Do we want Kessel and Phaneuf back for next year?

[glucker]

If the Leafs had won McDavid, I could see it.

If the Leafs are 100% confident they could land Stamkos next summer, I'd see it.


But neither is the case. They're good players, very good players, but we need that #1 center... And the best way to achieve that is to be **** for a little while. JVR, Nylander, Marner/Strome, Brown, Andersson and Kadri would be a great supporting cast for an Austin Matthews, so we don't need to worry should leaving no talent for the future, but those guys won't be carrying the team like Kessel and Phaneuf would.

 

[Mess]

No, Kessel and Phaneuf have already gotten 2 GMs and 3 Coaches fired in the past 4 years so I would rather not expose Shanny, Babcock and anyone else to further ridicule for the poor team results with them at the forefront as lightning rods of controversy.

I think a clean slate severing all ties to the past is the best direction to go moving forward, and carpet bombing this current roster the best plan of attack.

 

[Daisy Jane]

Will you lose all faith in the new Management if they are?

i wasn't finished. and yes. I will abandon all hope for them

but realistically, no. if they are not moved, it would mean (to me) their price was not met. My personal view is that the book is closed on those two and if management was trying so incredibly hard to move them in March, I don't think having Babcock here in May is going to change Management trying to move them. (or anyone) to get this team ultimately better.


It took Buffalo 3-4 years to get rid of their largest contracts (shrug). it might take us the same amount of time.

but I stand by what I said. I think it is a waste of those two talents to be on a team of what it is right now. period. I mean I have my feelings on the both of them, but that's not coming into play right now. They are two talented people who can contribute to a team winning a cup now.

that's not where the Leafs are at.

I feel that a better leadership core would be beneficial to the team and to those two players and they are not going to get it here.

I think it behooves everyone to trade them. (shrug).
if Management doesn't think so then it will be interesting to see how they try their very best, though I personally feel that we've seen that story before, and we know how it will end.

 

[Teeder9]

i wasn't finished. and yes. I will abandon all hope for them

but realistically, no. if they are not moved, it would mean (to me) their price was not met. My personal view is that the book is closed on those two and if management was trying so incredibly hard to move them in March, I don't think having Babcock here in May is going to change Management trying to move them. (or anyone) to get this team ultimately better.


It took Buffalo 3-4 years to get rid of their largest contracts (shrug). it might take us the same amount of time.

but I stand by what I said. I think it is a waste of those two talents to be on a team of what it is right now. period. I mean I have my feelings on the both of them, but that's not coming into play right now. They are two talented people who can contribute to a team winning a cup now.

that's not where the Leafs are at.

I feel that a better leadership core would be beneficial to the team and to those two players and they are not going to get it here.

I think it behooves everyone to trade them. (shrug).
if Management doesn't think so then it will be interesting to see how they try their very best, though I personally feel that we've seen that story before, and we know how it will end.

I agree with most, but we could have been rid of Phaneuf already, and we got rid of Clarkson. They would have been the two worst. Kessel might take time, but the whole reasoning was it'd be easier in the summer. Lupul should be traded or put on waivers

 

[ACC1224]

i wasn't finished. and yes. I will abandon all hope for them

but realistically, no. if they are not moved, it would mean (to me) their price was not met. My personal view is that the book is closed on those two and if management was trying so incredibly hard to move them in March, I don't think having Babcock here in May is going to change Management trying to move them. (or anyone) to get this team ultimately better.


It took Buffalo 3-4 years to get rid of their largest contracts (shrug). it might take us the same amount of time.

but I stand by what I said. I think it is a waste of those two talents to be on a team of what it is right now. period. I mean I have my feelings on the both of them, but that's not coming into play right now. They are two talented people who can contribute to a team winning a cup now.

that's not where the Leafs are at.

I feel that a better leadership core would be beneficial to the team and to those two players and they are not going to get it here.

I think it behooves everyone to trade them. (shrug).
if Management doesn't think so then it will be interesting to see how they try their very best, though I personally feel that we've seen that story before, and we know how it will end.

You seem to have a level headed view, similar to mine.

 

[ULF_55]

i wasn't finished. and yes. I will abandon all hope for them

but realistically, no. if they are not moved, it would mean (to me) their price was not met. My personal view is that the book is closed on those two and if management was trying so incredibly hard to move them in March, I don't think having Babcock here in May is going to change Management trying to move them. (or anyone) to get this team ultimately better.


