Do you want Ovechkin to break Gretzky's goal record?

[gritdash60]

Have you watched him play recently?

Yes? Dude has 6 goals this season and 1 in the last 5 games? Am i missing something here?

 

[wetcoast]

Yes? Dude has 6 goals this season and 1 in the last 5 games? Am i missing something here?

NM I misread what you said.

 

[dalewood12]

Yes, and I'm a Pens fan. It would be amazing for the sport.

 

[Sun God Nika]

It's the opposite, todays players are soft and pampered and view eachother as colleagues moreso than rivals.

honestly its OT but i have been getting this vibe from the game . I hate seeing NBA players hug each other after a regulation loss if I am fan on the losing teams side. Seeing a lot more sportsmanship moments in this game, and players easing up on hits that can give their team clear advantages its like winning isn't the #1 goal anymore and it takes away from the product.

 

[psycat]

honestly its OT but i have been getting this vibe from the game . I hate seeing NBA players hug each other after a regulation loss if I am fan on the losing teams side. Seeing a lot more sportsmanship moments in this game, and players easing up on hits that can give their team clear advantages its like winning isn't the #1 goal anymore and it takes away from the product.

It's less entertaining for sure, sport should be about feelings aswell as results in order to be entertaining. Atleast for me, nothing wrong with being respectful(although id argue every league needs it's villains) but it's just become kinda boring(again for me obviously and others might feel different). No way it's a harder enviroment to thrive in now than 30 years ago though.

 

[SomeDude]

If he’s going to hang around for 6 years scoring 12-15 goals a season, when it’s clear he’s only playing to compile stats and should be done, then I feel like it would really put a damper on it.

 

[wetcoast]

Why?

I mean Gordie Howe came out of retirement at 69 to set a record (playing in 6 consecutive decades), which was about as gimmicky as you can get. Nobody thinks less of Howe.

Howe played a single shift in a publicity stunt they didn't give him 20 minutes and all of the PP TOI and seriously no one cared about the 6 decade thing either.

Then again, Howe is a good old Canadian great; something Ovechkin isn't.

Man talk about false equivlancies or what.

frankly I think it's emberassing when players hang out past their due date no matter their nationailty.

All of those people saying that Carbs was an impact player in Dallas trying to defend a lousy HHOF induction or Patrick Marleau playing to get the all time GP record was just as bad.

 

[TheStatican]

If he’s going to hang around for 6 years scoring 12-15 goals a season, when it’s clear he’s only playing to compile stats and should be done, then I feel like it would really put a damper on it.

Now that's what I call a win-win! And it's looking more and more likely it will happen just like that.

Ovechkin is a stoborn one, being so close to it now he is NOT going to leave the game until he gets it even if he's a shell of his former self and becomes a detriment to the team. This is not a Phil Kessel situation where no one wants him, he's not some mercenary - he's by far the greatest player in franchise history. The Caps are essentially obligated to let him play as long as he wants. Plus it's a far more important record than consecutive games played. Like it or not people ought to start accepting its almost certainly going to happen the only question is how.

 

[wetcoast]

Now that's what I call a win-win! And it's looking more and more likely it will happen just like that.

Ovechkin is a stoborn one, being so close to it now he is NOT going to leave the game until he gets it even if he's a shell of his former self and becomes a detriment to the team. This is not a Phil Kessel situation where no one wants him, he's not some mercenary - he's by far the greatest player in franchise history. The Caps are essentially obligated to let him play as long as he wants. Plus it's a far more important record than consecutive games played. Like it or not people ought to start accepting its almost certainly going to happen the only question is how.

Sure but it's still got an ugly look to it and I'm talking about hockey terms here.

 

[Hanji]

Gretzky played in an easy league

It's the opposite, todays players are soft and pampered and view eachother as colleagues moreso than rivals.

It was easier in some ways, more difficult in others.

The game was dirtier and meaner in the 80s.
On the other hand, it was more wide open. The time/space players had was ridiculous compared to today.

 

[TheStatican]

Sure but it's still got an ugly look to it and I'm talking about hockey terms here.

Do you mean specifically for him and the Caps or the league as a whole?

 

[JianYang]

Yeah, it would be amazing to see someone eclipse what seemed like a very unbreakable record.

Just to get to the point of having this conversation is amazing.

 

[wetcoast]

Do you mean specifically for him and the Caps or the league as a whole?

For him and the Capitals the league can't do anything nor should they.

 

[Hanji]

Howe played a single shift in a publicity stunt they didn't give him 20 minutes and all of the PP TOI and seriously no one cared about the 6 decade thing either.



