Do you think this team is better or worse going into next season?

[arso40]

They better remove Tavares from the PP1 unit before they even consider removing anyone else, but with Bert gone I'm not sure who they'd add instead.

knies maybe

 

[Fogelhund]

They better remove Tavares from the PP1 unit before they even consider removing anyone else, but with Bert gone I'm not sure who they'd add instead.

Knies is the guy that they should be grooming to be a net front presence, kind of in the manner of JvR.

 

[conFABulator]

Knies is the guy that they should be grooming to be a net front presence, kind of in the manner of JvR.

This is a good example of the types of change that a new GM and new coach could make...and we need them to make.

We need to find some answers from within our roster and not just look to trades and FA.

Can Knies become a top power forward and ride shotgun with Matthews? Is 60 points reasonable with top minutes and PP time? Letting Bertuzzi walk creates this opportunity, as does moving Tavares off the top PP.

Can either Nylander or Marner become our 2C. This happening absolutely changes our depth chart and needs moving forward (I recently started a thread on depth chart and needs).

What happens if we give McMann an opportunity to be a contributor? Is Holmberg anything?

Obviously Cowan, Minten and Grebyonkin could solve some problems. Hirvonen or Tverberg?

Can Berube make anything from Liljegren? Talk about solving a problem internally. Can be be a top four for us? Niemela?

Woll is someone we are now betting on. Stolarz seems like the perfect tandem partner because we need Woll to be #1. What of Hildeby and Akhtyamov?

 

[REALTALK81]

At this point, who knows? Theoretically, you could argue that we have a better defense with the addition of Tanev and another puck mover in OEL. This could translate to less shots against and better transition. On the other hand, we lost Bertuzzi and Robertson's future is up in the air. So we may have taken a hit on offense. It will be interesting to see what the new coach can get out of his players. That more than anything will determine if this team is better than last year's team.

 

[Fogelhund]

This is a good example of the types of change that a new GM and new coach could make...and we need them to make.

We need to find some answers from within our roster and not just look to trades and FA.

Can Knies become a top power forward and ride shotgun with Matthews? Is 60 points reasonable with top minutes and PP time? Letting Bertuzzi walk creates this opportunity, as does moving Tavares off the top PP.

Can either Nylander or Marner become our 2C. This happening absolutely changes our depth chart and needs moving forward (I recently started a thread on depth chart and needs).

What happens if we give McMann an opportunity to be a contributor? Is Holmberg anything?

Obviously Cowan, Minten and Grebyonkin could solve some problems. Hirvonen or Tverberg?

Can Berube make anything from Liljegren? Talk about solving a problem internally. Can be be a top four for us? Niemela?

Woll is someone we are now betting on. Stolarz seems like the perfect tandem partner because we need Woll to be #1. What of Hildeby and Akhtyamov?

Knies should become a top power forward, and I do think 60 points is possible for him riding shotgun on the top line. Really, more should be possible.

I don't think Nylander or Marner ever really becomes C's. It would be nice if Nylander could make that transition, but it seems less and less likely. They've toyed with that idea, but it just hasn't worked.

Domi worked well with Matthews last year, but he was also a decent 3C.... so we'll see where that goes.

I'm looking forward to seeing if either, or both of Cowan and Grebyonkin can make an impact with the Leafs this year. Minten may need more development time in the AHL... we will see.

Hirvonen is an interesting one. Not great size, not great speed, not great offensively.... He's got great defensive IQ though, which will be his only chance of making it... some sort of defensive shut down and PK specialist. He's only 22, but I still feel he needs to have a significantly better year in the AHL to have hopes to take the next step. If he doesn't take that next step, he's probably going back to Europe next year.


Tverberg is also 22, and had a decent first AHL season. This year he really needs to move forward too, and become a PPG AHL player, or close too. He projects more as a hard working bottom six energy guy, and has some speed to his game. There is the possibility he makes it as a 4th line guy at some point, maybe as an injury callup this year, maybe next year. I wouldn't expect much more than that from him though.

Niemela has some game. Of course being small has it's challenges as a D man, but there is so much to like about his game, he has some Spurgeon like qualities.... he's kind of a dark horse, that might work out quite well, or not at all.

