Do you think you would have outperformed Dorion?

[Sweatred]

Like how Stepan had a newborn child and was forced to leave his wife and children behind in the middle of a pandemic?

That kind of info?

No … more like stuff and I don’t know … like who rejected trades with their NTC’s and financial implications etc and of course stuff in the business I’m just clueless/unaware about that limit player movement beyond video game stuff.

What’s the highest position of responsibility you’ve been subjected to in minor or pro sport ? Basically everything above that for me.

 

[JackieDaytona]

Stepan brought nothing (skill, leadership, stability) that he was supposed to, was not a fit here, was not great for some time before he was acquired.

Many people here felt it was a poor acquisition, and most felt we overpaid. In retrospect, that was correct.

It doesn’t matter exactly why, imo, it was a bad move and a bad decision by management and indicative of poor pro scouting.

Not sure why anyone is trying to dress it up as anything else.

Dorion/ mgmt made some terrible moves. They’ve made good ones too. Especially recently, it’s been great. Super optimistic about the future of this team, Dorion and co are getting the credit they deserve. But I’m not able to be a revisionist about clear blunders of the recent past, regardless of rationale or limitations.

 

[Ice-Tray]

Stepan brought nothing (skill, leadership, stability) that he was supposed to, was not a fit here, was not great for some time before he was acquired.

Many people here felt it was a poor acquisition, and most felt we overpaid. In retrospect, that was correct.

It doesn’t matter exactly why, imo, it was a bad move and a bad decision by management and indicative of poor pro scouting.

Not sure why anyone is trying to dress it up as anything else.

Dorion/ mgmt made some terrible moves. They’ve made good ones too. Especially recently, it’s been great. Super optimistic about the future of this team, Dorion and co are getting the credit they deserve. But I’m not able to be a revisionist about clear blunders of the recent past, regardless of rationale or limitations.

Norris has specifically mentioned him as a mentor, but regardless, it was a move that didn’t pan out as hoped for sure.

 

[JD1]

Stepan brought nothing (skill, leadership, stability) that he was supposed to, was not a fit here, was not great for some time before he was acquired.

Many people here felt it was a poor acquisition, and most felt we overpaid. In retrospect, that was correct.

It doesn’t matter exactly why, imo, it was a bad move and a bad decision by management and indicative of poor pro scouting.

Not sure why anyone is trying to dress it up as anything else.

Dorion/ mgmt made some terrible moves. They’ve made good ones too. Especially recently, it’s been great. Super optimistic about the future of this team, Dorion and co are getting the credit they deserve. But I’m not able to be a revisionist about clear blunders of the recent past, regardless of rationale or limitations.

Stepan played 20 games for us and got hurt. Missed the rest of the season.

Followed that up playing 58 games for a 116 point Carolina team and won 56% of his faceoffs.

There's really no case at all to be made that he wasn't a good enough player to be dressed night in and night out for a bottom end team like ours. We needed some veteran support. He was a well regarded character guy and although he was on the down swing, he could still play and his playing 58 games for a first place cup contending team the year after is evidence of that.

My memory is a little fuzzy but iirc his cap hit was of value because we needed to reach the floor

Every GM makes all kinds of deals every year. Some work great, other flop. In Stepan's case, his injury pretty much negates how it may have turned out hockey wise.

It's certainly lessening, but there's still a factor on the board of looking for managerial incompetence in every move made. You win some deals, you lose deals. Some deals are never as straight forward as it seems because there's considerations that we the unknowing public don't know.

And it's never as easy as we coulda had this guy or that guy. Getting players to go to a team in clear rebuild mode is not easy. Players don't like it (look at Kessel's comments about Arizona).

There's no path to say we traded for X but could of had Y for free. That's only valid if Y would sign here and there's a mountain of evidence that supports players not wanting to sign to nurse a team through rebuilding.

The Stepan deal didn't work out. If it helps you sleep better at night to believe it didn't work out because Dorion is an idiot, well, enjoy your nights sleep I guess

 

[SlapJack]

I have completely ignored this thread because it seemed a bit ridiculous honestly. A bad GM will typically know more about this stuff then 99% of everyone, that's why they get put in that position. So many factors are involved in every transaction that are not known to the public, just like a lot of decisions made by management in the Joe jobs we toil at everyday. GM's are subject to the pressures above and below them, fan expectations, and basic people problems.