It took Buffalo 3-4 years to get rid of their largest contracts (shrug). it might take us the same amount of time.

but I stand by what I said. I think it is a waste of those two talents to be on a team of what it is right now. period. I mean I have my feelings on the both of them, but that's not coming into play right now. They are two talented people who can contribute to a team winning a cup now.

that's not where the Leafs are at.

I feel that a better leadership core would be beneficial to the team and to those two players and they are not going to get it here.

I think it behooves everyone to trade them. (shrug).
if Management doesn't think so then it will be interesting to see how they try their very best, though I personally feel that we've seen that story before, and we know how it will end.

I've heard discussions about Phaneuf being part of Babcock's future.

If Babcock was interested in Phaneuf at the trade deadline why would he not be interested in Phaneuf now?

Personally, I'd move Phaneuf for less than many here would, but I think he's as overrated as some NHL players do. I think he'll be a drag on the on ice leadership as long as he's with the club.

Addition by subtraction.

Kessel I have more time for, although I see him like a Gaborik type of player, where he'd be good as a complimentary piece, and I don't know if the timing is right to retain him if you could trade him for a foundational building block, ex. top 10 pick in 2015.

If Kessel is as good as many here believe, he should easily land a top10 pick this year, and while there is always a gamble at the draft, there is a gamble Kessel could be finished in a couple seasons. No guarantee Kessel or draft pick is producing in the future in the NHL.

 

[Budsfan]

There are a lot of elements to a rebuild.

People are focusing on the Leafs as the main part of the rebuild but in fact the rebuild really starts with the Marlies, and Solar Bears (to some extent) and from these associate teams, come the future Leaf stars and players that can get us to the Stanley Cup.

Shanahan is putting in place as we are seeing, a lot of minor league exec's and scouts, that can evaluate the young players and not just lottery picks but now expect to see a lot of young CHL players comming, from later picks, with what these exec's and scouts percieve as having talent that can relate to the NHL but they will have to hone their skills, at the AHL and ECHL levels, before they become the Leafs strong young talent base, it's at this level, if get great coaching and support staff, it will propel these young players to the ultimate goal.

In the mean time you build the Leafs with players, that can form a strong nucleus of talent that can bond with each other and play at a high level and then you can inrtoduce these young talented players that will be ready to perform at the same high level, as the players that are currently on the team.

Franson may be a short term fix, or a long term quality player but first you have to get him under contract and short-term and low-ball offers won't do that, why even make an offer, that he won't accept and that applies to Kessel and Dion

The question that has to be answered is, will they be good players going forward and help the Leafs through the transition and possibly beyond,
or is there a better option that can?

 

[pspot]

worlds of talent
huge contract
and we are still talking about chances, about the right pieces to get him going, make him accountable, to be a 'professional' athlete

no thanks, this team isn't winning anytime soon and he's the antithesis of what they are trying to teach the young players how to be

like keeping Vince Carter around after he gave up on the team or bringing him back once they had a hard working culture established

 

[Trapper]

I would be surprised if bot hcame back, but knowing that Shanahan has "the guy" on the bench, that will coach the **** out of his players, I could see them waiting a year to close a deal on one or both.

Let's not forget, that last season, both set career lows in points, which really hurt their value on the market.

A season with Babcock, even if he gets each to play to regular numbers, makes each's trade value jump drastically.

So at this point, I would like to see just how big an impact Babcock will have on these guys.

The possibility that they have WORSE seasons under Babcock is so statistically inferior to the likelihood that they perform BETTER, that I would take the risk every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

What exactly are people expecting Kessel to be/become with Babcock as the coach?
Kessel played under Carlyle with basically do what you want, rush 100 feet offense.
Do people expect Babcock to hold every player accountable? Is every player expected to play all 3 zones and compete/engage in loose puck battles? Come down low and support the D? Or just some players.
Again what kind of rebound are people expecting?
Coming into camp in peak shape will do more than Babcock will. Alot of rebound is on Kessel, not Babcock. Seems like we are always wating for someone else to get it done.

 

[BayStreetBully]

I wanna see them gone only if we get good value for them. Otherwise let kessel get back on pace for 35-40 goals and trade him at the deadline.

