Do you think you would have outperformed Dorion?

[Sweatred]

What's the point of the thread then if the premise is that it's impossible anyone could do a better job than GMPD?
For the record I said he'd likely do a much better job drafting than me. Though drafting is usually hiring good scouts.

His NHL moves have been almost entirely terrible and the only one that paid off huge was basically a fluke (SJ #1).

I don’t know the OP point of the thread … but it nicely exposes how many people actually believe they have a better hockey mind than Dorion. Thats is a redicilous notion that immediately discredits anyone who actually believes that.

I know he would do a better job drafting than you. Unless
You’ve been evaluating elite players for years you really have no clue at what your looking for.

Hockey is full of paid and volunteer positions. If your good at something that position will find you - and that’s your role in hockey.

 

[Knave]

I don’t know the OP point of the thread … but it nicely exposes how many people actually believe they have a better hockey mind than Dorion. Thats is a redicilous notion that immediately discredits anyone who actually believes that.

I know he would do a better job drafting than you. Unless
You’ve been evaluating elite players for years you really have no clue at what your looking for.

Hockey is full of paid and volunteer positions. If your good at something that position will find you - and that’s your role in hockey.

You and Pierre Dorion are just jealous. It must hurt speed-running worst GM in NHL history. I look forward to listing the accolades for worst GM of all time after the end of this coming season.

Lets throw out a fair comparable for Dorion: Mike Milbury.

In the non-cap era Mike Milbury was explicitly told to shed salary. He was told to get rid of specific players on the roster by his owner. He missed the playoffs 6 straight years ( 1 1/2 while being head coach and GM) and then made it 3 in a row.

How is Dorion doing? He gets to live in the salary cap era and he's heading into year 6 of a 5 year playoff drought.

Would I rather have 70 people in a room figuring stuff out or would I rather have arguably the worst GM in the history of hockey? It's a difficult question to answer. If you think it's "easily the worst GM in all of sports history" then own it.

 

[Sweatred]

You and Pierre Dorion are just jealous. It must hurt speed-running worst GM in NHL history. I look forward to listing the accolades for worst GM of all time after the end of this coming season.

Lets throw out a fair comparable for Dorion: Mike Milbury.

In the non-cap era Mike Milbury was explicitly told to shed salary. He was told to get rid of specific players on the roster by his owner. He missed the playoffs 6 straight years ( 1 1/2 while being head coach and GM) and then made it 3 in a row.

How is Dorion doing? He gets to live in the salary cap era and he's heading into year 6 of a 5 year playoff drought.

Would I rather have 70 people in a room figuring stuff out or would I rather have arguably the worst GM in the history of hockey? It's a difficult question to answer. If you think it's "easily the worst GM in all of sports history" then own it.

I think you are missing my point … I don’t think Dorion is a great GM. Far from it actually… I just don’t think anyone here is going to be asked to sort out Kanata novice house league let alone ready to a be better GM than Dorion.

 

[Knave]

I think people need to understand just how bad Dorion is and how valid the Mike Milbury comparison actually is.

Milbury -

Hired in the fall of 1995 to be the coach​

Hired as GM 3 months later because his owner is so cheap​

Explicitly told by his owner to trade certain players due to salary concerns​

Most of his tenure as GM was before the salary cap era where teams like the Devils could buy players.​

6 year playoff drought which includes the year he was hired as a coach and then given the role of GM​

Dorion -

Promoted to AGM by Bryan Murray to work under him in the summer of 2014​

Promoted to GM in the spring of 2016 due to Bryan Murray's health (he had a full offseason to prepare)​

Worked within the post-lockout cap era.​

Given a budget to work within.​

5 year playoff drought that is currently ongoing as we head into year 7 of his tenure.​

Milbury took an opportunity in a horrible situation and still managed to make the playoffs despite his incompetence. He is mocked relentlessly for his moves and failures.

And here we are with Dorion. Approaching Milbury's playoff drought despite Dorion having some very real benefits and experience that Milbury did not.

I'm not here to defend Mike Milbury. I'm here wondering why the hell this organization continues to employ Pierre Dorion.

I would genuinely rather have an HFBoards poster at this point. Lets try something different. Let us try something besides a guy who has proven to be one of the worst GMs of all time and who might legitimately be the worst GM of all time by this time next year.

Let that sink in for a second. We might be witnessing the worst GM ever on his way out.

 

[lancepitlick]

I don’t know the OP point of the thread … but it nicely exposes how many people actually believe they have a better hockey mind than Dorion. Thats is a redicilous notion that immediately discredits anyone who actually believes that.