Yet more than half of the posters think they can do better? That's similar to 90% of people believe they are above average intelligence lol

 

[Sweatred]

I have completely ignored this thread because it seemed a bit ridiculous honestly. A bad GM will typically know more about this stuff then 99% of everyone, that's why they get put in that position. So many factors are involved in every transaction that are not known to the public, just like a lot of decisions made by management in the Joe jobs we toil at everyday. GM's are subject to the pressures above and below them, fan expectations, and basic people problems.

Yet more than half of the posters think they can do better? That's similar to 90% of people believe they are above average intelligence lol

You would think this would be obvious … I just wish the results were public … it would nicely set a baseline position for any potential debate that may occur if you knew whoever was someone who thought they know more about hockey than a career hockey exec holding the top position.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

is it still as close if we did it now?

 

[Micklebot]

is it still as close if we did it now?

Presumably.

I'm guessing those with enough self awareness to say 'no' did so because they recognize they'd also be awful NHL GMs given all likely have zero or close to zero relevant experience, as opposed to saying no because they thought Dorion did a particular good job.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Presumably.

I'm guessing those with enough self awareness to say 'no' did so because they recognize they'd also be awful NHL GMs given all likely have zero or close to zero relevant experience, as opposed to saying no because they thought Dorion did a particular good job.

Nobody here could hack the nuts and bolts of the job. Safe to say that much is true.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

Nobody here could hack the nuts and bolts of the job. Safe to say that much is true.

true i doubt many here would swallow melnyks nuts the way dorion was willing to.

 

[branch]

Nobody here could hack the nuts and bolts of the job. Safe to say that much is true.

Try me

 

[DanyHeatley]

2016-2017:
Not trade Zibanejad
Keep the 2017 core and add depth from FA
Protect Methot

Keep/Resign core players:
Karlsson, Stone, Zibanejad, Duchene, Methot, Pageau, Chabot, Ceci

Trade:
Hoffman, Ryan, Phanuef

2018-2019
Rookies Batherson, Paul and Formenton arrive
Keep/Resign Demelo Duclair
1a/1b goalie tandem with Anderson and Daccord (until Daccord takes over)

2020 on wards, go from here
In comes Zub, Conor Brown and Watson
We lose some aging players

Roster:
Batherson(0.9) - Zibanejad(8.5) - Stone(8)
Formenton(0.9) - Duchene(6) - Duclair(1.6)
Paul(0.75) - Pageau(5) - Brown(3)
xxxx - xxxx - Watson(1)

Demelo(3) - Karlsson(9)
Chabot(8) - Zub(2.5)
xxxx - Ceci(1.2)

Daccord(3), Anderson(3)

That’s 65.25M in salary, and missing just 3 roster spots
Salary cap in 2020/21 is 81.5M
So still ~15M below cap

 

[Xspyrit]

Dadonov was a nice attempt but was already 31 y/o, already on decline apparently. At least Dorion got out of the contract nicely

Finding Anton Forsberg as a waivers pick up then signing him could be good but it better not turn out like the Condon contract. Nilsson's situation was a bit similar too but he was done because of concussions (not Dorion's fault)

One of Dorion biggest fails if not the BIGGEST was not acquire enough veteran talent to surround and support/guide the young core. Our young players have been thrown to the wolves for the most part. We're lucky they seem to be strong characters, we could have ruined several young players

For example, how hard you think it is for a 5'10 foreign 21 y/o D-man to learn to play in the NHL playing with Josh freaking Brown?

The rest was bang on but dang I was wrong on that one. Well, maybe the "strong characters" one too lol

 

[Burrowsaurus]

I mean legit. Trade your stars for firsts and then let your scouts do their thing and don’t do anything else. And it’s a better job.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

true i doubt many here would swallow melnyks nuts the way dorion was willing to.

Lol. Well, statistics would tell us there'd be a few fellas here up for that task.