Remember we had no trading partners to dance with at the trade deadline due to cap issues? Even with Kessel's poor season, the Leafs will probably get a better offer this summer as opposed to next year's trading deadline simply due to more potential suitors. Unless you wait until next summer when he is a year older. I agree don't give Kessel away, but we shouldn't keep him for the sake of trying to fatten him up before selling.

 

[Daisy Jane]

I agree with most, but we could have been rid of Phaneuf already, and we got rid of Clarkson. They would have been the two worst. Kessel might take time, but the whole reasoning was it'd be easier in the summer. Lupul should be traded or put on waivers

Well if the price was Weiss, Smith and Pu...Pukli.. some Finnish guy in the Detroit minor system. I dont know why Nonis didn't pull on that. (I don't know much about Puk...Pul... that Finnish guy). But Nonis felt he could get more and then Nonis got fired.


I have no earthly clue what they are going to do with Lupul. he would have this + 2 more years right? or is it 2 more now?

You seem to have a level headed view, similar to mine.

well thank you. I try to. I mean, sure I let my fan-expectations get in the way at times, but I think I am able to separate them (or at least, be open to both sides of the situation).

I've heard discussions about Phaneuf being part of Babcock's future.

If Babcock was interested in Phaneuf at the trade deadline why would he not be interested in Phaneuf now?

Personally, I'd move Phaneuf for less than many here would, but I think he's as overrated as some NHL players do. I think he'll be a drag on the on ice leadership as long as he's with the club.

Addition by subtraction.

Kessel I have more time for, although I see him like a Gaborik type of player, where he'd be good as a complimentary piece, and I don't know if the timing is right to retain him if you could trade him for a foundational building block, ex. top 10 pick in 2015.

If Kessel is as good as many here believe, he should easily land a top10 pick this year, and while there is always a gamble at the draft, there is a gamble Kessel could be finished in a couple seasons. No guarantee Kessel or draft pick is producing in the future in the NHL.

I would think the main difference would be where the Wings were at the time vs. Where we are now? Phaneuf on the Wings makes sense - they wanted to secure their playoff spot + advance through the playoffs. Babcock wanting/needing a Phaneuf totally works


re: your Kessel comment I've been saying that. Kessel's value hasn't changed, there are people who are wondering how 'desperate' the Leafs are at moving him. I honestly feel if we weren't basically at sub zero (and even if you consider the pieces that we do have coming etc) - we're not close to ready to have need of Kessel (or like you mentioned Gaborik player).

I read from someone they might not move Kessel until July 1st (so they don't have to pay the signing bonuses). I don't know.

 

[Fogelhund]

Time to move these players, for assets that will be more inline with the ages of our other rebuilding assets. It is time to build our prospects and picks... move these guys for the future.

 

[ULF_55]

I read from someone they might not move Kessel until July 1st (so they don't have to pay the signing bonuses). I don't know.

They could trade next year's 1st. for a top 10 pick this year, and then trade Kessel for their own first back July 1st.

 

[MJ65]

No, Kessel and Phaneuf have already gotten 2 GMs and 3 Coaches fired in the past 4 years so I would rather not expose Shanny, Babcock and anyone else to further ridicule for the poor team results with them at the forefront as lightning rods of controversy.

I think a clean slate severing all ties to the past is the best direction to go moving forward, and carpet bombing this current roster the best plan of attack.

Exactly - I totally endorse and agree with you

 

[Budsfan]

No, Kessel and Phaneuf have already gotten 2 GMs and 3 Coaches fired in the past 4 years so I would rather not expose Shanny, Babcock and anyone else to further ridicule for the poor team results with them at the forefront as lightning rods of controversy.

I think a clean slate severing all ties to the past is the best direction to go moving forward, and carpet bombing this current roster the best plan of attack.

Mess I don't totally disagree with you but as we have seen Money is the key to moving forward and they didn't pay a small fortune hiring Babcock to Ice a team that will undoubtedly fail and have fans show up as empty seats.

Babcock is here to win and make the Leafs venue a hot ticket but he will want to see what he has in Kessel and Phanuef and he wants to make that decision himself and I guess in his mind, he doesn't want to throw out the baby, with the bath water.