I know he would do a better job drafting than you. Unless
You’ve been evaluating elite players for years you really have no clue at what your looking for.

Hockey is full of paid and volunteer positions. If your good at something that position will find you - and that’s your role in hockey.

Again an appeal to authority. Was Isiah Tomas a good GM due to his decades in basketball? Nope. Milbury? Nope.

The fact that Dorion has spent his ENTIRE CAREER in hockey and has been this awful speaks volumes for him as a person. His father was in hockey so it isn't like he grinded up the ladder.

I have another job and follow hockey here and there and even I know his trades are brutal the second he makes them. They are WTF Vince Carter to the Nets kinda of moves.

Dorion knows hockey better, but he has rocks for brains as far as strategy, contracts, asset management, and public speaking. And even on the hockey side he's made so many bad moves you wonder how bright a hockey mind he is. Nothing thus far suggests he's anything better than a good amateur scout. So yeah if he's my head amateur scout I think I probably couldn't do much worse than him at everything else.

What else has he done that was so brilliant? Zub OK. Getting a 1st round pick for a generational talent that lucked out to #4?

That's over many years now. Trading good players you inherited and coming last in the league isn't that hard.

Pretty sure I could overpay Matt Murray, trade a future star center for a washed up veteran, and acquire Derek Stepan, MDZ, Hamonic, Burrows, Oduya, Gubrandson, Zaitsev etc.

Pretty sure I could embarrass myself every time I talk to the media.

If anyone wants to bet me that PD will be an NHL GM again after he eventually exits his role here I will gladly put down $100.

Nobody would take that bet, which is all you need to know.

 

[Sweatred]

Again an appeal to authority. Was Isiah Tomas a good GM due to his decades in basketball? Nope. Milbury? Nope.

Dorion knows hockey better, but he has rocks for brains as far as strategy, contracts, asset management, and public speaking. And even on the hockey side he's made so many bad moves you wonder how bright a hockey mind he is. Nothing thus far suggests he's anything better than a good amateur scout. So yeah if he's my head amateur scout I think I probably couldn't do much worse than him at everything else.

What else has he done that was so brilliant? Zub. Getting a 1st round pick for a generational talent that lucked out to #4?

Pretty sure I could overpay Matt Murray, trade a future star center for a washed up veteran, and acquire Derek Stepan, MDZ, Hamonic, Burrows, Gubrandson, Zaitsev etc.

Pretty sure I could embarrass myself every time I talk to the media.

If anyone wants to bet me that PD will be an NHL GM again after he eventually exits his role here I will gladly put down $100.

Again, I’m not saying Dorion is a good, great, or even a smart GM … I just don’t see how your better ?

What experience do you have in hockey that could help you beyond EA or office pool type trades ?

There are probably lots
Of head scouts and other hockey people who would be better GM’s than Dorion… but that isn’t the question.

What would you describe as the highest level of hockey admin, coaching, or evaluation that you have experienced ?

 

[lancepitlick]

Again, I’m not saying Dorion is a good, great, or even a smart GM … I just don’t see how your better ?

What experience do you have in hockey that could help you beyond EA or office pool type trades ?

There are probably lots
Of head scouts and other hockey people who would be better GM’s than Dorion… but that isn’t the question.

What would you describe as the highest level of hockey admin, coaching, or evaluation that you have experienced ?

1) I believe I'm smarter than Dorion, so if I turned my mind to hockey 100% of the time I'd make better decisions than him and would be able to lean on others where needed for advice. I wouldn't picture myself starting tomorrow, but if you gave me a couple years to dig in and/or work in hockey for even a fifth the amount of time Dorion has been involved I'd do better.

How could you do worse? All he's done is draft decently. That's what you need scouts for, not the GM. If all he is good at is drafting, why wouldn't a half intelligent owner leave him as amateur scout and have someone else as GM?

 

[Sweatred]

1) I believe I'm smarter than Dorion, so if I turned my mind to hockey 100% of the time I'd make better decisions than him and would be able to lean on others where needed for advice. I wouldn't picture myself starting tomorrow, but if you gave me a couple years to dig in and/or work in hockey for even a fifth the amount of time Dorion has been involved I'd do better.

How could you do worse? All he's done is draft decently. That's what you need scouts for, not the GM. If all he is good at is drafting, why wouldn't a half intelligent owner leave him as amateur scout and have someone else as GM?

