Do we want Kessel and Phaneuf back for next year?

TheLeafsBro

Registered User
Mar 14, 2014
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London, ON
If Kessel comes back to give it a go with Babcock I'm honestly okay with that. Phaneuf has to go, this leadership has to be rebuilt. I don't think Kessel was even part of the leadership to begin with. Nor should that be his expectation to lead except by putting goals in and having the right attitude. Yes I think Phaneuf would be better under Babcock, but that ship has sailed and we need to start developing our future leaders for the C role.

It all comes down to what return we're getting for Phil. We need to get the right return for an elite goal scorer (whatever management thinks that is) or we don't deal him.
 

Durrr

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Sep 11, 2012
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Apparently Babcock is a magician. He'll be a 40-goal, 90-point producer. It's not like a perimeter forward who produces around 30-goal is going to somehow see his assist numbers fall. :D

You'd obviously want to keep Phaneuf since he's a great hitter. Babcock spoke of Dion a lot more than Kessel so he'd have to part of the run.

Kessel is easily capable of 90 points 40 goals, just not with this team. That's like, 3 goals and 3 assists from his career high.
 

LeafSteel

GO LEAFS GO!!!
Mar 5, 2014
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Toronto
Makes no sense to trade them at their lowest value.

I would like them both back, knowing Babcock is in full charge.

Dion, I can see, playing well for Babcock, and helping him keep it simple and play a game that plays to Phaneuf's strengths, not to the coach's system, like Carlyle was always trying to do.

With Kessel, it will be very clear to him that he is going to have to show up in shape, and commit to the team and being a more complete player. I think it's been a while since Kessel has a coach draw a hard line in the sand, and Babcock is just that kind of coach.

I don't think Kessel is a bad guy or a bum. I just think that he is so athletically gifted, he hasn't had to work as hard. Babcock will expect hard work from everyone, and Kessel won't be given any special treatement. I think the same will go for Kadri and JVR.

Really looking forward to seeing what Babcock can do with this bunch.

BB
 

HamiltonNHL

Resigning Marner == Running it back
Jan 4, 2012
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I think it would be good to move them both.
The only reason the Leafs would keep Kessel during a rebuild is no one wants him.

The Leafs need to dump salary to create future flexibility.

I would LOVE to see how Kessel does on another team.

Phaneuf isn't good value. The Leafs overpaid him. If you can't move Kessel then I think you try to move Phaneuf.
 

ponder

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Jul 11, 2007
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Kessel to me seems like a really toxic personality who has completely given up on the team. In his interviews, everything screams "I hate this city, its fans and its media." He does it in a very passive aggressive way, a sort of "I'm not going to make sacrifices on the ice for this ****ing team, and I'm certainly not going to train in the offseason" attitude, but it's still toxic.

Phaneuf, meh, I'm cool with dealing him or keeping him, but if we're rebuilding we may as well trade him before he gets old. Kessel, though, is the one who I think really has to go, just to get started building a hard working, highly committed team spirit. You can't build a great locker room if the most talented player has a "**** this organization" attitude.
 

TMLeafer

Rest in Peace Johnny Bower
Mar 23, 2008
47,729
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I don't want either back, and I think both will flourish elsewhere.

But with Kessel, I do not want to sell low on him, and this was his worst season. If other teams are willing to look past this season and take his overall numbers into account, go for it.

Something I heard on radio last night: Kessel has a $7M bonus due July 1st, so maybe he's traded after that date if he's going to a team with a tighter budget?
 

HamiltonNHL

Resigning Marner == Running it back
Jan 4, 2012
22,710
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Kessel to me seems like a really toxic personality who has completely given up on the team. In his interviews, everything screams "I hate this city, its fans and its media." He does it in a very passive aggressive way

I know.
He says he Loves Toronto ... but you know he doesn't.
It is obvious.

He is smart though. I am sure there are times he felt like telling people how he really feels. But he knows he can't do that.

Makes no sense to trade them at their lowest value.
That's why I want to trade them now.
Their value, especially Kessel's will go down every year.
I wanted to trade Kessel last year, but everyone piled on me.

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1647543&highlight=kessel

2dbq6g0.jpg
 

Durrr

Registered User
Sep 11, 2012
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I don't want either back, and I think both will flourish elsewhere.

But with Kessel, I do not want to sell low on him, and this was his worst season. If other teams are willing to look past this season and take his overall numbers into account, go for it.

Something I heard on radio last night: Kessel has a $7M bonus due July 1st, so maybe he's traded after that date if he's going to a team with a tighter budget?

Rick Nash returned a 1st, good prospect and 2 roster players if I'm not mistaken, and he failed to even hit 60 points that season. I'm sure GM's would try and low-ball a little, but I think by now everyone knows what Kessel can bring, and will bring.
 