 

[thewave]

Better but not as improved as the competition in a lot of cases

 

[The Best Leafs Everr]

I think we run the same gong show for the coming year as well. It’s a good thing I stopped following this team too hard.

This team is never going to win anything and if they win it will be a miracle in itself so just watch the games you like and not everything.

 

[mjd1001]

I think the team is pretty much the same as last year. If you had to press me, I'd say SLIGHTLY better by the slimmest of margins. Matthews, Marner, and Nylander, and goaltending drive this team. Tavares is still a somewhat-more-than-complimentary piece.

On paper Tanev should help, but with how old he is getting that wall you hit where you go from good to usefule or even 'just another guy' can come at any time. The young guys like Knies and Minten and anyone else, I'm not as high on, they are just complimentary pieces at best to me.

Matthews and Nylander and Marner (yes Marner) should be enough to drive this team to the playoffs. Goaltending and how much everything around them does (or doesn't) fall apart is, again, going to be what makes this team a first round exit or not.

 

[MilkofthePoppy]

I think this team is going to take a step back. I think Stolarz and Tanev are mediocre signings.

 

[conFABulator]

Knies should become a top power forward, and I do think 60 points is possible for him riding shotgun on the top line. Really, more should be possible.

I don't think Nylander or Marner ever really becomes C's. It would be nice if Nylander could make that transition, but it seems less and less likely. They've toyed with that idea, but it just hasn't worked.

Domi worked well with Matthews last year, but he was also a decent 3C.... so we'll see where that goes.

I'm looking forward to seeing if either, or both of Cowan and Grebyonkin can make an impact with the Leafs this year. Minten may need more development time in the AHL... we will see.

Hirvonen is an interesting one. Not great size, not great speed, not great offensively.... He's got great defensive IQ though, which will be his only chance of making it... some sort of defensive shut down and PK specialist. He's only 22, but I still feel he needs to have a significantly better year in the AHL to have hopes to take the next step. If he doesn't take that next step, he's probably going back to Europe next year.


Tverberg is also 22, and had a decent first AHL season. This year he really needs to move forward too, and become a PPG AHL player, or close too. He projects more as a hard working bottom six energy guy, and has some speed to his game. There is the possibility he makes it as a 4th line guy at some point, maybe as an injury callup this year, maybe next year. I wouldn't expect much more than that from him though.

Niemela has some game. Of course being small has it's challenges as a D man, but there is so much to like about his game, he has some Spurgeon like qualities.... he's kind of a dark horse, that might work out quite well, or not at all.

You might be right about Nylander or Marner at C. We haven't really tried it though. Treliving suggested it last year and Keefe tried it for 10 days in camp. They have never tried Marner. I think we have to try to make it work for at least one of them. It's easier to find wingers and our $10+m guys have played it before. Make it work.

Yep, Domi working with AM gives us options to create depth by having each of the big three carrying (and perhaps centering) a line. Knies emerging helps with this also.

Cowan Matthews Domi
Knies Nylander McMann
Tavares Marner Robertson/Grebyonkin

Holmberg Kampf Jarnkrok

Why not? This is what we need to build a winner. Young guys contributing on ELCs. Let's start now. Cowan can't be a Marlie and Grebyonkin has an opt out for Europe if he doesn't make the Leafs.

Hirvonen had a lost year last year. His father died and then a serious eye injury. He could be exactly what we need on the fourth line. So could Minten and so could Tverberg. We shouldn't be paying guys $2M+ down there for much longer.

Niemela is one of this guys that we wish was bigger, stronger, or faster but he gets results everywhere he goes, including an impressive season with the Marlies. He is our best at being a top 4 among any prospects we have (Danford being too far away age wise).

 

[hobarth]

The Seattle Kraken had 100 points in 2022/23 and then won the first round of their playoffs, that was their 2nd year of existence.

Vegas in their very 1st year of existence managed 109 points, which put them 3rd in the Western Conference, they then went to and lost the Stanley Cup final.

The best we can say about the Leafs is they've made the playoffs for 8 straight years but we can also see that. that meagre accomplishment shouldn't be a feather in the Leaf's caps as even brand new expansion teams are exceeding or tying the Leafs.