You may be smarter … or at least your social intelligence or communication skills may be higher. If you both took the same program at Ottawa U I don’t doubt you achieve a higher grade and I don’t even know you …

I don’t think there is any chance you learn to evaluate a hockey player in 5 years. I don’t think you could get your hockey IQ to the point that a local minor hockey league would let you direct their house league.

Just my $0.02.

 

[lancepitlick]

Daryl Morey had all of 4 years in basketball before becoming GM of the Rockets. They have the second best record in the NBA since he took over. Prior basketball experience: zero.

Isiah Tomas was the leader of an NBA dynasty, multiple time all-star, NBA Head Coach and couldn't manage an NBA roster if his life depended on it.

 

[Sweatred]

Daryl Morey had all of 4 years in basketball before becoming GM of the Rockets. They have the second best record in the NBA since he took over. Prior basketball experience: zero.

Isiah Tomas was the leader of an NBA dynasty, multiple time all-star, NBA Head Coach and couldn't manage an NBA roster if his life depended on it.

Yes … as I said … I don’t think you could get your hockey IQ to the point someone would trust you
To run novice house league.

Try it, call up your local minor hockey program and offer to volunteer - run their short outs, divide up all the players into fair teams and get each team good cosches and see how it goes.

 

[lancepitlick]

You may be smarter … or at least your social intelligence or communication skills may be higher. If you both took the same program at Ottawa U I don’t doubt you achieve a higher grade and I don’t even know you …

I don’t think there is any chance you learn to evaluate a hockey player in 5 years. I don’t think you could get your hockey IQ to the point that a local minor hockey league would let you direct their house league.

Just my $0.02.

And Dorion can? What part of his hockey IQ said Matt Murray, Burrows, Jonny Oduya, Brassard, trading for Duchense with a poor roster (I.e. can't evaluate his roster), Erik Brannstrom, Derek Stepan makes you think he has any hockey IQ?

You can literally just look at the age/stats of the players and go WTF when he makes a move.

What kind of hockey IQ trades a star #1 Center for a vet that was good for 30 games? What kind of IQ identifies Stepan and Jonny Oduya as key cogs in their team? What kind of IQ blows his entire budget on a goalie when anyone who has looked at analytics can tell you that's a horrible decision? And then does it for a goalie that can't play? Who signs Dadynov, who can't play.

How bad does he have to be before a monkey can throw darts better than Dorion?

 

[Xspyrit]

What's the point of the thread then if the premise is that it's impossible anyone could do a better job than GMPD?
For the record I said he'd likely do a much better job drafting than me. Though drafting is usually hiring good scouts.

His NHL moves have been almost entirely terrible and the only one that paid off huge was basically a fluke (SJ #1).

I personally defended the Karlsson trade but the comments about they didn't expect Norris to be more than a 3rd line Center makes me doubt. They also waived Balcers like he had no value, they didn't seem to think much of DeMelo as they only traded him for a 3rd. The guy they valued probably way too much, Chris Tierney, they held onto him until he had ZERO value left (WTF? I have been SCREAMING to trade him for 2 years)

That they possibly thought Colin White was going to be a better player than Norris (thought of Josh as a #3 C, paid White as a #2 C) also makes me very unwell. I personally thought the Sharks would miss the playoffs in 2019 and the pick could end up around 10th OA but did they? So yeah, maybe they entirely lucked out with Norris and Stutzle

Also I gave Dorion a lot of credit for signing Zub but maybe they were not expecting much from him? Or less than I did? (I have posts saying that based on his KHL career and international resume, etc, he could possibly be a top-4 D-man at the NHL level). It took 9 games to try him out while we had the worse defense in the NHL of the last 25 years... I mean lol?

If I'm lost at sea and there is lot of storms, I need to be able to trust the person who is commanding the ship

 

[Sweatred]

And Dorion can? What part of his hockey IQ said Matt Murray, Burrows, Jonny Oduya, Brassard, trading for Duchense with a poor roster (I.e. can't evaluate his roster), Erik Brannstrom, Derek Stepan makes you think he has any hockey IQ?

You can literally just look at the age/stats of the players and go WTF when he makes a move.

What kind of hockey IQ trades a star #1 Center for a vet that was good for 30 games? What kind of IQ identifies Stepan and Jonny Oduya as key cogs in their team? What kind of IQ blows his entire budget on a goalie when anyone who has looked at analytics can tell you that's a horrible decision? And then does it for a goalie that can't play? Who signs Dadynov, who can't play.

How bad does he have to be before a monkey can throw darts better than Dorion?

I assume your one of the 73 who voted yes.