Durkin67

Guest
Don cherry is going on how kessel will be in great shape next yr
so he can bring it for the Babcock coached leafs


If your like me you want this circus out of town asap


so do you want them back next yr or would u like them traded for picks and prospects

If a 64 000 000 .00 commitment from MLSE wasn't enough to motivate Kessel to get in shape, Babcock isn't going to change much
 

HamiltonNHL

Resigning Marner == Running it back
Jan 4, 2012
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13,884
Wouldn't it be fun if you could "reopen" a poll .. and see how people feel differently.
Yet, still see the old results.
:)
 

Hunter74

Registered User
Sep 21, 2004
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I want whatever is best for the Maple Leafs.

I am curious to see what Babcock can do with this roster. Carlyle had no credibility as it was obvious he was one wrong move from being let go and coached like it. Horecheck was coaching for the 1st overall and the players didn't play for him at all.

I really hate same of the players on this team though. Winning forgives all.
 

The_Chosen_One

Registered User
Jul 4, 2006
6,285
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Melbourne, Australia
Kessel is easily capable of 90 points 40 goals, just not with this team.
Maybe.

He's going to need a centre that can at least play a Backes-like game. I just can't see him battling for pucks or developing a defensive game outside of consistent backchecking. Paul Kariya never did that under Babs so I don't see why Kessel should. Moreover, I think JVR would play a game involving 100% consistency particularly on the physical side.

Furthermore, Kessel seems to perform better with the Hjalmarsson, Suter, Vlasic puck moving types. Dion played that role somewhat but expecting Gardiner/ Rielly to do the same isn't realistic. If Duncan Keith continues to play a dynamic skating, puck rusher role, I doubt those two will be any different. Do remember that much of Kane's effectiveness is generated by Hjalmarssons' puck movement. Otherwise, Kane tends to slow things down due to his elite puckhandling. As for the "withdrawn" , non-rusher, puck moving type, Granberg is the closest, but we'd need to bring over Martin or Sekera over here.

Primary solution:

JVR ( somehow evolves into a PWF) - Big two-way C - Kessel

Rielly - Martin

We'd need a big, strong forchecking type. This centre will need to be able to keep up with Kessel and successfully keep the play alive. Babcock will demand that we play a tighter game, but Rielly will be expected to play more high up. He's going to support Kessel as the fourth forward. Martin is the stay-at-home mobile defenceman, who keep the opposition honest and does a great job keeping the puck zipping as well.


Secondary solution

Panik - Kadri - RW

Gardiner - Granberg

We're going to need to acquire a potential top six offensive scorer for Kadri. I think Phaneuf's trade could be used to acquire that. That D pairing will support a much lower-tempo forward core. Granberg is defensive defenceman, but could play that Paul Martin/ Gunnarsson-like role. Gardiner is already strong defensively and could allowed to control, bring up the puck as J-Bo does.

Shut down solution/ Bottom lines and pairings

Komarov - Holland - Bailey

LW - 4C - RW


Percy - Robidas

Third line shut down solution. Holland is a North-South shooter. He's pretty decent forcing turnovers, as is Komarov, and Bailey represents a defensively-responsible PWF.

Conclusion

Do we get that lucky? Babcock doesn't transform forwards. Datsyuk, for instance, was always considered good on the defensive end. He actually developed that part of his game in Russia.

We're also going to need to attract a defensive, PMD like Paul Martin in addition to acquiring a centre for Kessel and a winger for Kadri. Since Nazem doesn't isn't a defensive phenom, forechecking beast like Toews ( not even Datsyuk is), we really do need a strong guy in the middle for Kessel.

Assuming Strome is available, we'd need an additional year for him to be NHL-ready. He would obviously help turn our top line into a less one-dimensional one. If he slows things down, he's elite enough to work the puck and enable Kessel to thrive on the perimeter.

Maybe we pull it off, but I really doubt it. If we keep Kessel, we'd need to look at contending while getting lucky with the draft.
 

Banic

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Jun 23, 2010
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Toronto
im ok with kessel because it's likely he'll have a bounce back season and dramatically increase his value, i think phaneuf has to go being the captain and all and i dont think he's going to improve by that much.

so kessel sure, phaneuf no

I 100% agree with this. As captain, Phaneuf needs to go to truly rebuild and start the "culture change". Though I am completely happy moving Phil for the right package.
 

Damisoph

Registered User
Jun 29, 2010
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Phaneuf for sure has to go, but I'd keep Kessel unless we get a nice offer.
 

Durkin67

Guest
I want whatever is best for the Maple Leafs.

I am curious to see what Babcock can do with this roster. Carlyle had no credibility as it was obvious he was one wrong move from being let go and coached like it. Horecheck was coaching for the 1st overall and the players didn't play for him at all.

