Do you think you would have outperformed Dorion?

[Golden_Jet]

is it still as close if we did it now?

No, because you still would of had to do everything under Melnyk’s lack of funds, and his approval.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

No, because you still would of had to do everything under Melnyk’s lack of funds.

so sit back and accumulate lots of picks and prospects and cap space for the future of the team?

we wish.

 

[branch]

Lol. Well, statistics would tell us there'd be a few fellas here up for that task.

Seriously though guys, don't take it as a defence of Dorion, I just mean there's bound to be a lot of tasks as a GM we'd have no clue how to do. A better question for this would have been something like, "Could you have made better personnel decisions than Dorion from this list of X, Y & Z?" maybe that's even sort of what they meant and not the all encompassing responsibilities of the position, but do you think you'd know what paperwork is required to say call up or send down a player? Or where it needs to go to? I don't.

I am a reasonable guy but honestly I'm 100% serious that I believe I could have conducted GM operations for the Ottawa Senators in a way more credible manner

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

As a GM Pierre Dorion is a better Amateur Scout. I think he is too petty and insecure to be a good Manager and Managing is part of the GM job. He has no Management formal education and by many accounts treats people poorly.
I think many people think he failed in his job as a GM with his vision of a rebuild and his execution of the rebuild and in building strong relationships with agents and other GMs.

Now as a scout.. And I personally really don't think he is a great scout but I think he is an adequate NHL amateur scout. A NHL caliber scout that can work in that capacity in most if not all organizations. He would have learned a lot about amateur scouting through his Dad growing up and being in and around that job for many years. I think his abilities , even if they are not at the top by NHL standards, in this area surpass the vast majority of fans. I think this is where Dorion belongs in hockey. Evaluate 17/18/19 yo players. Share your evaluations with your employer. Answer questions that are asked.

 

[thinkwild]

I don’t know if I could have done a better job. Probably not. But I think another interesting question is the path you would have taken.

My theory has always been that the rebuild started with the Zibanejad trade. I remember at that time saying there was no way Melnyk would pay EK what he was due in a couple of years. If I assume that Dorion was told that after he is forced to not re-sign EK, he will be doing a complete teardown to the cap floor with his surprising early new 3 year GM contract. This which will make everyone hate him. Then he can restore his reputation by what he rebuilt in those 3 years. All the moves kinda make more sense to me if I assume they were made within that prism.

So what if that was the case? You were the GM just before the Mika trade. You know you have one last chance to win with EK and Stone before you will have to go Mike Milbury and trade them all out of town

Would you focus on that one last chance with EK and Stone? Give them a best shot. And then rely of 5 years of unparalleled cap floor spending to rebuild? Or focus on maxing out the rebuild by trading everyone at peak value and focus on getting as much to restart with as possible?

Today it seems sort of easy to choose the optimize the rebuild path. But at the time, or say the next time this happens, which way would you focus on?

 

[Hale The Villain]

It's not an appeal to authority, I'm not saying Dorion made the correct moves because he's a professional, I'm saying people need to recognize that they don't have the experience to step into a position and be successful at the highest level in the world.

If anything it's a dunning Kruger effect argument

He was a nepotism hire 30 years ago, since then these worked in the business, his lack of credentials to get hired 30 years ago isn't relevant, he currently has decades of real world experience that I'm fairly sure you don't. Maybe if the question was would you have been a better scout 30 yrs ago than Dorion, nepotism hire would be relevant, but that ship sailed.


Do you have a degree in sports management, or any relevant experience? I'm curious because apparently you think you have a grasp on what is required to be a GM.

Well it's not surprising that some posters think they'd do a better job, but maybe not for the reasons you think.

The argument made in this thread is not that one needs to necessarily be successful if they were thrust into the GM role relative to other GMs, rather they would just need to be better than Dorion, a historically incompetent boob. That's much more achievable.

His experience was almost entirely in amateur scouting. By all accounts he did a great job in that role. Peter Principle held in this case. Got promoted to management because Bryan Murray's heir apparent Tim Murray jumped ship for Buffalo, and then Bryan got sick and in a little over 2 years he was the GM. He fell ass backwards into a role that he had little to no experience in and proceeded to turn this franchise into a laughing stock.

Almost every time he made a trade call or put pen to paper on a UFA signing it worked out terribly. That's why some rando without Dorion's "experience" could very well have done a better job. All he would have to do is sit back and let Trent Mann find gems through the draft and this team would be in much better shape than it is now.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

I am a reasonable guy but honestly I'm 100% serious that I believe I could have conducted GM operations for the Ottawa Senators in a way more credible manner

Well, you're more confident than I.