 

[lancepitlick]

Could Dorion coach a novice hockey team? Deal with contentious issues? Communicate effectively to his players and parents? Make tough decisions and explain them? Could he even identify which players to play where? I see no evidence of that!!!!

 

[lancepitlick]

I personally defended the Karlsson trade but the comments about they didn't expect Norris to be more than a 3rd line Center makes me doubt. That they possibly thought Colin White was going to be a better player also makes me very unwell. I personally thought the Sharks would miss the playoffs in 2019 and the pick could end up around 10th OA but did they? So yeah, maybe they entirely lucked out

Also gave him a lot of credit for signing Zub but maybe they were not expecting much from him? Or less than I did? (I have posts saying that based on his KHL career and international resume, etc, he could even be a top-4 D-man at the NHL level). It took 9 games to try him out while we had the worse defense in the NHL of the last 25 years... I mean lol?

He's signed how many players now as FAs or brought over in trades? In 7 years one guy has gotten better since arriving and been a nice bonus (Zub). Literally everyone else has been as advertised at best or worse.

 

[Sweatred]

Could Dorion coach a novice hockey team? Deal with contentious issues? Communicate effectively to his players and parents? Make tough decisions and explain them? Could he even identify which players to play where? I see no evidence of that!!!!

Yes - Dorion could coach a novice hockey team. An org would put him in place long before you.

What you see if sorta irrelevant - nobody is begging you to direct a hockey operation let alone direct novice minor hockey … mainly because they have better options who do “see” the traits they are looking for.

Give it a shot and share the parent survey with us when you are done.

 

[Xspyrit]

He's signed how many players now as FAs or brought over in trades? In 7 years one guy has gotten better since arriving and been a nice bonus (Zub). Literally everyone else has been as advertised at best or worse.

Dadonov was a nice attempt but was already 31 y/o, already on decline apparently. At least Dorion got out of the contract nicely

Finding Anton Forsberg as a waivers pick up then signing him could be good but it better not turn out like the Condon contract. Nilsson's situation was a bit similar too but he was done because of concussions (not Dorion's fault)

One of Dorion biggest fails if not the BIGGEST was not acquire enough veteran talent to surround and support/guide the young core. Our young players have been thrown to the wolves for the most part. We're lucky they seem to be strong characters, we could have ruined several young players

For example, how hard you think it is for a 5'10 foreign 21 y/o D-man to learn to play in the NHL playing with Josh freaking Brown?

 

[aragorn]

He's signed how many players now as FAs or brought over in trades? In 7 years one guy has gotten better since arriving and been a nice bonus (Zub). Literally everyone else has been as advertised at best or worse.

Tkachuk has been much better than most who opposed him being drafted thought possible. Batherson has continuousely been getting better every yr since they drafted him & has become one of the best players on the team. When we traded for Norris most here thought he would be a middle six centre at best, but he too has become better since that trade & won rookie of the yr in the AHL & second in rookie of the yr in the NHL.

Formenton is another player that most considered a 3rd liner at best & is now playing 2nd line LW with Stutzle. C. Brown never gets enough credit on here for being their most complete player & is used the most by the coach. Chabot has become a great defenceman since he was drafted & has Norris potential IMO & Zub has become their best stay at home defenceman. Over the next few yrs I expect that a few more of their prospects will improve & join the team & make it better.

 

[Knave]

Tkachuk has been much better than most who opposed him being drafted thought possible. Batherson has continuousely been getting better every yr since they drafted him & has become one of the best players on the team. When we traded for Norris most here thought he would be a middle six centre at best, but he too has become better since that trade & won rookie of the yr in the AHL & second in rookie of the yr in the NHL.

Formenton is another player that most considered a 3rd liner at best & is now playing 2nd line LW with Stutzle. C. Brown never gets enough credit on here for being their most complete player & is used the most by the coach. Chabot has become a great defenceman since he was drafted & has Norris potential IMO & Zub has become their best stay at home defenceman. Over the next few yrs I expect that a few more of their prospects will improve & join the team & make it better.

Norris will be an interesting contract negotiation. His shooting percentage was very high this year.

Of the top 50 goalscorers this past season - four had shooting percentages of 20% or higher. One had a shooting percentage higher than Norris.

1. Brock Nelson
2. Josh Norris
3. Chris Kreider
4. Gabriel Landeskog

I know people look at last season and see a 40+ goal pace but I'm not as convinced Josh Norris will be able to realize 40+ goals.

 

[aragorn]

Norris will be an interesting contract negotiation. His shooting percentage was very high this year.

