Salary Cap: Do you trust Kyle Dubas with salary negotiations?

[drewjenks]

He is paid 7.5 per season. He just ends up working like 5.5 seasons instead of the full 6 in the contract.



It's insignificant for the cap, yes. It is not insignificant when Marner and Matthews and Kapanen look at his actual salary... which is 7.5

If you sign a contract that says you get paid $7.5 million per year, but you and everyone else knows you are only getting paid $6.9 million per year ...

How much are you getting paid?
Which number is more relevant?

 

[Dreakmur]

I understand salary, I also understand that salary is a concept and pay is tangible which you seem to be missing.

His salary is 7.5 million. Agreed. That equals 45 million over the course of 6 years. Agreed.

Now, what I’m arguing, and what players actually care about, is he is being paid 6.9 million per year, or 41.4 million over the course of 6 years.

His cap hit, after this season , is 6.9 million per season.

So from the players perspective he is getting 6.9 million in real dollars per year.

From the team’s perspective, they’re on the hook for 6.9 million per year (after this season).

From the record keeping perspective, which matters to literally no one, his salary is 7.5 million.

He’s not getting paid for the time he didn’t work.

His average yearly salary is still 7.5.

He only worked 5 and half seasons, instead of 6, which is how you get to the 41.4 million number.

 

[Dreakmur]

If you sign a contract that says you get paid $7.5 million per year, but you and everyone else knows you are only getting paid $6.9 million per year ...

How much are you getting paid?
Which number is more relevant?

Can I take the first 3 months off to think about it?

 

[The Podium]

He’s not getting paid for the time he didn’t work.

His average yearly salary is still 7.5.

He only worked 5 and half seasons, instead of 6, which is how you get to the 41.4 million number.

I understand that.... what I’m saying is why would 7.5 mill be relevant? Dubas is just making Nylander whole on the time missed. Players aren’t going to demand more because the books are a higher number than Nylander is being paid in real dollars.

Unless you think players would prefer to miss a whole bunch of games to make relatively more per game but not end up with more money in real dollars in the end.

 

[Dreakmur]

I understand that.... what I’m saying is why would 7.5 mill be relevant? Dubas is just making Nylander whole on the time missed. Players aren’t going to demand more because the books are a higher number than Nylander is being paid in real dollars.

Players and agents will make any argument to get more money. Just look at the Nylander negotiations....

Why would Dubas pay for Nylander’s time off? It’s just paying the guy more than he’s worth.

 

[The Podium]

Players and agents will make any argument to get more money. Just look at the Nylander negotiations....

Why would Dubas pay for Nylander’s time off? It’s just paying the guy more than he’s worth.

Because the contract wouldn’t get done otherwise?

Whats done is done, players would prefer to not miss games so Nylander getting paid for time missed won’t be used as a bagining tool for agents and players.

If a player even mentions it Dubas can just say wait until Dec 1st so you can be compensated equally.

Also the mentality of pay me for my time is a true employees perspective, not an employers so your shot at me not understanding a pay check makes sense now.

 

[drewjenks]

Can I take the first 3 months off to think about it?

Yes, but unfortunately you already took them.

Don't you remember?

 

[LeafingTheWay]

What if Marner scores 100 points and signs for $9.5 million? That's what Nikita Kucherov got from Tampa Bay after he had 100 points last season and I think it would be the best comparable Dubas can use.

Good idea but 2 big things here:

1) Tampa players (Florida area) do not get taxed as much as other teams. So Kuch signing 9.5 is actually a higher number if signed elsewhere. That's why people think it's kinds unfair but oh well.
2) Cap projected to go up by 5 mill next season I believe.

IF those Marner 9M rumours were true, wouldn't be surprised if he asks for a shit ton.

Anyways, it's going to be a very interesting summer with Rantanen, Laine, Point, Boeser, Matthews, Marner, etc all looking for huge contracts.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Good idea but 2 big things here:

1) Tampa players (Florida area) do not get taxed as much as other teams. So Kuch signing 9.5 is actually a higher number if signed elsewhere. That's why people think it's kinds unfair but oh well.
2) Cap projected to go up by 5 mill next season I believe.

IF those Marner 9M rumours were true, wouldn't be surprised if he asks for a **** ton.

Anyways, it's going to be a very interesting summer with Rantanen, Laine, Point, Boeser, Matthews, Marner, etc all looking for huge contracts.

Wouldn't Dubas not care about the no state tax for the Lighting players? I mean in the end Kucherov still signed for an AAV of $9.5 million for 8 years and I think that's what matters the most when looking at comparable contracts. Plus what if the Leafs could work out a signing bonus like they gave Tavares, because that's an advantage they have over a lot of teams.

 

[FraumBallard]

Not sensitive, just allergic to bull****.

 

[FraumBallard]

Have we really come to the point we are going to fire our GM with half a season as GM and the team looking at record points AND he built a Calder winner and signed the biggest NHL UFA in at least 12 years.
And please spare me the lame answer Tavares was coming no matter what. He signed with the Leafs the night before July 1st. He was seriously considering the Islanders. Dubas' presentation got rave reviews and we know Tavares himself loved it.

 

[FraumBallard]

FIRE DUBAS!!!!

 

[jfc64]

This is the most ridiculous post in this thread of ridiculous posts.... at least there is some validity in the Dubas skepticism, but now to target Shanny?! Do you remember where this organization was before Shanny?

