Do you believe in Dubas?

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

No his results give me no reason to, and quite frankly should give NOBODY a reason to, because there are some there are just as many shit ones, 50/50 isn't good enough.

 

[ToneDog]

If you respect Doug MacLean, he was on Kyper and Bourne and I thought he had some interesting thoughts on the Leafs.

Sifting through the Leafs' rollercoaster start with Doug MacLean (sportsnet.ca)

Lost Hyman, blueline is not good enough, not sold on our goaltending and lack of experience behind the bench. Still easy to play against.

 

[PromisedLand]

He’s built a team with zero identity. Who are we? I haven’t the slightest. We’re easy to play against seems to be conventional wisdom, so there’s that.

And what is the team culture?

I don't know man.... This team has identity... its called "Dollars"

 

[The Masters]

no.
him, shanny and keefe all stink. the makeup of the team is bad. who cares about the talent. this isnt baseball. hockey is full of compete level, phyiscal and mental toughness... we have none of that... and there's been many seasons to come to that conclusion.

 

[Goose]

Neutral still, though the milk is starting to sour.

I liked our chances last year better than this year.

Playoff success is still a good bit of dice roll. Last year, the Leafs had multiple opportunities to close out a team that made the finals.

Now I'm leaning towards "this whole all the eggs in one basket thing like the NBA" isn't the BEST plan in the world, but I think it's possible it pays off.

16 teams make the playoffs, which means, all things even, each team has a 6% chance. It's just really #$%@ing hard to win championships in a 32 team league.

 

[Antropovsky]

If you commit to a retool now, you are admitting failures and are at risk to being fired....better to double down for management. Keefe just signed a 2 year deal and few games later fired? That would not look good for Dubas. I mean there really wasn't any pressure to sign him this quickly after another embarrassing playoff run...its not like he is gonna have alot of people banging at his door and there is no salary cap for coaches.

Even if they think they should make changes now, they might not over fear of losing their jobs. But I hope this is not the case.

 

[The Masters]

If you commit to a retool now, you are admitting failures and are at risk to being fired....better to double down for management. Keefe just signed a 2 year deal and few games later fired? That would not look good for Dubas. I mean there really wasn't any pressure to sign him this quickly after another embarrassing playoff run...its not like he is gonna have alot of people banging at his door and there is no salary cap for coaches.

Even if they think they should make changes now, they might not over fear of losing their jobs. But I hope this is not the case.

thats why they wont touch keefe or the core 4, and dubas and shanny will just die on their sword. 1-2 more years they will stretch this out, wasting fan's time on a dysfunctional team.

if i'm the owner, i'm pulling the plug now.

 

[socko]

If you look at the team this year, they are:

1) Noticeably slower, in fact I think you can safely call them a slow team now.
2) Less ability to score: Hyman is gone, Galchenyuk is gone, Matthews doesn't appear anywhere near 100% and lacks effort most nights, Ritchie is uber terrible, Tavares has been mostly awful until the Chicago game, Marner appears to be pouting.
3) Muzzin-Holl are just putrid.
4) Really miss Bogo.
5) Won't play Liljegren for whatever reason.

I give those credit who think its all going to be alright. That's not how I see it. Good news is Dubas is going to be gone and hopefully Shanahan too.

 

[yubbers]

k….. now do Campbell for legit bums/scraps. Oh but that don’t fit the complaining narrative.

Muzzin for bums

I can go on

Campbell is far from proven.

 

[yubbers]

Glad we finally agree we are able to hire someone who wins in the lower leagues because they've proven themselves and we don't need someone with NHL experience as a GM.

You get wrecked on that back and forth. LOL. Tap out brah.

Let me get this straight. Believing in Hainsey and Zaitsev to round out your top 4 while making Turtle neck plek your splash move while having all your best players for cheap, accumulates to being granted a 4th year as GM?

Lou let everyone down including us but gets a free pass because the Islanders made it to the conference finals. Who cares about the Islanders . He had a much better team over here and flopped.

If Dubas ends up a failure it will be both Lou and him that failed us. Lous final push in year 3 was soft. That was our final peak year for that snapshot of the team. Horrible GM'ing. He didn't deserve the 4th year

Dubas did just fine considering we had no Nylander that regular season. (Missing for half and a shadow of himself for the rest). His own guys Kapanen and Hyman making up for the loss of JVR and Bozak and Muzzin a massive upgrade on D. Leafs were so deep with that Kadri-Nylander third line in playoffs it looked like Bruins would be dealt with in as little as 5 games. Kadri had other plans though.

The point is it was clear we didn't need Lou. Let me reiterate it was Dubas guys stepping in and providing the depth we lost which includes Nylander for a significant stretch.

Today things are darker but that's not the focus. The focus is this belief Lou would be some savior here. That's all fantasy and make believe. A story is being written for Lou here that isn't true and one he doesn't deserve.