I do think that there's aspects I might have handled better, particularly from a planning and assessment perspective more so than when under the bright lights, but it's hard to make up for experience with some things, nor is everything able to be self taught. I'm thinking the nitty gritty. Like how the F do I send a player to Belleville? No clue. How do I finalize a trade, etc. Do I have access to Dorion's emails to at least see a precedent or do I literally have to figure it out on my own? I suspect there is some pretty advanced stuff happening at times that takes some specific knowledge and knowhow.

 

[HF Reader]

You're a rando thinking you can run a billion dollar business, who's being egotistical here?

Something went wrong here. That is not my quote. I think you are quoting Agent Zub. Please check.

 

[JungleBeat]

Give credit to his scouting dept which was ok. Literally everything else I’m sure people on here could have done better

 

[Micklebot]

Something went wrong here. That is not my quote. I think you are quoting Agent Zub. Please check.

I'll fix that,.... Sometimes the quotes mess up when you quote multiple posts and delete one of them before posting...

 

[HF Reader]

I'll fix that,.... Sometimes the quotes mess up when you quote multiple posts and delete one of them before posting...

No problem. Thanks. I had to go back to see if my inner egotistical person had taken over!

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Well, you're more confident than I.

I do think that there's aspects I might have handled better, particularly from a planning and assessment perspective more so than when under the bright lights, but it's hard to make up for experience with some things, nor is everything able to be self taught. I'm thinking the nitty gritty. Like how the F do I send a player to Belleville? No clue. How do I finalize a trade, etc. Do I have access to Dorion's emails to at least see a precedent or do I literally have to figure it out on my own? I suspect there is some pretty advanced stuff happening at times that takes some specific knowledge and knowhow.

we aren't talking about that stuff though. that's just menial chores and paperwork that many jobs have and are easily learnt.

what we are talking about is the higher order evaluation of hockey teams, players, and overall vision. would you have done that better than dorion?

that is what makes a gm awful, bad, good or great. not he paperwork stuff, that is not important for this question.

 

[Golden_Jet]

we aren't talking about that stuff though. that's just menial chores and paperwork that many jobs have and are easily learnt.

what we are talking about is the higher order evaluation of hockey teams, players, and overall vision. would you have done that better than dorion?

that is what makes a gm awful, bad, good or great. not he paperwork stuff, that is not important for this question.

Well it kind of is important, when your the only one on staff, and need to do everything.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

we aren't talking about that stuff though. that's just menial chores and paperwork that many jobs have and are easily learnt.

what we are talking about is the higher order evaluation of hockey teams, players, and overall vision. would you have done that better than dorion?

that is what makes a gm awful, bad, good or great. not he paperwork stuff, that is not important for this question.

The bolded is not something I would necessarily agree with. I'd bet a lot of what they work with is not so easily learned and that's what I was referring to. I don't think I could "learn" how to be a lawyer on the job either. But ya, I'm sure that's not what you guys were going for, but then that was never specified either, so I think that adds to the way people see the original question.

Could I do the job and all the requirements of it? No, I couldn't, 100%. It would be a disaster I'm sure.

Do I think I could have made some better decisions, especially in some isolated cases? Sure, no doubt in my mind.

 

[swiftwin]

Presumably.

I'm guessing those with enough self awareness to say 'no' did so because they recognize they'd also be awful NHL GMs given all likely have zero or close to zero relevant experience, as opposed to saying no because they thought Dorion did a particular good job.

Not only that, but logically, anyone who said no back then can't change their minds after the fact. If they have to change their minds with the power of hindsight, the answer clearly should remain no.

we aren't talking about that stuff though. that's just menial chores and paperwork that many jobs have and are easily learnt.

what we are talking about is the higher order evaluation of hockey teams, players, and overall vision. would you have done that better than dorion?

that is what makes a gm awful, bad, good or great. not he paperwork stuff, that is not important for this question.

Lmfao. This is how @Agent Zub costs the team 3 first round picks instead of one.

[
You're a rando thinking you can run a billion dollar business, who's being egotistical here?

Which is hilarious considering @Agent Zub wanted to give Zub a $7M+ contract.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Not only that, but logically, anyone who said no back then can't change their minds after the fact. If they have to change their minds with the power of hindsight, the answer clearly should remain no.


Lmfao. This is how @Agent Zub costs the team 3 first round picks instead of one.


Which is hilarious considering @Agent Zub wanted to give Zub a $7M+ contract.

where did i say i wanted to give Zub 7m?