Man talk about false equivlancies or what.

frankly I think it's emberassing when players hang out past their due date no matter their nationailty.

All of those people saying that Carbs was an impact player in Dallas trying to defend a lousy HHOF induction or Patrick Marleau playing to get the all time GP record was just as bad.

No false equivalency.
It's likewise why Ovechkin is hated for his political stances, yet Gretzky's inhumane political beliefs are swept under the rug. We manufacture an image for our icons. It's a double standard.
But we already discussed this to the point of getting our posts erased.

As for players hanging out past their due date? I dunno. That can be situational. Depends if they can still be an asset to their team.

 

[wetcoast]

No false equivalency.

There really is a false equivalency between Ovi playing extremely sheltered first line MPG and all that PP TOI and his production versus a one game thing where Gordie Howe literally stepped on the ice and then off again.

It's likewise why Ovechkin is hated for his political stances, yet Gretzky's inhumane political beliefs are swept under the rug. We manufacture an image for our icons. It's a double standard.
But we already discussed this to the point of getting our posts erased.

I don't care about this stuff but one thing is not like the other and I'll leave it at that.

As for players hanging out past their due date? I dunno. That can be situational. Depends if they can still be an asset to their team.

Seriously Ovechkin has played in just over 160 minutes on the PP and has 2 freaking goals.

Also it's not like he is given hard starts on the ice with a 72.7 offensive zone start rate.

By any objective measure Ovi is vastly under performing this year and it really doesn't look like that it will get any better.

 

[Hanji]

There really is a false equivalency between Ovi playing extremely sheltered first line MPG and all that PP TOI and his production versus a one game thing where Gordie Howe literally stepped on the ice and then off again.




I don't care about this stuff but one thing is not like the other and I'll leave it at that.

Seriously Ovechkin has played in just over 160 minutes on the PP and has 2 freaking goals.

Also it's not like he is given hard starts on the ice with a 72.7 offensive zone start rate.

By any objective measure Ovi is vastly under performing this year and it really doesn't look like that it will get any better.

If Ovechkin was reduced to a gimmick to break a record all hell would break loose. But not so with Howe. He's a good old boy.

And what the Caps are doing w/ Ovechkin is no different than Florida with Tkachuk - a proven 40 goal scorer with less goals than Ovechkin. Both teams are sticking with proven players to try to get them going. I mean Tkachuk is receiving the 2nd most ice time of his career.


This is the first year Ovechkin truly doesn't look like himself. But every player is gonna finish the season they started.
If Ovi keep returning year after year with a hugely diminished skill-set to the detriment of the Caps, then we can talk about "hanging out past their due date". It doesn't apply in the current situation.

 

[wetcoast]

If Ovechkin was reduced to a gimmick to break a record all hell would break loose. But not so with Howe. He's a good old boy.

Like I said you are yelling in a forest all by yourself here as no one cares about the 6 decades thing and even if you want to equate the 2 he was on the ice for a single non eventful shift, Ovi is getting premium MPG and vastly sucking.

And what the Caps are doing w/ Ovechkin is no different than Florida with Tkachuk - a proven 40 goal scorer with less goals than Ovechkin. Both teams are sticking with proven players to try to get them going. I mean Tkachuk is receiving the 2nd most ice time of his career.

I saw this earlier and it seemed strange then as it does now mainly because Tkaachuk brings a lot more to his game than simply scoring and is obviously been affected by the broken sternum he suffered in last years final.

https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/florida-panthers/latest-news/you-just-have-to-let-it-heal-matthew-tkachuk-provides-update-on-injury-pain-of-losing-in-stanley-cup-final

but if you don't believe go watch him play he is way more involved than Ovi is and heck he isn't even a good old Canadian boy but one of those Yankees.

This is the first year Ovechkin truly doesn't look like himself. But every player is gonna finish the season they started.
If Ovi keep returning year after year with an immensly dimined skill-set, then you can talk about "hanging out past their due date". It doesn't apply in the current situation.

He has looked differently since his peak ended with some flourishes here and there but for the most part he has become a shooter since his prime and a goal scorer not an overall impact type of player.

The Capitals have also increasingly sheltered him from his natural aging curve which is fine but time seems to have caught up here.

 

[Hanji]

Like I said you are yelling in a forest all by yourself here as no one cares about the 6 decades thing and even if you want to equate the 2 he was on the ice for a single non eventful shift, Ovi is getting premium MPG and vastly sucking.