As for his drafting, Sandin and SDA look like steals and Durzi has played well despite missing most of the year to injury. It is way to premature to call it a poor draft especially considering early encouraging signs.

Tavares, and Tavares alone, in FA was a thing of beauty. If you haven’t been paying attention, FA is a one way ticket to caphell, smart GMs stay away from middle shelf items. Franchise players and bargin bins are the only players that are worth their value.

McBackup hasn’t been any better than Sparks and has been injured twice.

The Athletic predicted a fair price for Nylander based on historic comparables to be over 7, dubas got him under 7 and while not ideal, it was still league average for a player of his ilk. In no way did he get bent over considering Nylander started at over 8.

OK. If we could just turn back the clock on two things everything would be fine:

- The Marleau signing
- Starting negotiations with Nylander yesterday instead of before the summer.

Somehow you feel Dubas is meant to be the "sacrificial lamb" when things turn out NOTASWEPLANNEDIT eventually.

PS. Brian Burke should shut up.

 

[KapG]

At this point I trust dubas more with contract negotiations than I do Babcock with his coaching decisions.

 

[KapG]

You would as you are his biggest fan putting him ahead of the team. I expected him to get a two year deal at 3.5m per as a prove it type contract. He is a player that you do not give term to as he needs to play every part of the game before you consider paying him any where near what he got.

Lmao

 

[LeafsNation75]

OK. If we could just turn back the clock on two things everything would be fine:

- The Marleau signing
- Starting negotiations with Nylander yesterday instead of before the summer.

Somehow you feel Dubas is meant to be the "sacrificial lamb" when things turn out NOTASWEPLANNEDIT eventually.

PS. Brian Burke should shut up.

You do remember the Marleau signing was done by Lou Lamoriello when he was the GM. Plus he also couldn't get Nylander to sign his contract extension 1 year before he became an RFA.

 

[FraumBallard]

They give Kyle more help than any team.

 

[FraumBallard]

Yeah.
Sad.
He's a disaster.
Just watch.

 

[FraumBallard]

Exactly. I'm pretty sure Dubas just graduated highschool too. What was he thinking giving a 21 year old star (one of the guys we called a 'big 3' Leafs player) a long term contract at a fair price? His inexperience will likely result in the Leafs overpaying a 6th D to a 4.5 mill 7 year contract (Zaitsev) . Oh wait, that was the super experienced Lou Lameriello. Maybe it will result in the Leafs overpaying a washed up MTL D (Komiserak) a big contract. Oh wait, that was super experienced Brian Burke.

 

[jfc64]

You do remember the Marleau signing was done by Lou Lamoriello when he was the GM. Plus he also couldn't get Nylander to sign his contract extension 1 year before he became an RFA.

Yeah, you're right. Still not a great idea to start negotiations so late. Or exhaust a core player in the season with this negotation shit. Kyle and Willie (two kids) was left in dark places when it could have been solved differently.

 

[Willy Stylez]

Easily the worst fanbase on the site, and that's saying a lot. You know it's a terrible thread when TWS likes your post.

Haha exactly.

 

[jfc64]

At this point I trust dubas more with contract negotiations than I do Babcock with his coaching decisions.

Babcock is easily the coach I would chose first if I was GM.

 

[Westlander]

The whole Nylander thing, although unattractive right now, I think will be fine in the long run. What does look like a bad misjudgement is not getting Marner done on a deal before the season, as it sounds as though there was opportunity for this at 9m/yr or whatever. I know it's hindsight, but it shouldn't be surprising that he's having an explosive year, especially since no secret was made of the fact that they were going to play him with Tavares. If we hadn't gotten JT, it would have been more defensible to take a wait and see approach, since I don't think he would put up the same numbers if he were playing on Kadri's wing all season.
The Mathews situation is interesting, as he looks nothing like a 12m/yr player right now. The rest of this regular season and the playoffs are going to determine so much going forward IMHO.

 

[Lauro]

Of course.

 

[613Leafer]

Caphit % by year signed

• Scheifele = 8.39% (8 year deal) after 61 points (29G) in 71 games (70 point pace) and being 1st in goals/ 2nd on his team in points
• Ehlers = 8.00% (7 year deal) after 64 points (25G) and being 4th on his team in points/goals
• Larkin = 7.67% (5 year deal) after 63 points (16G) and being 1st on his team in points
• Forsberg = 8.22% (6 year deal) after 64 points (33G) and being 1st on his team in points/goals
• Pastrnak = 8.89% (6 year deal) after 70 points (34G) in 75 games (77 point pace) and being 2nd on his team in points/goals

Nylander = 8.77% (6 year deal) after 61 points (20G) and being 3rd in points and 6th in goals.

So his actual performance was closest to Ehlers (similar points, similar goals, similar rank on his team), but his cap hit % is way up near Pastrnak's, while also being a shorter deal than Scheifele/Ehlers. Larkin's caphit % is the lowest, but that also reflects his shorter 5 year deal.

One asterix is what would those guys have gotten paid if they had been willing to sit out until 3 minutes before the December 1st deadline? That we don't know. We did get the ONE player in the last ten years willing to do this, who also happens to be the son of one of the only guys from the previous generation of players willing to sit out a full season. Regardless, Dubas overpaid Nylander, and erred in not getting Marner signed before this season. Marner's long-term caphit has probably jumped by 2-3M after his play this year.

So while I'm generally quite pro-Dubas, I'm a bit skeptical on his contract negotiations at this point, at least with our top RFAs.
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