The rebuild will take many years but the Players now, will at some point be gone but not in a scorched earth scenario, they may be here short term or long term but that will be Babcock and Management making those choices, while still icing a team, that competes game in and game out, every time and for the allmighty dollar.

 

[Mansfield]

no, just because both guys are nearing the end of their prime and we are probably not going to be competitive for at least another three years. they should be traded now while their value is high

 

[BayStreetBully]

They could trade next year's 1st. for a top 10 pick this year, and then trade Kessel for their own first back July 1st.

The Leafs' trading partner would have to be pretty desperate to do that to risk losing Kessel to another team. Otherwise, the trading partner gets nothing out of that, and it only benefits the Leafs.

 

[pspot]

I actually think Phanuef has been trying. He was doing his best and both wasn't good enough to be a #1 Dman and was let down by his teammates

Kessel just didn't give a ****, not his job mentality. he could have done so much more during the season and off season.

don't think the situations are the same and for that im really starting to think Phanuef could be back. especially if his value is that low . rather keep him and see what he coudl do under babcock then retain on a 7 year contract to get an okay return

kessel on the other hand just don't see it and should be able to get a good return to a team that got knocked out early. moving him is a big part of the culture change and fresh start.

 

[Durrr]

No, Kessel and Phaneuf have already gotten 2 GMs and 3 Coaches fired in the past 4 years so I would rather not expose Shanny, Babcock and anyone else to further ridicule for the poor team results with them at the forefront as lightning rods of controversy.

I think a clean slate severing all ties to the past is the best direction to go moving forward, and carpet bombing this current roster the best plan of attack.

lol

Those GM's/coaches got fired because of there own actions, they were the ones that built a vastly inferior product. I'll give Burke some lee-way because he was fired half way through his "build", but Nonis was a train wreck who absolutely butchered this team and deserved to be let go.

Ridiculous to blame Kessel/Dion. Two years ago Dion was being paired with Mike Kostka, and Kessel 5 years straight with Tyler Bozak, yet you think it's even remotely fair to blame them?

I agree we need a clear slate, but it isn't because of some ridiculous media generated controversy with our only two core players, it's because past management has failed this team repeatedly, and it's time to move on. Kessel and Dion will both find sucess elsewhere, as have most players that the media in this city have run smear campaigns against to drum up readers.

 

[Hunter74]

What exactly are people expecting Kessel to be/become with Babcock as the coach?
Kessel played under Carlyle with basically do what you want, rush 100 feet offense.
Do people expect Babcock to hold every player accountable? Is every player expected to play all 3 zones and compete/engage in loose puck battles? Come down low and support the D? Or just some players.
Again what kind of rebound are people expecting?
Coming into camp in peak shape will do more than Babcock will. Alot of rebound is on Kessel, not Babcock. Seems like we are always wating for someone else to get it done.

If Kessel stays this is what I expect to happen and why it might go down this way. Plus my take on how the team got to where it is.

I think Kessel will be Kessel under Babcock. The difference is I am expecting Babcock to utilize him better than Calyle and Horechek did. When i say Kessel will be Kessel I mean he isn't going to turn into Datsyuk. He will do his best in the areas he isn't great in and try harder for Babs than he did for Horecheck(who imo lost the room quickly when he started to shame the players to the media, not saying they didn't deserve it). I really hate Kessel, I mean I really dislike the way he plays the game but he has all world skills. That being said part of me looks back at the Bruins playoff series and that Kessel in that series got lost somewhere and maybe Babs can find him. Would that be so bad? I still don't like Kessel but that Kessel was a good player. Still don't like him.

Yes Kessel did what he wanted under Carlyle very true. However Carlyle was on a very short leash and management made it clear that it is Kessel's way or the highway as Kessel is the most important asset in the organization. That is the vibe I got from the organization in regards to Kessel during Carlyle's time here. Babcock comes in and has a different level of authority backed by ownership with an 8yr contract worth $50mil which is more of a commitment given to a coach from the Leafs than the Leafs have given any coach since Kessel got here. That imo shifts the pillars of power within the Maples Organization and especially within locker room player coach relationship. They have given a coach some teeth and not just bark.