I saw this earlier and it seemed strange then as it does now mainly because Tkaachuk brings a lot more to his game than simply scoring and is obviously been affected by the broken sternum he suffered in last years final.

https://thehockeynews.com/nhl/florida-panthers/latest-news/you-just-have-to-let-it-heal-matthew-tkachuk-provides-update-on-injury-pain-of-losing-in-stanley-cup-final

but if you don't believe go watch him play he is way more involved than Ovi is and heck he isn't even a good old Canadian boy but one of those Yankees.



He has looked differently since his peak ended with some flourishes here and there but for the most part he has become a shooter since his prime and a goal scorer not an overall impact type of player.

The Capitals have also increasingly sheltered him from his natural aging curve which is fine but time seems to have caught up here.

Howe and Gretzky are icons. Gimmick Howe and warmonger Gretzky's discretions are downplayed. Your responses are proof of this.
Oveckhin? Not so much.


And Ovechkin is 3rd in assist on the Caps, Tkachuk is 2nd on the Panthers. Both are in very similar situations from the offensive side of the spectrum.
Teams are sticking with them to get their goal scoring started.


Ovechkin's peak ended a while ago, but he was still 10th in NHL goals last year on a team with no help. That's elite. Quit pretending like he was some mediocre player before this year. Very disingenuous.

 

[wetcoast]

Howe and Gretzky are icons. Gimmick Howe and warmonger Gretzky's discretions are downplayed. Your responses are proof of this.
Oveckhin? Not so much.


And Ovechkin is 3rd in assist on the Caps, Tkachuk is 2nd on the Panthers. Both are in very similar situations from the offensive side of the spectrum.
Teams are sticking with them to get their goal scoring started.


Ovechkin's peak ended a while ago, but he was still 10th in NHL goals last year on a team with no help. That's elite. Quit pretending like he was some mediocre player before this year. Very disingenuous.

I'm not even sure where to start but I won't go far as you seem to be arguing with yourself here and I guess Howes transgression is that he played a shift for a gimmick that no one cares about.

just stop and think about this no one died because of the gimmick so yes you are technically out to lunch.

The Tkachuk comparison is ludicrous as well as Matt draws more penalties than Ovi, and it's not even close and is like 9 more penalties drawn than taken where Ovechkin i believe is -2 in that regard but the whole false equalivanacy falls flat on both fronts here.

We can all look at the production versus usage for Ovi this year father time has caught up.

 

[psycat]

No false equivalency.
It's likewise why Ovechkin is hated for his political stances, yet Gretzky's inhumane political beliefs are swept under the rug. We manufacture an image for our icons. It's a double standard.
But we already discussed this to the point of getting our posts erased.

As for players hanging out past their due date? I dunno. That can be situational. Depends if they can still be an asset to their team.

Just curious which inhumane political beliefs are you talking about? Never heard about the subject.

 

[Xspyrit]

A general comment - it's usually not a good idea to rest your entire case on one statistic. When you're comparing any of the all-time greats, it's not hard to cherry-pick whatever data that presents them in the best possible light. (I don't think you've done this intentionally, but for many people, it's not hard to find a stat that favours their preferred player, and then there's the temptation to treat that as the one true, definitive way of evaluating players. I can think of several HFBoards regulars who do this). On top of that, the stats you're using are entirely focused on regular season production; playoffs should be taken into account, and that would shuffle the order, at least somewhat.

A more specific comment - it's misleading to compare an active player's GPG, to that of a retired player. Even more generally, it's deceptive to compare the GPG of someone who had a long career, to someone who retired young. For example, your metric shows that Bossy was a significantly better goal-scorer than Gretzky (0.61 vs 0.51). Which is a crazy conclusion because during the eight years that their careers overlapped, Gretzky was much better (0.86 vs 0.75), and if you compare them over their first ten years (1978-87 for Bossy and 1980-89 for Gretzky), you get a similar result (0.82 vs 0.76). Head to head, Gretzky was better than Bossy by a decent margin but, in effect, he's being penalized for having a long career. (I agree Gretzky's goal-scoring dropped off, but it seems wrong to say that Gretzky scoring 257 goals in the second half of his career somehow makes him worse than Bossy, who wasn't as good as Gretzky in his first decade, and scored zero goals after that). On the History board, we usually compare players over their best 7 or 10 years (especially when looking at per-game stats), because players with good longevity shouldn't be penalized.

I'm not trying to be hard on you. I like that you're making logical, fact-based arguments. Just trying to fine-tune them to make them stronger.