It's surprising people are willing to accept mediocrity when it doesn't involve Dubas. Mediocre describes Lous time here so get over him already. Dubas failing doesn't equal Lou being good. They both failed if Leafs end up having to clean house.

Riely had a career year with Hainsey. He decided to replace his top line pairing with the Zaitsev move Ceci. LOL. Who of course was bad. And so was Reily. We lost to CBJ in qualifier.

Dubas LOVES fixing things that are working good. Just ike McBackup. Anf we're still dealing with Hutch LOL

 

[Knies iT]

I have faith that he won’t sewer the team like Nonis, Burke, etc. He’s a “safe” GM in the same vein as a Cheveldayoff in that he shies away from mega deals and instead tinkers with the secondary pieces.

I agree with a lot of his methodologies:

• Not overpaying fringe peripheral players with term (e.g. unlike Benning, Lou, etc.)
• His entire drafting approach: Prioritizing IQ and upside, trading down for surplus picks, etc.
• Bargain hunting in FA (Bunting, Kase, Bogosian, Simmonds, etc.) instead of mega UFA deals that cripple teams (see Clarkson, Komisarek, Marleau, etc.)
• Not overpaying for rentals at the TDL (Foligno was his biggest deviation from this, arguably the worst trade of his tenure)

Without getting into his transaction wins/losses, he’s a net neutral GM who generally won’t kill you with his moves. The problem is that this team isn’t in a cruise control state, or close to it.

What’s becoming clear, though, is that his commitment to the core will be his kryptonite. 50% of the cap going to four forwards is a flawed build. No matter what GM is brought in, they will do no better unless a core player (i.e. Marner) is moved to rebalance cap and open up possibilities. The Hunter drafts killed the ELC depth that should have been here by now, and there's not enough expendable futures to shore up the roster holes, so you're stuck with FA reclamation experiments that have poor ROI.

The arguments that he's one of the worst GM's in the league are completely insane, though.

 

[Apex Predator]

I used to believe in him and his plan but its not working

this was me too! After this off season when he didn’t break up the core 4 I lost trust in him and accepted that we weren’t winning this year.

 

[axlrose87]

I have faith that he won’t sewer the team like Nonis, Burke, etc. He’s a “safe” GM in the same vein as a Cheveldayoff in that he shies away from mega deals and instead tinkers with the secondary pieces.

I agree with a lot of his methodologies:

• Not overpaying fringe peripheral players with term (e.g. unlike Benning, Lou, etc.)
• His entire drafting approach: Prioritizing IQ and upside, trading down for surplus picks, etc.
• Bargain hunting in FA (Bunting, Kase, Bogosian, Simmonds, etc.) instead of mega UFA deals that cripple teams (see Clarkson, Komisarek, Marleau, etc.)
• Not overpaying for rentals at the TDL (Foligno was his biggest deviation from this, arguably the worst trade of his tenure)

Without getting into his transaction wins/losses, he’s a net neutral GM who generally won’t kill you with his moves. The problem is that this team isn’t in a cruise control state, or close to it.

What’s becoming clear, though, is that his commitment to the core will be his kryptonite. 50% of the cap going to four forwards is a flawed build. No matter what GM is brought in, they will do no better unless a core player (i.e. Marner) is moved to rebalance cap and open up possibilities. The Hunter drafts killed the ELC depth that should have been here by now, and there's not enough expendable futures to shore up the roster holes, so you're stuck with FA reclamation experiments that have poor ROI.

The arguments that he's one of the worst GM's in the league are completely insane, though.

Sorry man, he is absolutely one of the worst gms in the league.
He would make an excellent assistant. Draw up spread sheets and analytics but then hand them over to the gm to make the final decision.
He should not be the one making the final decision.

 

[Knies iT]

Sorry man, he is absolutely one of the worst gms in the league.
He would make an excellent assistant. Draw up spread sheets and analytics but then hand them over to the gm to make the final decision.
He should not be the one making the final decision.

Bias written all over your post but i'll bite. Rank the GM's and explain why he would be bottom tier based on his transaction history. There's no logic to suggest that low of a ranking compared to other GM's, not even close. Go be a fan of a team under a Hextall, Benning, Adams, Chayka, etc. and get back to me.

He's a middle tier GM who buckled in negotiations with horribly timed RFA deals. Couldn't care less if he gets fired, but the situation is complex and he's done a decent job navigating it (which most of you agreed with in the TDL/pre-playoff polls last season). He hasn't shown an ability to take the roster to the next level but to argue he's league worst is extreme hyperbole.

 

[axlrose87]

Bias written all over your post but i'll bite. Rank the GM's and explain why he would be bottom tier based on his transaction history. There's no logic to suggest that low of a ranking compared to other GM's, not even close. Go be a fan of a team under a Hextall, Benning, Adams, Chayka, etc. and get back to me.