Seriously though guys, don't take it as a defence of Dorion, I just mean there's bound to be a lot of tasks as a GM we'd have no clue how to do. A better question for this would have been something like, "Could you have made better personnel decisions than Dorion from this list of X, Y & Z?" maybe that's even sort of what they meant and not the all encompassing responsibilities of the position, but do you think you'd know what paperwork is required to say call up or send down a player? Or where it needs to go to? I don't.

Try me

 

[Burrowsaurus]

2016-2017:
Not trade Zibanejad
Keep the 2017 core and add depth from FA
Protect Methot

Keep/Resign core players:
Karlsson, Stone, Zibanejad, Duchene, Methot, Pageau, Chabot, Ceci

Trade:
Hoffman, Ryan, Phanuef

2018-2019
Rookies Batherson, Paul and Formenton arrive
Keep/Resign Demelo Duclair
1a/1b goalie tandem with Anderson and Daccord (until Daccord takes over)

2020 on wards, go from here
In comes Zub, Conor Brown and Watson
We lose some aging players

Roster:
Batherson - Zibanejad - Stone
Formenton - Duchene - Duclair
Paul - Pageau - Brown
xxxx - xxxx - Watson

Demelo - Karlsson
Chabot - Zub
xxxx - Ceci

Daccord, Anderson

You weren’t keeping core players in 2017. It was mandated by ownership to rebuild.

true i doubt many here would swallow melnyks nuts the way dorion was willing to.

You asked about doing Dorion job. Part of Dorion job was doing what his owner wants.

 

[Hale The Villain]

Presumably.

I'm guessing those with enough self awareness to say 'no' did so because they recognize they'd also be awful NHL GMs given all likely have zero or close to zero relevant experience, as opposed to saying no because they thought Dorion did a particular good job.

Pretty much anyone would have done a better job than Dorion if they had the self awareness you speak of and recognized they were in over their heads in the position and thus would do the rational thing and mostly sit on their hands.

It's the old Dave Nonis vs Potato debate: Who Had A Better Free Agency Day: Dave Nonis or a Potato?

Often times the best move is doing nothing. Dorion would still have a job if he didn't keep picking up the phone and destroying the team one trade at a time.

 

[Do Make Say Think]

With how he seemingly lied to Vegas to get them to take Daddy?

I'm not sure I wouldn't have been better.

What a complete moron and a disaster of a GM. He's in the all-time worst tier.

 

[Micklebot]

Pretty much anyone would have done a better job than Dorion if they had the self awareness you speak of and recognized they were in over their heads in the position and thus would do the rational thing and mostly sit on their hands.

It's the old Dave Nonis vs Potato debate: Who Had A Better Free Agency Day: Dave Nonis or a Potato?

Often times the best move is doing nothing. Dorion would still have a job if he didn't keep picking up the phone and destroying the team one trade at a time.

Here's the problem with your theory, it ignores reality. Dorion would have been fired long ago if he did nothing since Melnyk was clearly involved.

It also ignores all the aspects of the job that are outside of the public's view,

If it makes you feel better about yourself to think you'd have done a better job, that's fine. Heck, maybe you would have, the problem is the information required to actually asses that simply isn't publicly available, so the rational thing to do is say probably not given the complete lack of relevance experience

It's the same thing as beer leaguers thinking they stood a chance against Bobby Ryan back in the 2016 offseason or D1 basketball players thinking they stood a chance against Brian Scalabrine, the worst among the top of the profession are going to be vastly more prepared to do a job than the average Joe, or even the well above average Joe.

 

[HF Reader]

Here's the problem with your theory, it ignore reality. Dorion would have been fired long ago if he did nothing since Melnyk was clearly involved.

It also ignores all the aspects of the job that are outside of the public's view,

If it makes you feel better about yourself to think you'd have done a better job, that's fine. Heck, maybe you would have, the problem is the information required to actually asses that simply isn't publicly available, so the rationale thing to do is say probably not given the complete lack of relevance experience

It's the same thing as beer leaguers thinking they stood a chance against Bobby Ryan back in the 2016 offseason or D1 basketball players thinking they stood a chance against Brian Scalabrine, the worst among the top of the profession are going to be vastly more prepared to do a job than the average Joe, or even the well above average Joe.

