Do you want Ovechkin to break Gretzky's goal record?

[wetcoast]

No, VsX 7 is just a common denominator used to look at what has often been a players prime number of years across eras.

sure I know what it is but it doesn't adjust for individual seasons instead each players prime VsX7 is compared as equal in value and doesn't do any adjustment to scoring stats as that's not it's intended purpose.

imo, VsX is still better to compare between years than adjusting by average but there is still additional context to keep in mind.

They are really measuring different things and both are useful for different reasons.

The organ of this side thread is comparing counting stats to adjusted stats not every metric that is out there better or worse, as each different metric is designed to do different things.

 

[Leonardo87]

Folks, can we please leave the politics out of the discussion, thanks.

 

[Devilsfan2326]

If I "want" him to just comes down to who I like more, or some romanticizing of old blood vs. new blood. I don't know them. I don't know who they are off-script. Maybe one of the two is a little bolder with his words, or lack of words. How come there hasn't been a single "I will break you" meme made for the Russian fella who's made it his goal?

 

[DRW895]

Eearlier Ovechkin according to "some person":
a) gonna finish like Lindros - you know answer
b) gonna retire without Lord Stanley Cup - you know answer
c) never scored 50 again after 2010 - you know answer
d) gonna fall of the cliff after 30 - only 1 really average season 2016/17 and then glorious 2017/18 and got Rocket twice after 2018
e) gonna dissapear after 35 - oldest 50 goal season ever and the most goals for 37 years old player.
After being wrong so many times they simply can`t stop again - so it will be great, if/when they catch #895 live.
But now Ovechkin needs real support from Capitals Franshise, not cheap version of Tony Robins instead of coach (maybe Leonsis should hire Gallan) and 1-st line centre who can record more assists than Vlad Namestnikov during 2,5 mont since season started (strome fails).
Ovechkin probably helps more Strome with goals this year + referee should stop canceling his goals due to ridicolous things.
Tough moment not the end. Maybe even with this horrible season next in age 39+ will be much better. Who knows. Maybe he wake ups and finish THIS season with 35+ goals. Regular season doesn`t end with holiday break.
P.S. Other people like to mention Joe Pavelski from time to time - I guess and they are wrong.
Joe never hits 30 goals in Stars, maybe this season still not sure.
Moreover Pavelski failed his first regular season there 2019/20 with less than 0,5 ppg 31 in 67. What did Ovechkin in the same season? Do you remember?
Last not least - common sence tells that Pavelski should be compared with famous players from 2003 draft, especially when/if he become highest scoring player from his draft. But Bergeron, Gezlaf, E, Staal retired and it doesn`t impress? No problem, we can compare Pavelski with his 2 highly payed much younger teammates (Benn and Seguin) and give him some thumbs. This is unique player, but he has nothing with Ovechkin`s case.

 

[Xspyrit]

you’re right…, Jagr, who never once led the league in goals, is a better goal scorer than a guy who did it numerous times while also having the two highest goal scoring seasons of all time

What a ridiculous take.

Dear lords

I mentioned 3 times on this page 6 (and twice in the post you quoted) that Jagr was a memory mistake and you come back with this AGAIN? Sigh

Listen, if you're not capable of reading more than 3 words, don't even bother debating with me, I have no time for this type of futility. My "ridiculous take" is obviously purely mathematical but I'm sure you already figured it out... or not

Everyone here has heard of them, but many have also come to realize how poorly adjusting by average scoring works to do the job.

Can't put the image here for some reason

Garder les buts dans la LNH, ça fait très mal

BILLET - Il se marque de moins en moins de buts dans la LNH. Inquiétés par cette tendance, les dirigeants de la ligue se sont entendus, il y a deux semaines, pour réduire l'équipement des gardiens à compter de la saison 2016-2017.

ici.radio-canada.ca

Help me understand the logic:

• Gretzky scored more goals than Hull by a wide margin (894-741)
• We can't attribute that to longevity, since Gretzky scored more goals per game (0.60 vs 0.58). Yes, it's close, but Gretzky is still ahead, and he maintained that higher average over an extra 200+ games.
• Gretzky led the league in goals more often (5 times vs 3 times)
• Gretzky beat Hull's career high in goals twice
• It's surprisingly close if we're counting number of 70 goal seasons (it's only 4-3 for Gretzky), but Gretzky pulls ahead if we're looking at number of 50 goal seasons (9-5)
• It's close if we're looking at number of years in the top ten (it's only 9-8 for Gretzky), but Gretzky is ahead by a wide margin if we're looking at years in the top five (8-4)
• In the playoffs, Gretzky scored more goals (122-103), more goals per game (0.59 vs 0.51) and tied/exceeded Hull's career high three times
• Gretzky did all this while (generally) looking to pass first. When Hull was scoring 70+ goals, he had 45, 41 and 39 assists. When Gretzky scoring 70+ goals, he had 135, 125, 120 and 118 assists.

If we use adjusted stats from hockey-reference.com, Gretzky still has more goals (758-738). And none of the "relative" metrics would change (Gretzky would still be up 5-3 in goal scoring titles, he's still up 8-4 in years in the top five, etc). Hull would pull ahead in terms of adjusted goals per game, but you'd have to really emphasize that one statistic, given that Gretzky is ahead in every other category.

Yes but he was not the best goal scorer, he was the best playmaker of all time. And "adjusted goals per game" is not ONE statistic, it is THE lone statistic I am using to assess goal scoring ability with stats. So all the other things you are saying are cool but who scored more goals per game era adjusted? Alex Ovechkin, Mario Lemieux and Maurice Richard. And it looks like Matthews wants to be in there with that impressive 0.73 GPG so far

 

[KrisLetAngry]

I voted yes

Always down to see records broken.

 

[abo9]

Yes. A little of a selfish reason, but it would be so cool to see a player I grew up watching beat a legit record.

 

[Nate070]

As someone said, records are meant to be broken. It's good for the league. It's good for the game.

Sure but not by that punk

 

[nbwingsfan]

Dear lords

I mentioned 3 times on this page 6 (and twice in the post you quoted) that Jagr was a memory mistake and you come back with this AGAIN? Sigh

Listen, if you're not capable of reading more than 3 words, don't even bother debating with me, I have no time for this type of futility. My "ridiculous take" is obviously purely mathematical but I'm sure you already figured it out... or not



Can't put the image here for some reason

Garder les buts dans la LNH, ça fait très mal

BILLET - Il se marque de moins en moins de buts dans la LNH. Inquiétés par cette tendance, les dirigeants de la ligue se sont entendus, il y a deux semaines, pour réduire l'équipement des gardiens à compter de la saison 2016-2017.

ici.radio-canada.ca

Yes but he was not the best goal scorer, he was the best playmaker of all time. And "adjusted goals per game" is not ONE statistic, it is THE lone statistic I am using to assess goal scoring ability with stats. So all the other things you are saying are cool but who scored more goals per game era adjusted? Alex Ovechkin, Mario Lemieux and Maurice Richard. And it looks like Matthews wants to be in there with that impressive 0.73 GPG so far

Goals per game over a CAREER is a pretty ridiculous way to be looking at who was the best goal scorer of all time considering Gretzky was a shell of himself later in his career

 

[DowJones]

A couple of years ago I rooted for him to break it but that changed pretty quickly.

 

[Xspyrit]

Goals per game over a CAREER is a pretty ridiculous way to be looking at who was the best goal scorer of all time considering Gretzky was a shell of himself later in his career

ok so that argument works only for Gretzky but not all the others, like Mario Lemieux for example who battled cancer

Talking about ridiculous takes...

 

[LOFIN]

No, for non-hockey reasons. If it was someone elsie chasing the record, yes.

 

[nbwingsfan]

ok so that argument works only for Gretzky but not all the others, like Mario Lemieux for example who battled cancer

Talking about ridiculous takes...

If Ovi continued to play for let’s for 4 more seasons only scoring 10 or so goals a season dropping his career averages would you rate him lower in your standings as a goal scorer?

 

[Midnight Judges]

My first thought is that if Ovi sticks around for the goal scoring record his adjusted GPG could easily drop to 5th place.

Placing a guy with a .68 adj GPG over 1373 games played behind a guy with a .67 adj GPG over 915 games isn't equitable.