What might we learn from this comparison, depth has a lot to do with winning both in the regular season and in the playoffs, TO can easily survive and I would venture thrive if Marner and Nylander were traded for more quality but not overpaid depth players. After next year and with sensical management TO should offer JT a considerably cheaper contract transferring him into a quality depth player.

Can anyone explain to me how signing a 34 year old to a 6 year contract when this player already is having difficulty finishing off any season, which means that his availability will always be in doubt, makes any sense? Singing a previously bought out player who's now 32 and giving him a 4 year contract is in any way sensible? Singing a perennial 60 to 70 point player to a 11.5 mil. contract, after his career season, for 8 years makes any sense, how many other teams have similarly paid players, how many other successful teams have similarly paid players, none I'll bet. Signing a player to a contract, which I assume is the case or it would not have been mentioned, on July 1, when that player hasn't a leg/knee to stand on.

It's horrible here in Leafdom.

 

[Evilhomer]

Can anyone explain to me how signing a 34 year old to a 6 year contract when this player already is having difficulty finishing off any season, which means that his availability will always be in doubt, makes any sense? Singing a previously bought out player who's now 32 and giving him a 4 year contract is in any way sensible?

That 34 year old was, as of the last game he played in 2024, arguably the best defensive defensemen in the league. There is no question that in 4 years he will degrade, but who cares. The same goes for the guy who was bought out and subsequently became a key player on a Cup winning team. What happens to this team in 4 years is irrelevant. It's all about the next two or three years. If they don't win the Cup during that stretch, this will transition to a rebuild.

 

[Nineteen67]

That 34 year old was, as of the last game he played in 2024, arguably the best defensive defensemen in the league. There is no question that in 4 years he will degrade, but who cares. The same goes for the guy who was bought out and subsequently became a key player on a Cup winning team. What happens to this team in 4 years is irrelevant. It's all about the next two or three years. If they don't win the Cup during that stretch, this will transition to a rebuild.

A Cup isn’t really a reasonable expectation. Next season looks like another write-off, but if they could get to an Eastern final in one of the next two years, I think most would consider it a somewhat successful era.

 

[hobarth]

That 34 year old was, as of the last game he played in 2024, arguably the best defensive defensemen in the league. There is no question that in 4 years he will degrade, but who cares. The same goes for the guy who was bought out and subsequently became a key player on a Cup winning team. What happens to this team in 4 years is irrelevant. It's all about the next two or three years. If they don't win the Cup during that stretch, this will transition to a rebuild.

Who considered Tanev the best defensive d-man in hockey, Trvling?

I can think of at 4 d-men on Florida that were better than OEL, OEL was a master of protected minutes.

It's nice to live in the hockey haze that we Leaf fans have been fed for years but the reality is TO will only go as far as those top 3 forwards and we've seen for too many years they aren't enough, Tanev & OEL are purely window dressing.

 

[Evilhomer]

A Cup isn’t really a reasonable expectation. Next season looks like another write-off, but if they could get to an Eastern final in one of the next two years, I think most would consider it a somewhat successful era.

This team can win a Cup, but like most teams it will require some things to fall into place. It may be as simple as Florida taking a step back and the Leafs being relatively healthy.

 

[Evilhomer]

Who considered Tanev the best defensive d-man in hockey, Trvling?

I can think of at 4 d-men on Florida that were better than OEL, OEL was a master of protected minutes.

It's nice to live in the hockey haze that we Leaf fans have been fed for years but the reality is TO will only go as far as those top 3 forwards and we've seen for too many years they aren't enough, Tanev & OEL are purely window dressing.

Just about everyone. As for OEL, he won't need to be in Toronto's top four. He's an ancillary piece that will help on the power play. That's about it. If the Leafs win, it won't be because of OEL.

 

[hobarth]

If I'm thinking best d-men in the NHL, the first thing I think of is how good is that d-man at getting the puck out of his own zone and helping to keep it out, I wouldn't put Tanev in the category of Ekblad, Forsling, McAvoy, Dahling, Seider, Hedman. These d-men are just from TO's division and there's probably as many or more from each of the other 3 divisions. I would refer to Tanev as a goalie extender who absorbs enough abuse via shots and physical play that goalie's lives in the NHL are extended. The Tanev contract is the same as Marleau's contract, possibly good for 2 years, cross our fingers, let's hope TO won't need to use more than a 1st to say goodbye to his contract when his decline is no longer excusable. Any contract signed by a player after his 35th birthday isn't buyoutable.