Tangentially related to your last paragraph, Preston Pearson, NFL running back, wrote his biography "Hearing the Noise" in which he describes how the "average Joe" has no idea what goes on at the pro level in sports. He notes that the average fan would die quickly on an NFL playing field.

The concept is not necessarily transferable to management but it relates to your point of how little we know as fans.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

It also ignores all the aspects of the job that are outside of the public's view,

If it makes you feel better about yourself to think you'd have done a better job, that's fine. Heck, maybe you would have, the problem is the information required to actually asses that simply isn't publicly available, so the rational thing to do is say probably not given the complete lack of relevance experience

It's the same thing as beer leaguers thinking they stood a chance against Bobby Ryan back in the 2016 offseason or D1 basketball players thinking they stood a chance against Brian Scalabrine, the worst among the top of the profession are going to be vastly more prepared to do a job than the average Joe, or even the well above average Joe.

dude you're comparing randos going up against professional athletes vs someone being able to be smarter or at least less egotistical than dorion.

 

[Agent Zuuuub]

professional athletes got to where they were because they spent their entire lives training and being better than anyone else. of course they are built different to the average person, they would destroy them.

you know how dorion got to the NHL? cuz his dad was the head scout of the maple leafs.

 

[Micklebot]

[

dude you're comparing randos going up against professional athletes vs someone being able to be smarter or at least less egotistical than dorion.

You're a rando thinking you can run a billion dollar business, who's being egotistical here?

 

[Hale The Villain]

Here's the problem with your theory, it ignores reality. Dorion would have been fired long ago if he did nothing since Melnyk was clearly involved.

It also ignores all the aspects of the job that are outside of the public's view,

If it makes you feel better about yourself to think you'd have done a better job, that's fine. Heck, maybe you would have, the problem is the information required to actually asses that simply isn't publicly available, so the rational thing to do is say probably not given the complete lack of relevance experience

It's the same thing as beer leaguers thinking they stood a chance against Bobby Ryan back in the 2016 offseason or D1 basketball players thinking they stood a chance against Brian Scalabrine, the worst among the top of the profession are going to be vastly more prepared to do a job than the average Joe, or even the well above average Joe.

Appeal to authority fallacy on display here.

This isn't anything like a random beer leaguer going up against an NHLer, this is a nepotism hire that got his job in hockey because of his daddy, despite never playing/coaching hockey at a high level.

This isn't rocket science. Dorion doesn't have an advanced degree in professional sports management. Ultimately we're talking about watching hockey for a living and trying to identify which players are good and which are not.

He proved to be absolutely terrible at that after falling ass backwards into the GM job and no one should be surprised if there are many on this site that would have done the job a hell of a lot better.

 

[Micklebot]

Appeal to authority fallacy on display here.

It's not an appeal to authority, I'm not saying Dorion made the correct moves because he's a professional, I'm saying people need to recognize that they don't have the experience to step into a position and be successful at the highest level in the world.

If anything it's a dunning Kruger effect argument.

This isn't anything like a random beer leaguer going up against an NHLer, this is a nepotism hire that got his job in hockey because of his daddy, despite never playing/coaching hockey at a high level.

He was a nepotism hire 30 years ago, since then these worked in the business, his lack of credentials to get hired 30 years ago isn't relevant, he currently has decades of real world experience that I'm fairly sure you don't. Maybe if the question was would you have been a better scout 30 yrs ago than Dorion, nepotism hire would be relevant, but that ship sailed.

This isn't rocket science. Dorion doesn't have an advanced degree in professional sports management. Ultimately we're talking about watching hockey for a living and trying to identify which players are good and which are not.

Do you have a degree in sports management, or any relevant experience? I'm curious because apparently you think you have a grasp on what is required to be a GM.

He proved to be absolutely terrible at that after falling ass backwards into the GM job and no one should be surprised if there are many on this site that would have done the job a hell of a lot better.

Well it's not surprising that some posters think they'd do a better job, but maybe not for the reasons you think.