Do you want Ovechkin to break Gretzky's goal record?

[moropanov]

Propably will, but hopefully not.. Isnt good enough player to have that kind of merit definitely not top 10 player not even top 50 really in hockey overall ability so it would be kind of ridicilous if he holds one of important record's he just isnt very good hockey player .

 

[KrisLeturnover]

Pens fan voting yes. Some diversity in the all time record category is welcomed by me.

 

[Plastic Joseph]

Yes, but seeing him get it as a compiler like he is today removes some of the prestige for me.

its been 1/3 of a season lol, he had 40 goals last year, 50 the year before that

Propably will, but hopefully not.. Isnt good enough player to have that kind of merit definitely not top 10 player not even top 50 really in hockey overall ability so it would be kind of ridicilous if he holds one of important record's he just isnt very good hockey player .

unfortunately for you, goals scored is not a subjective metric

 

[Alexander the Gr8]

Yes, but seeing him get it as a compiler like he is today removes some of the prestige for me.

What about how Gretzky himself got to 894?
Gretzky only scored 91 goals in his final 6 season (11, 15, 8, 25, 23, 9).

Ovechkin scored 92 goals in the past 2 seasons combined. Even if he just limps across the finish line, he will have done the same as Gretzky.

If you add to that the fact that he lost many games due to 2 lockouts early in his career and a pandemic in the middle, we’re seeing a record that normally would already be broken.

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

I don't think he's going to, and I never did for one simple reason.

Nobody beats time.

Ovechkin is proving that, we are close to mid December and he's got 5 goals, in the past he'd have AT LEAST 20 by now.

I watched him last night, he wasn't a threat, he wasn't Ovechkin and That's to be expected he's 38.

He's the 2nd greatest goal scorer ever.

That's incredible but that's where he finishes.

 

[Lshap]

I'm old enough to remember the tail-end of Gordie Howe's career. I remember Gretzky breaking Howe's record. I can't wait to cheer on Ovechkin as he approaches and (hopefully) passes Gretzky.

IMO, these are three great ambassadors of the game. Breaking each other's records (or not) won't diminish their accomplishments.

 

[Lshap]

I don't think he's going to, and I never did for one simple reason.

Nobody beats time.

Ovechkin is proving that, we are close to mid December and he's got 5 goals, in the past he'd have AT LEAST 20 by now.

I watched him last night, he wasn't a threat, he wasn't Ovechkin and That's to be expected he's 38.

He's the 2nd greatest goal scorer ever.

That's incredible but that's where he finishes.

You might be right that Ovi will fall short, but the question is whether you want him to break the record.

 

[HFpapi]

On the one hand, Crosby & Ovechkin are the first true superstars whose careers I've been able to follow in their entirety. When I first started watching, Sakic, Jagr, Forsberg, Yzerman, Sundin, Kariya, Iginla, Thornton etc had already been in the league for a minute.

I remember how insane the Ovi/Crosby rookie race was and I still marvel at them getting it done to this day. In that sense, it would be cool for Ovi to go from goal 1 --> 895 knowing I was following the entire way.

The flip side is Gretzky is so absurdly statistically dominant I kind of want him to keep all of the records. It's cool that he would still be the all-time points leader even if he had never scored a single goal and yet is still also the all-time goal leader.

I really don't know which one I prefer. I do think Ovi breaks it regardless.

 

[Seachd]

I’m more than a little confused as to why the “no” option is followed by “screw him”?

 

[Warden of the North]

Yes. History reasons.

 

[wetcoast]

Records are meant to be broken. More fun that way.

Sure but it's really looking like if Ovi breaks the record it's going to look ugly we are 25 games in and we all see what we see out there, gift wrapped usage and the production is minuscule.

Ovi is 5th in PP TOI in the league and has a single PPG that's not encouraging is it?

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I’m more than a little confused as to why the “no” option is followed by “screw him”?

It's why I didn't vote as the OP is looking for a bomb to throw or be thrown but I don't want him doing the Dave Andreychuk to the record.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

What about how Gretzky himself got to 894?
Gretzky only scored 91 goals in his final 6 season (11, 15, 8, 25, 23, 9).

Ovechkin scored 92 goals in the past 2 seasons combined. Even if he just limps across the finish line, he will have done the same as Gretzky.

If you add to that the fact that he lost many games due to 2 lockouts early in his career and a pandemic in the middle, we’re seeing a record that normally would already be broken.

Gretzky had 706 goals prior to turning 30. (He also had a hat trick on his 30th birthday, so he was up to 709 goals in 896 games - a pace of 65 goals per 82 games).

The rest of his career, he had just 185 goals over 591 games (26 goals per 82 games).

I don't want to see Ovechkin limp over the finish line either. But if he scores 20-25 goals per year over the next 3-4 seasons, is that any worse than Gretzky's final few seasons?