Nonis imo was a bad leader as he undercut his coach and the players were able to leverage that and play the way they like and be selfish little jerks. Carlyle new this and employed a system that would get him the best results with the situation he was in. Horecheck came in a implimented a system that the players didn't want to play and they didn't want to do it for him and new he would be gone by seasons end. This is not going to happen next season as Babcock has way to much clout to put up with this garbage.

Yes Babcock is going to keep every player accountable because that is what a coach is supposed to do. Remember that locker room leak from unnamed player "this place is messed up, they reward the guys who don't work hard" Something like that look at link. Babcock wont do that because he isn't going to be afraid to split up JVR/Bozak/Kessel line has he has the backing of ownership and management to do what he thinks is best with the on ice product. He wont be afraid to administer tough love with anyone not just 4th liners. Side note, I hope that JVR/Bozak/Kessel line never gets put together again ever!

http://news.nationalpost.com/sports/nhl/toronto-maple-leafs-dressing-room-pretty-screwed-up-player-reveals

I am expecting a real struggle for Kessel at the beginning of the season as he tries to rediscover his scoring touch that isn't from the rush game. The good news is Babcock can help Kessel rediscover how to manufacture offense different ways like Kessel used too. While he relearns this new side of his offensive game the struggles will be masked by the fact teams are not defensively strong at the beginning of the season and Kessel's natural talents will keep him producing. After mid way his production will drop but his play wont be hurting his team and the production he is getting will be more sustainable as the season continues and teams get stronger defenisvely.

Kessel coming to camp in good shape is solely on Kessel. I have my doubts but maybe after some reflection and being shammed endlessly by the media about being over weight he trains hard. If the leafs were smart they would keep tabs on him with the strength and conditioning coach going to Kessel's summer home a couple times a month or once a week to check on his conditioning. No improvement then trade him asap. Thats if the Leafs believe conditioning is the issue.

With Phaneuf its different issues.

 

[TMLifer]

Most people are saying get rid of both, some are saying they don't mind if Kessel stays, and hardly anyone want both to stay.

If you keep Kessel and you bring in Babs, then we have the potential to finish next year with a mid round first pick, is that what we want in a rebuild?

 

[Weltschmerz]

It all depends on the return.
Shanahan promised to rebuild, but he can't sell low on this guys.
Will be an interesting offseason for sure.

 

[Durkin67]

I've heard discussions about Phaneuf being part of Babcock's future.

If Babcock was interested in Phaneuf at the trade deadline why would he not be interested in Phaneuf now?

Personally, I'd move Phaneuf for less than many here would, but I think he's as overrated as some NHL players do. I think he'll be a drag on the on ice leadership as long as he's with the club.

Addition by subtraction.

Kessel I have more time for, although I see him like a Gaborik type of player, where he'd be good as a complimentary piece, and I don't know if the timing is right to retain him if you could trade him for a foundational building block, ex. top 10 pick in 2015.

If Kessel is as good as many here believe, he should easily land a top10 pick this year, and while there is always a gamble at the draft, there is a gamble Kessel could be finished in a couple seasons. No guarantee Kessel or draft pick is producing in the future in the NHL.

1. Because Detroit was playoff bound. Toronto is anything but.
2. Gaborik was acquired by L.A, to assist with their playoff run. For the same reasons you move Dion, you move Kessel.
3. Moving Kessel frees up cap and roster space, and it changes the culture in the room; something you definitely need.

 

[Clark4Ever]

The answer is simple. If we get a great offer for them in the off season, trade them. If not, keep them.

 

[Hunter74]

Most people are saying get rid of both, some are saying they don't mind if Kessel stays, and hardly anyone want both to stay.

If you keep Kessel and you bring in Babs, then we have the potential to finish next year with a mid round first pick, is that what we want in a rebuild?

I thought Shanahan was quoted saying finishing in the sweepstakes is not good for development.

The Leafs future players need to be developed properly and perpetual losing for 4 years may not be best for these guys.

Reilly
Kadri
Holland
Panik
Gardiner

Nylander
#4 pick
#24 pick
Percy
Gauthier
Brown
Leipsic
Leivo
Fin
Nilsson

The guys in the minors can be sheltered from the losing on the big team but the guys already on the big club might not develop very well. Would be a waste of some talented players.

What might be best is finishing the season as best as we can every year which will cost us lottery spots. Just working with what draft picks we get and developing them as best as we can may be the best way to ensure long term competitiveness.