On TO's current roster OEL has the 3rd highest salary among d-men so I would hope that TO signed OEL with the intention of using him as the 3rd best d-man on the team and this all just brings me back to, how sad is the state of the Leaf roster.

 

[Byron Bitz]

I’d say slightly better and have a more balanced roster. I also think the team was really good last year just had some bad luck losing a razor close game 7 ot against a really good team so they don’t need to be that much better to get where we want to go. I really like Tanev, I thought he and Rielly made a great top pairing at the world championships. I’m also high on some of the young talent in our roster particularly Knies.

 

[Fogelhund]

If I'm thinking best d-men in the NHL, the first thing I think of is how good is that d-man at getting the puck out of his own zone and helping to keep it out, I wouldn't put Tanev in the category of Ekblad, Forsling, McAvoy, Dahling, Seider, Hedman. These d-men are just from TO's division and there's probably as many or more from each of the other 3 divisions. I would refer to Tanev as a goalie extender who absorbs enough abuse via shots and physical play that goalie's lives in the NHL are extended. The Tanev contract is the same as Marleau's contract, possibly good for 2 years, cross our fingers, let's hope TO won't need to use more than a 1st to say goodbye to his contract when his decline is no longer excusable. Any contract signed by a player after his 35th birthday isn't buyoutable.

On TO's current roster OEL has the 3rd highest salary among d-men so I would hope that TO signed OEL with the intention of using him as the 3rd best d-man on the team and this all just brings me back to, how sad is the state of the Leaf roster.

McCabe has the third highest salary among D-Men at $5 million this year. It just happens that someone else pays a portion of that salary.

 

[thusk]

Who considered Tanev the best defensive d-man in hockey, Trvling?

I can think of at 4 d-men on Florida that were better than OEL, OEL was a master of protected minutes.

It's nice to live in the hockey haze that we Leaf fans have been fed for years but the reality is TO will only go as far as those top 3 forwards and we've seen for too many years they aren't enough, Tanev & OEL are purely window dressing.

Tanev made his carreer by being one of top defensive D in the NHL. If it would not be the case, he would be at best a 3rd pair d because his defensive game is everything he bring to the game and i thibk he can have a pretty sinilar impact than What Methot had with Karlsson during best years of Erik Karlsson in his carreer. Methot never get enough credit for everything he did to make Karlsson looking better.

And no by himself, he's not a perfect D but using him with a guy like Rielly, you've got easily the best 1st pair leafs ever had last 20

Oel is leafs 4th Dmen... and between paying OEL 3,5 or a Edmundson or boosh at the same price, the choice is pretty easy and personally actually in florida D, the only 2 D better i see is Ekblad and Forsling. Mikkola played on 2nd pair last year because he was a better Partner for a high offensive Dmen like Montour, not because he was better than OEL, its pretty different.

 

[Mess]

It's nice to live in the hockey haze that we Leaf fans have been fed for years but the reality is TO will only go as far as those top 3 forwards and we've seen for too many years they aren't enough, Tanev & OEL are purely window dressing.

Did you forget a crucial word in your sentence above?

"TO will only go as far as those top 3 forwards and we've seen for too many years they aren't GOOD enough"

That said not all Leaf fans are caught in that haze and some Leaf fans very much want the core broken up, because when it comes to playoff performance because for too many years its not GOOD enough.

Your best players have to be your best players for a team to have success, and can't expect the window dressing to carry the team while, those that carry the highest cap hits,directly impacting that quality of depth, sit on the bench and pout and ghost their teammates.

 

[hobarth]

Did you forget a crucial word in your sentence above?

"TO will only go as far as those top 3 forwards and we've seen for too many years they aren't GOOD enough"

That said not all Leaf fans are caught in that haze and some Leaf fans very much want the core broken up, because when it comes to playoff performance because for too many years its not GOOD enough.

Your best players have to be your best players for a team to have success, and can't expect the window dressing to carry the team while, those that carry the highest cap hits,directly impacting that quality of depth, sit on the bench and pout and ghost their teammates.