Sorry for the late come back. I understand what you're trying to say but I have absolutely ZERO dog in this fight... My favorite players from this era were Pavel Bure (that I disqualified because he retired too young), Felix Potvin, Nicklas Lidstrom, Dominik Hasek, Daniel Alfredsson, Miikka Kiprusoff...

I'm not cherry picking anything. I am using GPG (Goals per Game) which is THE best stat to determine goal scoring ability/results... What other stats should be used? Raw goals scored? Was Patrick Marleau a better goal scorer than Guy Lafleur and Maurice Richard? Try to get out of Montreal alive saying that.

Then I am taking in consideration eras where these players played in and try to convert it in the statistics. There's really nothing more than this. If you or anybody don't like the results, there's absolutely nothing I can do about it, it's pure statistics

The same exercise could be done for playoffs if you want, I just didn't do it because well, I have other things to do in life lol

As for the rest, it's already all explained in some of my posts on the subject. It's literally IMPOSSIBLE to say everything in every post. Look at post #137, it's all there

All that said, thank you for constructive criticism, which is much more appreciated than some of the replies we get sometimes

I think you think I was disagreeing with something I wasn't disagreeing with.

I'm fine with hockey reference's adjusted stats. They are not perfect but they are far more indicative than raw stats. They get problematic if you go back too far in history - but then again so do raw stats.

The point I was disagreeing with was the idea that career per-game stats can be compared between two players in instances where one of the players played substantially more games (in this case a whopping 50% more games).

If one player plays 600 games after age 30 and another guy plays zero games after age 30, it's not apples to apples to compare their career per game stats. The player who played more games is at an inherent disadvantage, and yet they provided additional value to their team. So again, by this metric they get punished for providing additional value to their team. That is perverse.

It was the career per game part I take issue with, not the adjustment.

A more equitable comparison would be to compare their first X number of games, and then acknowledge that one of the players provided substantial additional value on top of that.

We don't have a real problem with going too far back in history, Gordie Howe being the oldest in the list

As for rest, taken in consideration, you just didn't have the opportunity to read the posts that explained it, like post #137 (again I have to repeat lol)

And for that point, Mario Lemieux is at advantage compared to Gretzky because he didn't play as much in his 30's, BUT there's a vast difference between their EA GPGs (0.67 vs 0.51) so it should still keep Mario above as a goal scorer.

 

[Midnight Judges]

frankly I think it's emberassing when players hang out past their due date no matter their nationailty.

That is a pathetic take. Ovechkin scored 40+ goals last season and 50 the year before.

He's 30 some games in this season and has been playing well the past few games.

I think you are opposed to Ovechkin to an irrational degree. Of course, you've never said why you hate Alex Ovechkin so much.

 

[wetcoast]

That is a pathetic take. Ovechkin scored 40+ goals last season and 50 the year before.

We are talking about this year and even in the last couple of years the Caps have bent over backwards for the goals record last year

He's 30 some games in this season and has been playing well the past few games.

The 30 something games seems pretty indicative of where he is as a player right now.

I think you are opposed to Ovechkin to an irrational degree. Of course, you've never said why you hate Alex Ovechkin so much.

Perhaps you should read more and think less as most people aren't opposed to Ovi they just don't deny reality and look at players fairly and there is no answer for the last part as I don't hate any players although I dislike cheap players like Matt Cooke.

 

[Midnight Judges]

We are talking about this year and even in the last couple of years the Caps have bent over backwards for the goals record last year

They haven't though. That's just a bullshit narrative from haters who are pissed that the all-time goals record is under threat from someone who is not their guy.

Here in real life Ovechkin has been the best player on the team his entire career, and they've won a ton of games with Ovie as the centerpiece.

Your beloved Penguins have sacrificed 7 of their previous 11 first round draft picks trying to keep Crosby relevant. THAT is sacrificing something. Whereas the Capitals first round draft picks are starting to bear fruit.

Perhaps you should read more and think less as most people aren't opposed to Ovi they just don't deny reality and look at players fairly and there is no answer for the last part as I don't hate any players although I dislike cheap players like Matt Cooke.

So you are constantly saying irrational things about Ovechkin for no apparent reason then?

Yeah I think not.

 

[brentashton]

Records are made to be broken. Would be hypocritical to say he shouldn’t be allowed to have an honest run at it.

I was a young man in Alberta during the glory years, watching Wayne score many of his points and Gordie Howe is my favourite NHL player of all time, so I get the feelings about breaking an icon’s all time record. That said, I will not be heartbroken to see Ovechkin come up short.

PS I’m also of Ukrainian descent. Just saying.