(On the other hand - Gretzky was an immensely competitive player. Had Gordie Howe reached 950 goals - something that he almost certainly would have done, had he played in a scoring environment similar to Gretzky's - I think Gretzky would have pushed himself to top his idol's record. The quote "Caesar wept, for there were no more worlds to conquer" comes to mind. Even in the 1994 season, when he topped Howe's record, he immediately took his foot off the gas in terms of goal-scoring, after he scored #802).

 

[McPoyle]

What about how Gretzky himself got to 894?
Gretzky only scored 91 goals in his final 6 season (11, 15, 8, 25, 23, 9).

Ovechkin scored 92 goals in the past 2 seasons combined. Even if he just limps across the finish line, he will have done the same as Gretzky.

If you add to that the fact that he lost many games due to 2 lockouts early in his career and a pandemic in the middle, we’re seeing a record that normally would already be broken.

You should double check your numbers. Gretzky had 38, 11 in 48 GP, 23, 25, 23, and then 9 in his final 6 years.

I would argue that if Ovi limps to 895 he will have done it much differently than Gretzky. Gretzky made an active choice in his late 20's to focus more on assists than goals. Wheras Ovi has basically sacrificed every other aspect of his game to focus on goals. Its hard to find two more different types of players.

And Gretzky was still one of the best players in the league during his final 6 years. 1 Art Ross trophy, led the league in assists x 3, 3 time 2AST as a center, and a playoff run that probably equals every non final run Ovi has had. Gretzky never had as bad a year in his career as Ovi currently is having, not even 1998-99.

 

[blundluntman]

Seeing him beat it with a very strong season at 40 despite the age, sure.

Seeing him beating it at 43 with a 6-goals season just to beat the record... meh.

Really depends on how he does it.

Agreed

 

[BraveCanadian]

Kind of yes, kind of no.. depends if he gets there on merit or just being fed constantly as a publicity stunt.

 

[Nadal On Clay]

What about how Gretzky himself got to 894?
Gretzky only scored 91 goals in his final 6 season (11, 15, 8, 25, 23, 9).

Ovechkin scored 92 goals in the past 2 seasons combined. Even if he just limps across the finish line, he will have done the same as Gretzky.

If you add to that the fact that he lost many games due to 2 lockouts early in his career and a pandemic in the middle, we’re seeing a record that normally would already be broken.

Who cares what he did when he got to 894 though? It’s not like he was playing only to chase that record when he beat Howe like Ovechkin seems to be doing here. Not to mention Gretzky had a pass first mentality unlike OV.

Like I said, I want him to beat it, but if he’s going to beat it by averaging 15-20 goals in the next couple of seasons, I’d rather see Gretzky keep it.

 

[AvalancheFan19]

My favourite Gretzky stat is he has the most goals of all time and the most assists of all time. By default, of course, he has the most points of all time. The kicker? If you take away every single goal he scored, he would still be the point leader.

Ovechkin has earned the right to take it but has some work to do. Looks like father time is catching up. So long as he does it in style and not some desperate attempt, I'm good with it.

 

[Machinehead]

Gretzky got his record as a Kings player. I'd rather have another King beat it.

Actually, Gretzky scored his 894th goal as a Ranger

 

[dire wolf]

Yeah, 9th or 10th is clearly ridiculous. No way players like Espo or Jagr rank ahead of him.

But it's as simple as that either. There were 620 players in the NHL in 83-84 with virtually no Russians or Americans, there were 973 in 07-08. Point being the talent pool Ovi competed against was much larger. Gretzky also doesn't have the record for greatest margin, that's Hull 90-91 when he scored 86 and the next best had 51.

Both valid points. Appreciate the response. Your point about Russians is underscored by the fact that in '07-'08, Kovalchuk was #2 and Malkin #3.

On the other hand, some of these things are contextual. Gretzky didn't need to score all the goals on his team. He had people to pass to who could score. Ovechkin and Backstrom were like Stockton and Malone. One passed, one scored. I'm not knocking it - it's been a lethal combination. But I wonder if Gretzky and Ovi would have played a little differently if they had been in different situations.

Also worth noting that Ovi scored 36.3% of his goals on the PP, a huge percentage of which were one-timers from his office. Wayne scored 22.8% of his goals on the PP. At even strength, Gretz has outscored Ovi 690 to 527.

This says to me that Ovi has the more lethal shot (obviously) -- especially since it is so predictable but still works. But Gretz was the better 5v5 goal scorer. I will also give Ovi credit for playing against better goalies. On the other hand, Gretzky played in an era of more clutching, grabbing and dirty hits -- although he was not the victim nearly as much as most players of that era. The league (and McSorley) would not stand for it.

Conclusion - they are both incredible goal scorers. To me, Gretzky is a more iconic player. His body of work is practically a tall tale - like Paul Bunyan. I like having some untouchable records and true heroes. I personally do not want Ovi to break the record.

 

[Midnight Judges]

You should double check your numbers. Gretzky had 38, 11 in 48 GP, 23, 25, 23, and then 9 in his final 6 years.