He's a middle tier GM who buckled in negotiations with horribly timed RFA deals. Couldn't care less if he gets fired, but the situation is complex and he's done a decent job navigating it (which most of you agreed with in the TDL/pre-playoff polls last season). He hasn't shown an ability to take the roster to the next level but to argue he's league worst is extreme hyperbole.

The team has gone backwards for three seasons now.
Traded away several assets for no results.
No recouping of assets by selling off ufa’s.
His draft picks haven’t done much to help the team.

What has he done well? …. Other then inherit a really good roster.
Sign Tavares? Is that it?

 

[Cor]

I have faith that he won’t sewer the team like Nonis, Burke, etc. He’s a “safe” GM in the same vein as a Cheveldayoff in that he shies away from mega deals and instead tinkers with the secondary pieces.

I agree with a lot of his methodologies:

• Not overpaying fringe peripheral players with term (e.g. unlike Benning, Lou, etc.)
• His entire drafting approach: Prioritizing IQ and upside, trading down for surplus picks, etc.
• Bargain hunting in FA (Bunting, Kase, Bogosian, Simmonds, etc.) instead of mega UFA deals that cripple teams (see Clarkson, Komisarek, Marleau, etc.)
• Not overpaying for rentals at the TDL (Foligno was his biggest deviation from this, arguably the worst trade of his tenure)

Without getting into his transaction wins/losses, he’s a net neutral GM who generally won’t kill you with his moves. The problem is that this team isn’t in a cruise control state, or close to it.

What’s becoming clear, though, is that his commitment to the core will be his kryptonite. 50% of the cap going to four forwards is a flawed build. No matter what GM is brought in, they will do no better unless a core player (i.e. Marner) is moved to rebalance cap and open up possibilities. The Hunter drafts killed the ELC depth that should have been here by now, and there's not enough expendable futures to shore up the roster holes, so you're stuck with FA reclamation experiments that have poor ROI.

The arguments that he's one of the worst GM's in the league are completely insane, though.

This is a pretty terrific, reasonable and well articulated post.

 

[Antropovsky]

I have faith that he won’t sewer the team like Nonis, Burke, etc. He’s a “safe” GM in the same vein as a Cheveldayoff in that he shies away from mega deals and instead tinkers with the secondary pieces.

I agree with a lot of his methodologies:

• Not overpaying fringe peripheral players with term (e.g. unlike Benning, Lou, etc.)
• His entire drafting approach: Prioritizing IQ and upside, trading down for surplus picks, etc.
• Bargain hunting in FA (Bunting, Kase, Bogosian, Simmonds, etc.) instead of mega UFA deals that cripple teams (see Clarkson, Komisarek, Marleau, etc.)
• Not overpaying for rentals at the TDL (Foligno was his biggest deviation from this, arguably the worst trade of his tenure)

Without getting into his transaction wins/losses, he’s a net neutral GM who generally won’t kill you with his moves. The problem is that this team isn’t in a cruise control state, or close to it.

What’s becoming clear, though, is that his commitment to the core will be his kryptonite. 50% of the cap going to four forwards is a flawed build. No matter what GM is brought in, they will do no better unless a core player (i.e. Marner) is moved to rebalance cap and open up possibilities. The Hunter drafts killed the ELC depth that should have been here by now, and there's not enough expendable futures to shore up the roster holes, so you're stuck with FA reclamation experiments that have poor ROI.

The arguments that he's one of the worst GM's in the league are completely insane, though.

The Barrie Kadri trade was a fail - leafs didn't have the cap hit to re-sign Barrie so this was a big asset for a rental player and lower end version of the player traded.

Alternative: An alternative trade would have been Kadri for someone cheaper but who could've been re-signed and brought effort every game, something Kadri was not known for. Blake Coleman comes to mind or a miles wood.

Dubas passed on Carter Verhaeghe because Verhaeghe wanted 1 million, but Dubas wanted to pay 700,000.

Dubas trade Marchment for Malgin. Marchment was one of those types of depth players we didn't have alot of in the system. He's big, plays physical and is a hard worker. Malgin was more of the same this team had to much of.

Dubas spent big assets on Foligno. Again, spending money on rentals instead of acquiring depth that can stay longer term. I'd rather have seen our 1st spend on a younger player like Bennett who played physical, and had alot of untapped potential, someone we may have gotten to sign long term at a reasonable rate.... making our lower end guys more expendable (Mikheyev, Engvall, Kerfoot) or maybe a guy like Kase or Ritchie unnecessary. Don't think this is a hindsight is 20/20 type post either, I wanted both Verhaeghe and Bennett when they were available. Another player I wanted was Heinan, who is off to a great start in Pittsburgh.