 

[Darcy Tucker]

He may have to pack it in after this season. Real talk. Forget the record , preserve the legacy.

 

[34]

Yes, I want him to beat Gretzky.

 

[Midnight Judges]

Goals per game over a CAREER is a pretty ridiculous way to be looking at who was the best goal scorer of all time considering Gretzky was a shell of himself later in his career

Indeed, it actually punishes longevity whereas in real life longevity is a positive attribute.

Gretzky's later years don't take away from his goal scoring exploits in his earlier years, and yet looking at career GPG relative to a player who contributed significantly fewer games played would give that misleading impression.

Any poster who uses something like that to downplay Gretzky would have to really want it to be true.

 

[Midnight Judges]

He may have to pack it in after this season. Real talk. Forget the record , preserve the legacy.

I don't see how quitting preserves anything.

Ovechkin could take a dump at center ice after every face-off and he's still the greatest goal scorer ever. He's already achieved it. Nothing erases what has already happened.

 

[Colorado Avalanche]

Folks, can we please leave the politics out of the discussion, thanks.

Errrr. That's basically what's the question about, at least to me.

For hockey yes, politically I would be fine with no.

 

[Scandale du Jour]

I voted no because he voted he played his entire team on a rival... but it would be cool and a good marketing opportunity for the NHL. Heck, they already have fumbled the ball by not marketing it, IMO.

 

[the valiant effort]

I was certain he would last spring, but this season's struggles obviously add mostly doubt. I do hope he can do it, and do it while the Caps play meaningful hockey. Hanging on by a thread with a bad team would make the chase far, far less interesting.

 

[tapi]

If he truly was the best goal scorer of all time (giving some special prominence to longevity) he would deserve it, but there are a bunch of players such as ofc Gretzky, Mario, and yes, Matthews, who by all metrics were / are the more effective goal scorers. So Ovi's decline and falling just short are very just in the historic scheme of things.

 

[Xspyrit]

If Ovi continued to play for let’s for 4 more seasons only scoring 10 or so goals a season dropping his career averages would you rate him lower in your standings as a goal scorer?

Gretzky was 37 y/o when he played his last season. Ovechkin is 38 y/o RIGHT NOW.

Do you even understand your own arguments?

I have disqualified these guys for this exact reason :

Cy Denneny (who has a raw 0.75 GPG)
Babe Dye (who has a raw 0.75 GPG)
Pavel Bure (era-adjusted 0.66 GPG) : had to retire at 31 y/o
Mike Bossy (era-adjusted 0.61 GPG) : had to retire at 30 y/o
Steven Stamkos (era-adjusted 0.61 GPG) : 33 y/o and still playing, we don't know how his goal scoring will look like in the next 4-5 years

Even though Gretzky has a much lower era-adjusted GPG of 0.51

Indeed, it actually punishes longevity whereas in real life longevity is a positive attribute.

Gretzky's later years don't take away from his goal scoring exploits in his earlier years, and yet looking at career GPG relative to a player who contributed significantly fewer games played would give that misleading impression.

Any poster who uses something like that to downplay Gretzky would have to really want it to be true.

Nah, the methodology is extremely solid, unless you believe it was not much easier to score on 80's goalies. You have the right to believe what you want, everyone does in life but facts, common sense and even gravity is the way I choose to go.

As for "longevity", the answer is just above. Very easy to understand for anyone with basic understanding.

 

[powerbomb]

I have always wanted to see Ovechkin break the record because it’s one of those monoliths in sports history, but the reason I don’t is because lazy sports fans will then feel like they have invincibility armor to say he was the greatest goal scorer of all time, which he isn’t regardless of whether he ever gets #895.

If you had one puck that you had to get into the net in a must-win situation, and you could have any player in history to make the shot to get that goal, who would you pick? Reasonably that should be the greatest goalscorer of all time, and it sure as hell isn’t Alex Ovechkin.

Great career, amazing slapshot, but never the GOAT.

 

[wetcoast]

Placing a guy with a .68 adj GPG over 1373 games played behind a guy with a .67 adj GPG over 915 games isn't equitable.

Sure I guess Mario Lemieux's numbers are inflated because of a measly 915 game sample?