I really hate same of the players on this team though. Winning forgives all.


Temporarily. A leopard doesn't change its spots. They can buy in for a month or two only to checkout once again, like always, but maybe that's what it takes for people to realise that this core gets you nowhere.

They are 3 years away from being respectable. You want a 31 year old out of shape Kessel who hasn't trained like a pro to be your top guy?

No thanks.
Maybe like Seguin, a trade is the wakeup call he needs. Regardless, even if he goes beast mode for three years, the gap between him and the rest of the team would be so big that it wouldn't matter; it would only mitigate the value of the draft picks they end up with.

Oh, yeah...one more thing... do we honestly believe Phil Kessel is going to want to play for a loser for another three years?

No chance. He's too sulky and immature. You don't want that affecting your dressing room either. He's going to be miserable under Babcock.

I'd flip him before he devalues himself further.
 

Trapper

Registered User
Nov 21, 2013
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I love how people were (after 6 years) ready for a rebuild. Start moving these guys out and draft and develop.
But wait, we hired Babcock and let's change the plan. Somehow Kessel is evolving into a 90 point player under Babcock and the core will be able to lend its experience for something or other.
I hope management isn't flip flopping like this.
Babcock said in 3 years if it's painful will you stay the course?
Here we are keeping the core and expecting different results in about 3 minutes.
Whatever the Shanaplan is, stick to it.
Whoever that didn't include shouldn't change with Babcock.
 

CalgaryLeaf*

Guest
Kessel has already shown that he is a quitter and won't do what the coach asks of him....Plain and simple when the going gets tough Kessel quits...His attitude is a cancer to the entire organization.get him out out here!

Phaneuf has let it be known that he wanted out of Toronto.. He went through the back channels but he still put it out there, allegedly. I'd hold onto him until they can get a good trade...His stock might be down right now.
 

Darcy Tucker

My Name is Bob
Mar 23, 2008
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Vaughan, Ontario
I think they are both going to get chances to play their way back to respectability and at least up their value, if not stick around and be part of the solution.

It's not like they are 35+ and have a couple seasons left. They could be part of the rebuild. Easily.

I like what both can bring but they shouldn't be number one options. Kessel needs a better forward on the team to play with and Phaneuf needs a proper top pairing partner , not these projects he's been given.

This hate for them is kinda ridiculous.
 

Durkin67

Guest
I think they are both going to get chances to play their way back to respectability and at least up their value, if not stick around and be part of the solution.

It's not like they are 35+ and have a couple seasons left. They could be part of the rebuild. Easily.

I like what both can bring but they shouldn't be number one options. Kessel needs a better forward on the team to play with and Phaneuf needs a proper top pairing partner , not these projects he's been given.

This hate for them is kinda ridiculous.

They won't be even respectable for three years. Kessel is 28 now. He's not going to be relevant in 3 years.
 

Durrr

Registered User
Sep 11, 2012
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They won't be even respectable for three years. Kessel is 28 now. He's not going to be relevant in 3 years.

Yep, PPG player 3 years in a row, 30 goals every year since he broke out until this year, top 10 scoring player in the past 4 seasons. No way he's relevant at 30. :facepalm:

He's 27 by the way.
 

Darcy Tucker

My Name is Bob
Mar 23, 2008
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Vaughan, Ontario
They won't be even respectable for three years. Kessel is 28 now. He's not going to be relevant in 3 years.

Kessel barely gets hit or exerts himself. He will be just as dynamic at 31 as he is now. He tested as one of the top 3 players for fitness in training camp and he barely worked out in the offseason. I don't see him just falling off the map at 30+. He can be a legit sniper for many more years.
 

Durrr

Registered User
Sep 11, 2012
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413
Kessel barely gets hit or exerts himself. He will be just as dynamic at 31 as he is now. He tested as one of the top 3 players for fitness in training camp and he barely worked out in the offseason. I don't see him just falling off the map at 30+. He can be a legit sniper for many more years.

First off, just going to say that the myth that Kessel does not work out is completely ridiculous. From his own admission, he works out 5 days a week. What he doesn't do is skate a lot during the offseason, which a lot of pro's will admit to doing the same (notably, Erik Karlsson said himself that he barley skated last summer).

The rest, I agree with. Kessel has shown no signs that he will regress anytime soon. This season he was on pace for 80+ points again until this team (and Kessel) crashed and burned. This is called burn out people, it happens in all professions, how long did people honestly expect Kessel to carry this team by himself before he just couldnt anymore?

If Kessel had gotten 8 more points this season he would be sitting 4th in overall points scored in the NHL in the past 5 seasons, ahead of "elite leaders" like Tavares and Crosby. He currently sits in 8th, above Getzlaf, Perry, Kane, Sedin, Malkin etc etc.
 

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