TO has shown a yearly inability to score in the playoffs, the top 3 are part of the problem but so is TO's constant inability to address this issue, throwing money at pass their prime or even way pass their prime d-men doesn't address the true issue, forward depth or more precisely the quality of TO's forward depth.

Tanev & OEL are window dressing, named window dressing.

 

[Mess]

TO has shown a yearly inability to score in the playoffs, the top 3 are part of the problem but so is TO's constant inability to address this issue, throwing money at pass their prime or even way pass their prime d-men doesn't address the true issue, forward depth or more precisely the quality of TO's forward depth.

Tanev & OEL are window dressing, named window dressing.

Easy solution where you can't complain about the quality of the depth without addressing the elephant in the room that POOR Cap management is the obvious reason.

Too much cap in too few players ie 4 forwards = > 1/2 your salary cap only leaves the other 1/2 our cap for 8 forwards + 6 dmen + 2 goalie + 2 spares.

$88 mil Total Cap - 4 forwards = $46.65 mil leaving $41.35 mil for 18 qty (window dressing players at 2X Goalies and 6X Defense & 8X supporting forwards). Average player cap price $2.3 mil.

Not only is it a cap heavy crippling issue its that those 4 players are also OVERPAID by NHL comparables and very poor Bang for your Cap Buck come playoff time.

No offense, but people complaining about the quality of the depth can't see the forest for all the 4 Core trees when 3 players AM & JT & MM at $11 mil each $33 mil combined for 3 goals in a 7 game series is what is killing Leafs hopes performing like window dressing, Not the defensive dman in the 2nd pairing (window dressing) blocking shots and killing penalties and throwing hits..

When Mitch Marner @ $10.9 mil scores 1 goal and 3 points, and Tavares @ $11 mil scores 1 goal and 1 assist then that is your true window dressing performances. That hopefully is coming to an end soon with these 2. That reallocation of cap usage towards quality depth upgrading the window dressing.

 

[notDatsyuk]

Easy solution where you can't complain about the quality of the depth without addressing the elephant in the room that POOR Cap management is the obvious reason.

Too much cap in too few players ie 4 forwards = > 1/2 your salary cap only leaves the other 1/2 our cap for 8 forwards + 6 dmen + 2 goalie + 2 spares.

View attachment 895448

$88 mil Total Cap - 4 forwards = $46.65 mil leaving $41.35 mil for 18 qty (window dressing players at 2X Goalies and 6X Defense & 8X supporting forwards). Average player cap price $2.3 mil.

Not only is it a cap heavy crippling issue its that those 4 players are also OVERPAID by NHL comparables and very poor Bang for your Cap Buck come playoff time.

No offense, but people complaining about the quality of the depth can't see the forest for all the 4 Core trees when 3 players AM & JT & MM at $11 mil each $33 mil combined for 3 goals in a 7 game series is what is killing Leafs hopes performing like window dressing, Not the defensive dman in the 2nd pairing (window dressing) blocking shots and killing penalties and throwing hits..

When Mitch Marner @ $10.9 mil scores 1 goal and 3 points, and Tavares @ $11 mil scores 1 goal and 1 assist then that is your true window dressing performances. That hopefully is coming to an end soon with these 2. That reallocation of cap usage towards quality depth upgrading the window dressing.

I'm not sure 'elephant in the room' is quite the right metaphor, as (virtually) all of us see it and talk about it.

Unfortunately, we seem to be stuck with the four hoardsmen of our apocalypse, at least until next summer.

I guess that makes the relevant question "outside of those four, is the team better?"

 

[Roo]

Being one the top scoring teams in the regular season and the worst in the playoffs isn’t a personnel issue offensively at forward position; or at least I’m not convinced it’s the primary issue.

The entire team underperforming offensively in the playoffs repeatedly year after year, despite changing players, is indicative imo of bigger problems. Such as a coaching staff not knowing how to get the team to tighten up their defensive play without sacrificing the effectiveness of the offense to do it.

Our inability from the backend to move the puck effectively and generate point shots was a significant part of this, so it’s not entirely on the coaching but these things combined see us expending far too much time and energy simply trying to clear our zone.

It was far too common for our guys to chase the puck defensively for the better part of their shift and not have enough left in the tank to mount a meaningful counterattack or have to change to keep shifts short.

Wow, someone that gets it
This is why the core won’t change until Berube has had his time with the team.