Of the top 50 goalscorers this past season - four had shooting percentages of 20% or higher. One had a shooting percentage higher than Norris.

1. Brock Nelson
2. Josh Norris
3. Chris Kreider
4. Gabriel Landeskog

I know people look at last season and see a 40+ goal pace but I'm not as convinced Josh Norris will be able to realize 40+ goals.

While I imagine he will be fine on the PP & do well, it will depend on how much Batherson plays on the top line 5 on 5 that might matter more. If they decide to play Batherson with Stutzle to create more scoring from the second line that will hurt the top line given that Joseph isn't as good a playmaker & needs to be setup himself. Maybe Norris turns into more of a playmaker & makes up his pts with assists.

 

[lancepitlick]

Yes - Dorion could coach a novice hockey team. An org would put him in place long before you.

What you see if sorta irrelevant - nobody is begging you to direct a hockey operation let alone direct novice minor hockey … mainly because they have better options who do “see” the traits they are looking for.

Give it a shot and share the parent survey with us when you are done.

Your only argument is appeal to authority. He must be good or else he wouldn't be where he is. Despite providing numerous examples of people who were where they were and were proven to be terrible at their job.

I'm sure if I wanted to dedicate all of my time and energy to being a peewee hockey coach I could. Newsflash: I have zero desire to coach pee wee hockey and I'm not sure what your point has to do with Dorion being an abysmal GM.

I've devoted zero seconds of my life to being a hockey executive or coach. Dorion has and he is still this terrible.

I see no reason why I couldn't be like Daryl Morey and be the 5th worst GM in the league rather than the absolute worst.

The only way Dorion could have been worse is trading away Top 10 picks for total bums or picking players at those spots that were crazy reaches and ultimately useless.

Despite that the team could eventually be good since the NHL rewards ineptitude with high draft picks.

 

[Sweatred]

Your only argument is appeal to authority. He must be good or else he wouldn't be where he is. Despite providing numerous examples of people who were where they were and were proven to be terrible at their job.

I'm sure if I wanted to dedicate all of my time and energy to being a peewee hockey coach I could. Newsflash: I have zero desire to coach pee wee hockey and I'm not sure what your point has to do with Dorion being an abysmal GM.

I've devoted zero seconds of my life to being a hockey executive or coach. Dorion has and he is still this terrible.

I see no reason why I couldn't be like Daryl Morey and be the 5th worst GM in the league rather than the absolute worst.

The only way Dorion could have been worse is trading away Top 10 picks for total bums or picking players at those spots that were crazy reaches and ultimately useless.

Despite that the team could eventually be good since the NHL rewards ineptitude with high draft picks.

I think I’ve said this 5 times. I don’t think Dorion is good. If this was a “do you think Dorion is good” vote I’d vote “no”.

I just don’t think you’re better.

 

[R We A Team]

Some pretty deluded people in here. Dorion is far from the worst GM in history. Talk about hyper-bole. How many of you genius GM are going to be in the playoffs when you are in the midst of a total tear down? Oh no we never made the playoffs for 5 whole years... cue the drama queens.

The past two years are unprecedented with Covid kinda spoiling things, so I personally don't hold them against Dorion at all.

As far as restocking the team anew, well so far it's actually starting to look like a fun, entertaining, hard hitting team. so again, credit to Dorion for sticking by his picks and not the crowds favorites.

Is he perfect? Nope, Are you?

Funny how every one in hockey is talking about how the Sens are looking like they are a team on the rise. How can that be if Dorion is such a tool? Let me guess... "Lucky"??

Can't wait for next season to start already!!! After all We R A Team right?

 

[AchtzehnBaby]

Some pretty deluded people in here. Dorion is far from the worst GM in history. Talk about hyper-bole. How many of you genius GM are going to be in the playoffs when you are in the midst of a total tear down? Oh no we never made the playoffs for 5 whole years... cue the drama queens.

The past two years are unprecedented with Covid kinda spoiling things, so I personally don't hold them against Dorion at all.

As far as restocking the team anew, well so far it's actually starting to look like a fun, entertaining, hard hitting team. so again, credit to Dorion for sticking by his picks and not the crowds favorites.

Is he perfect? Nope, Are you?

Funny how every one in hockey is talking about how the Sens are looking like they are a team on the rise. How can that be if Dorion is such a tool? Let me guess... "Lucky"??

Can't wait for next season to start already!!! After all We R A Team right?

Amen Brother. Amen.

 

[NyQuil]

I'm changing my vote.