whereas that part of Ovechkins game doesn't even exist. Lemieux is the more skilled goal scorer - can't even imagine the crazy numbers if he devoted himself to only scoring goals like Ovechkin does.

 

[Zine]

How about Gretzky being the greatest player of all time and an all around class act?

Gretzky is arguably one of the classiest and best ambassadors for hockey ever and has zero baggage.

People can have an opinion on who they want to hold the record but Gretzky as a player and as a person isn't nostalgic or nationalist at all.

Gretzky is a class act?

Not to get overly political, but certain reasons why people dislike Ovechkin also apply to Gretzky. Perhaps you should look into Gretzky's history of publicly and overtly supporting warmongers and illegal actions that resulted in copious amounts of death and human misery.

This is what I mean by double standards.

 

[Midnight Judges]

But Ovechkin’s single season of 65 goals adjusts .002 better than any of Lemieux’s so Lemieux has no case at all. Plus Lemieux quit before he could reach Gretzky’s 92 goal record!

Indeed, if Lemieux is the best ever, then he ought to have best ever type stats. How is this controversial? It seems like logic gets thrown out the window around here where Ovechkin is concerned.

Mario Lemieux does not have the highest single season goal total of his own era. Nor does he have the best single season GPG of his era. Nor does he have either of the adjusted versions of those stats for his own era. So even when we account for Lemieux's lack of durability (and quitting), he still doesn't have the best goal scoring peak of his own era, let alone of all time.

The 'best ever' really ought to lead those sorts of stats. I really don't see how a rationale person could disagree with that.

The one area Lemieux does have as a goal scorer is in the playoffs. His case really rests entirely on that.

 

[Midnight Judges]

The thing is, Lemieux was also the best playmaker in the league, whereas that part of Ovechkins game doesn't even exist.

Ovechkin has a hundred more assists than Crosby has goals.

I look forward to you claiming Crosby's goal scoring "doesn't even exist."

Ovechkin is top 10 in assists during his era. Out of thousands of players, Ovechkin is 45th all time in adjusted assists.

I don't know what Ovechkin does to make people say blatantly false things, but it's apparently his superpower.

I guess according you this isn't a nice pass by Ovechkin - because it didn't happen?



This too did not happen. It's fake video footage that "doesn't even exist":



Now, you could have made a reasonable point that Lemieux's playmaking makes him the far superior player. But I guess lying won the day in your brain.

 

[wetcoast]

Gretzky is a class act?

Not to get overly political, but certain reasons why people dislike Ovechkin also apply to Gretzky. Perhaps you should look into Gretzky's history of publicly and overtly supporting warmongers and illegal actions that resulted in copious amounts of death and human misery.

This is what I mean by double standards.

Man the good old false equvilancy or what not but then again not everyone is free to express their views.

That being said let's stick to hockey and not poison the thread.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Ovechkin has a hundred more assists than Crosby has goals.

I look forward to you claiming Crosby's goal scoring "doesn't even exist."

Ovechkin is top 10 in assists during his era. Out of thousands of players, Ovechkin is 45th all time in adjusted assists.

I don't know what Ovechkin does to make people say blatantly false things, but it's apparently his superpower.

Now, you could have made a reasonable point that Lemieux's playmaking makes him the far superior player. But I guess lying won the day in your brain.

Dude don't compare ovechkin to crosby. Crosby is a much better all around offensive player than ovechkin and its not debatable

 

[Midnight Judges]

Dude don't compare ovechkin to crosby. Crosby is a much better all around offensive player than ovechkin and its not debatable

Ovechkin has almost 50% more goals than Crosby in the same number of seasons.

Ovechkin is very obviously the much better all around offensive player.

 

[Zine]

Man the good old false equvilancy or what but then again not everyone is free to express their views.

How is it a false equivalency?

It's a blatant double standard.

 

[wetcoast]

How is it a false equivalency?

It's a blatant double standard.

I'll prvt message you as to why when I have time it's not for the boards.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

Ovechkin has almost 50% more goals than Crosby in the same number of seasons.

Ovechkin is very obviously the much better all around offensive player.

Lol no that illustrates he's a better goal scorer. Crosby has over 30 more points in almost 200 less games. And a +222 for his career compared to a +64 for ovechkin which is a huge difference. Crosby far away better at everything besides goal scoring to the point its not even close

 

[Midnight Judges]

Lol no that illustrates he's a better goal scorer.

No. It illustrates that Ovechkin is light years ahead of Crosby as a goal scorer. Absolutely mops the floor with him.

 

[Nathaniel Skywalker]

No. It illustrates that Ovechkin is light years ahead of Crosby as a goal scorer. Absolutely mops the floor with him.

Yes don't think anyone has ever argued Crosby to be a better goal scorer. But Crosby wipes the floor with ovechkin overall offensively. While also being light years ahead of him with a 200 foot game

 

[Zine]

I'll prvt message you as to why when I have time it's not for the boards.

It's for the boards if its hockey related....which this is. Just like Ovechkin, Gretzky used his hockey celebrity to promote some very heinous actions.

The hockey community, particularly in NA, intentionally overlook this with Wayne while simultaneously shitting on Ovechkin for it.

This is done to manufacture an image for a cultural hockey icon, which subsequently brings us to the topic of nationalism.