There are plenty of other GMs doing pretty damn good right now, and of course there are the ones not doing great either.... I definitely wouldn't put Dubas anywhere near the top though. Since he took over, player development has stalled, he has lost more trades than he has one, the depth has steadily declined and he destroyed the value of his incredible group of young players by overpaying them in comparison to like peers. This is without mentioning his rookie coach failing more than the coach he fired and the Marlies also being terrible as well.

Oh and something about the team seems off... when Lou was in charge the team seemed on to something, even when this team was having success, overall something felt off. Maybe Keefe was unlikeable...or maybe the team hated watching Marner and Matthews play almost half a game a piece. Marner doesn't get pulled of the PP despite not scoring in a whole season.....

I think the only thing keeping this team a float is the immense pressure from the fans. The players certainly dont seem to give any $&$& about management or the coaches.

 

[Racer88]

If you respect Doug MacLean, he was on Kyper and Bourne and I thought he had some interesting thoughts on the Leafs.

Sifting through the Leafs' rollercoaster start with Doug MacLean (sportsnet.ca)

Lost Hyman, blueline is not good enough, not sold on our goaltending and lack of experience behind the bench. Still easy to play against.

He is not wrong

 

[Gary Nylund]

If you respect Doug MacLean, he was on Kyper and Bourne and I thought he had some interesting thoughts on the Leafs.

Sifting through the Leafs' rollercoaster start with Doug MacLean (sportsnet.ca)

Lost Hyman, blueline is not good enough, not sold on our goaltending and lack of experience behind the bench. Still easy to play against.

I don't need to spend my time listening, I'll just say that the bolded seems spot on. I wish I could say otherwise but there it is.

If you look at the team this year, they are:

1) Noticeably slower, in fact I think you can safely call them a slow team now.
2) Less ability to score: Hyman is gone, Galchenyuk is gone, Matthews doesn't appear anywhere near 100% and lacks effort most nights, Ritchie is uber terrible, Tavares has been mostly awful until the Chicago game, Marner appears to be pouting.
3) Muzzin-Holl are just putrid.
4) Really miss Bogo.
5) Won't play Liljegren for whatever reason.

I give those credit who think its all going to be alright. That's not how I see it. Good news is Dubas is going to be gone and hopefully Shanahan too.

1)
Agreed.

2)
I don't agree about Matthews effort or Marner pouting and it's also way too early in the season to worry about Tavares. Agree about Hyman and Ritchie. And too all those who said we won't miss Hyman because we can plug anyone in next to M&M and they'll produce the same - LOL@you. And to all those who said Ritchie would be super motivated and have a career year - LOL@you. Pretty depressing that so far M&M aren't producing while in EDM, McD&D are absolutely killing it with Hyman.

3)
Not good so far obviously but too early to label this pairing putrid IMO.

4)
Agreed.

5)
Agreed.

 

[ToneDog]

The team has gone backwards for three seasons now.
Traded away several assets for no results.
No recouping of assets by selling off ufa’s.
His draft picks haven’t done much to help the team.

What has he done well? …. Other then inherit a really good roster.
Sign Tavares? Is that it?

Sadly even the Tavares signing is turning out bad. Play is declining, can't trade him due to cap hit and NMC and deal caused a ripple effect and cost us in the negotiations with the 3 amigos. Those contracts were a fail.

The fact that Dubas and Shanny admitted that this team needed to be harder to play against after the CBJ series and two years later they still are not is another huge fail.

Last year it was we need killer instinct. I wonder what the excuse will be this year if they flop in the playoffs.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Last year it was we need killer instinct. I wonder what the excuse will be this year if the flop in the playoffs

If they get there they won't have any because they'll rightfully be shown the door

 

[DuklaNation]

Dubas doubling down. He won't adapt. He's all in on this core. Not optimistic here.

 

[Havoc]

Everyone who said Dubas was playing hardball with Rielly on giving a NMC on a 8 x 6.5 deal are very quiet today.

You're right, he was playing hardball but not in the way you thought.....he said hell no Rielly, what is this 6.5, I want to give you 7.5 with a NMC broooo

Will be interesting to see how they come back from this one. Credibility around here dwindling by the day.

 

[axlrose87]

I guess I imagined all those posts about Dubas being an idiot because he didn't want to put a NMC on a 6.5 AAV.

My apologies. I'll look for a shrink tomorrow.

This has to mean we are trading Marner in the off-season right?????
Dubas can’t be this stupid right? Tie up 60% of the cap in 5 guys that have gotten us nowhere.

 

[Havoc]

This has to mean we are trading Marner in the off-season right?????
Dubas can’t be this stupid right? Tie up 60% of the cap in 5 guys that have gotten us nowhere.

Delete. Insult throwing guy post got deleted by the mods so I have nothing to say more about it.