I would argue that if Ovi limps to 895 he will have done it much differently than Gretzky. Gretzky made an active choice in his late 20's to focus more on assists than goals. Wheras Ovi has basically sacrificed every other aspect of his game to focus on goals. Its hard to find two more different types of players.

And Gretzky was still one of the best players in the league during his final 6 years. 1 Art Ross trophy, led the league in assists x 3, 3 time 2AST as a center, and a playoff run that probably equals every non final run Ovi has had. Gretzky never had as bad a year in his career as Ovi currently is having, not even 1998-99.

And yet it was MASSIVELY easier to score goals in Gretzky's day relative to Ovechkin's era.

There is no doubt that Ovechkin deserves the record. The main thing propping Gretzky up is the arbitrary difference in the relative scoring environments. Ovie already has significantly more adjusted goals by any reasonable measure.

Really it ought to have remained Gordie Howe's record as he also has significantly more adjusted goals than Gretzky.

 

[TheStatican]

Both valid points. Appreciate the response. Your point about Russians is underscored by the fact that in '07-'08, Kovalchuk was #2 and Malkin #3.

On the other hand, some of these things are contextual. Gretzky didn't need to score all the goals on his team. He had people to pass to who could score. Ovechkin and Backstrom were like Stockton and Malone. One passed, one scored. I'm not knocking it - it's been a lethal combination. But I wonder if Gretzky and Ovi would have played a little differently if they had been in different situations.

Also worth noting that Ovi scored 36.3% of his goals on the PP, a huge percentage of which were one-timers from his office. Wayne scored 22.8% of his goals on the PP. At even strength, Gretz has outscored Ovi 690 to 527.

This says to me that Ovi has the more lethal shot (obviously) -- especially since it is so predictable but still works. But Gretz was the better 5v5 goal scorer. I will also give Ovi credit for playing against better goalies. On the other hand, Gretzky played in an era of more clutching, grabbing and dirty hits -- although he was not the victim nearly as much as most players of that era. The league (and McSorley) would not stand for it.

Conclusion - they are both incredible goal scorers. To me, Gretzky is a more iconic player. His body of work is practically a tall tale - like Paul Bunyan. I like having some untouchable records and true heroes. I personally do not want Ovi to break the record.

Indeed all of those points have merit as well, we're in agreement that there's a lot of extra context to consider both for and against, for each. But absolutely, there is no debate about who is the more iconic player overall. Even if Ovi gets the record he will never supplant Gretzky's status there. Case in point, when Gretzky broke Howe's 801 it didn't fundamentally change their status, it had already been determined by that point as it is here.

Like I said, I want him to beat it, but if he’s going to beat it by averaging 15-20 goals in the next couple of seasons, I’d rather see Gretzky keep it.

But did you really think he was actually going to keep scoring at a 40 or 50 goal pace in his late 30's? Sure he had been producing remarkably well through his mid 30's and has the record for most goals in a season by a 34, 36 and 37 year old, but eventually everyone hits 'the wall'.

There's only been one 40 goal season by anyone over the age of 37 and that was by the player with the greatest longevity in hockey history and even he only managed it once. My point being, it was entirely obvious Ovechkin was going to hit that wall really soon, it's just surprising that he hit it so damn hard - but in fairness to him part of that is bad luck. No he's definitely not the player that he used to be but based on his shot quality he should be at 9 or 10 goals, which is an entirely reasonable 30 goal pace for him this season and not 16. Eventually regression towards the mean should happen - upwards towards that 30 goal pace, just as it did for McDavid.

 

[McPoyle]

And yet it was MASSIVELY easier to score goals in Gretzky's day relative to Ovechkin's era.

There is no doubt that Ovechkin deserves the record. The main thing propping Gretzky up is the arbitrary difference in the relative scoring environments. Ovie already has significantly more adjusted goals by any reasonable measure.

Really it ought to have remained Gordie Howe's record as he also has significantly more adjusted goals than Gretzky.

You may notice I didn't mention anything about scoring environments, era adjustments, etc. in my comment. Im taking issue with alex gr8 suggesting Gretzky was a compiler in his late career (while also getting the plain numbers wrong). Also deserved has nothing to do with it, and you may want to double check the definition of arbitrary.

If you want to go around and use HR adjusted totals to judge everything, go ahead.

 

[CokenoPepsi]

Yes, but seeing him get it as a compiler like he is today removes some of the prestige for me.

It a really rough stretch but can you call him a compiler?

 

[authentic]

Kind of yes, kind of no.. depends if he gets there on merit or just being fed constantly as a publicity stunt.

Well it’s a no then because #2 is the only possibility at this point

 

[Staniowski]

It would probably be good for hockey if Ovechkin surpassed Gretzky's record, and particularly if he did it while still a good goal-scorer. But, personally, I don't care either way.

And neither of them are the greatest goal-scorer ever. Lemieux is.