I asked the forum if it came down to it would they give Zub 5.8 or let him walk. obviously you want him much cheaper as that is the near max for what Zub could get. But I wanted to see how people valued him for the team. would they 'overpay" for Zub or not.

but guess what Zub type player is exactly what this team is desperate for and we'd swap Chabot or Chyhcrun for another Zub even at 5.8 in a heartbeat.


Also you realize that Dorion most likely committed fraud and that's why it was such a big deal?

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Has anyone here sent in their resume to Mike Andlauer, so he can hire them, and he can let Steve Staios concentrate on being the POHO?

 

[Mark Stones Spleen]

Not only that, but logically, anyone who said no back then can't change their minds after the fact. If they have to change their minds with the power of hindsight, the answer clearly should remain no

This isn't true though. I'm not foolish enough to think I could be a professional GM, but he's made even more critical mistakes over time. Giving up big assets for another LHD with no experience on the right side is a problem. Keeping a coach that was making these players worse is a problem.

Not honoring a player's NTC that results in a loss of a first rounder is the icing on the cake. This was easily preventable. Trying to pull a fast one over another GM is so absurdly stupid.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

We are lucky that we only lost one 1st round pick. and i bet we only lost one because it was new ownership.

ask yourselves if you would have committed fraud as gm of the ottawa senators.

if you wouldn't, congratulations.

you would have been a better GM than pierre dorion.

 

[DrEasy]

Well, you're more confident than I.

I do think that there's aspects I might have handled better, particularly from a planning and assessment perspective more so than when under the bright lights, but it's hard to make up for experience with some things, nor is everything able to be self taught. I'm thinking the nitty gritty. Like how the F do I send a player to Belleville? No clue. How do I finalize a trade, etc. Do I have access to Dorion's emails to at least see a precedent or do I literally have to figure it out on my own? I suspect there is some pretty advanced stuff happening at times that takes some specific knowledge and knowhow.

There are rules in any business, I am sure if you were the GM full time you would: 1) learn the rules, and 2) hire people who do. And it's not like Dorion aced that stuff, see Dadonov.

GM is a management job. In baseball we've seen Harvard types take over such positions and win. It is not far-fetched to think similar types could win in hockey too. There's still some old school thinking that believes having played in the NHL helps in this role, and maybe that's true, but then again Dorion didn't do that either...

People skills help. Surrounding yourself with competent people, so you don't need to do everything. All things that have nothing to do with hockey per se, except maybe having some prior connections so you can find and hire the right people.

I agree with @Hale The Villain . It's not rocket science. I'm not saying I'd be a good GM, but could I do better than Dorion? Yes, I think I could. The bar is extremely low.

 

[Beech]

The thread is: would you have outperformed Dorion?

effectively, the assumption is, all of us answering have sufficient experience to be made GM.. and now, it is the decisions and moves that we are judged on.

In reading 5000-10000 posts on HF board the last 4 years. I believe that a sizeable chunk of people on here, would have made better decisions and moves. And thus outperformed him.

As for experience..

Justin Trudeau had none.. we elected him Prime Minister and then re-elected him.. twice.. He looks after 39 Million people and a few trillion dollars in GDP, GNP, and every other P. He also administers a modest army, a nation with nuclear knowledge (we have never used it to build a bomb.

Marc Sutcliff was a media man. and ran marathons.....He use to post on Tri-Rudy all the time.. Never held office, but we elected him Mayor. We trust him to run a city of 1,000,000 people and a budget of some 6 billion and a GDP, GNP, etc at probably around 500 billion dollars (all of Ottawa's net worth less industry).

Goldie Ghamari, is in her early 30's, Has been my MPP for 4 years now.. Shows up at my door, dressed like a teenage girl, babbles about those Liberals.. and we elect her... A province of 15 million a budget of 200 billion dollars, I will spare you the GDP, etc... We elected a man who never held office.. Whose claim to fame is a brother who admitted to using cocaine.

Meanwhile Joe Biden has been in politics for 55 years, was a VP and there are questions about his performance. he may not get re-elected.. We booted Harper out as PM.. he was in politics since birth.

 

[Micklebot]

There are rules in any business, I am sure if you were the GM full time you would: 1) learn the rules, and 2) hire people who do. And it's not like Dorion aced that stuff, see Dadonov.

This team was known for running with a skeleton crew, that potentially plays into things like the Dadonov situation,

I do believe issues like how understaffed the team was and the influence of Melnyk get underestimated, there's also the pressure to make moves to preserve your job that most people likely succumb to despite thinking they'd be above that, or to sell tickets over long term on ice success,