Do we want Kessel and Phaneuf back for next year?

[HockeyNightInBelfast]

Until the Babs hiring, I never saw a scenario where I could envisage Phaneuf continuing in Toronto minus the captaincy.

Effectively Babcock is THE leader of his team & will be for sometime so there is not in my opinion going to be an issue w/ stripping Dion of the captaincy.

Doing this & somehow reducing his minutes to 3rd/4th pairing & getting Rielly+??? as a top pairing would be a scenario I'd be interested to see.

I think Dion would feel relieved & ultimately more effective & that the transition of him not wearing the 'C'under Babs far less of a big deal than it might have been were not such a massive personality as Babs.

Re Kessel: i'm not willing to give him the same bi-ball that I would give Dion. On of these guys has to get us some young assets & Kessel will clearly fetch the most return. get him out of here. A top end offensive/defensive prospect depending on who we end up w/ at 4th overall.

I am hoping it's Hanifin to supplant Dion.

 

[deletethis]

Was I watching a different team? Was Shanahan talking about a different team? What sweeping changes have happened to that same team of petulant losers if both Kessel and Phaneuf return?

 

[Trapper]

Was I watching a different team? Was Shanahan talking about a different team? What sweeping changes have happened to that same team of petulant losers if both Kessel and Phaneuf return?

It's hard to describe, you either agree with this or not. Just my personal feelings.

This team purged the old GMs, coaches, scouts, trainers, even the popcorn guy.

For me the healing will begin when the remains of the Burke assembled core is gone. Everything has been changed but the core remains. For me it's not even about getting Kessel help. I don't really care. Lots of teams have players that just need help. New Jersey can't score, they need help. NYI had lousy D and goaltending, they needed help. If we never got Kessel help, so be it, I still could have cheered but it's the way they lost, the way this team conducted themselves and just the aura given off surrounding them and a bunch of other things I can't describe.

The philosophy of drafting, selecting players with skill,speed and smarts is a great start and long overdue but other than replacing the old coaches with Babcock, it feels like expecting different results with this core.

The age of the Burke empire must end for me. Maybe not for others.

 

[Steve]

We need all the big names gone, there is no point keeping anyone after 4 consecutive train wrecks. If we want to be "bad" and rebuild then we need to remove the talent that can win games and gain/develop prospects.

 

[TMLegend]

It's hard to describe, you either agree with this or not. Just my personal feelings.

This team purged the old GMs, coaches, scouts, trainers, even the popcorn guy.

For me the healing will begin when the remains of the Burke assembled core is gone. Everything has been changed but the core remains. For me it's not even about getting Kessel help. I don't really care. Lots of teams have players that just need help. New Jersey can't score, they need help. NYI had lousy D and goaltending, they needed help. If we never got Kessel help, so be it, I still could have cheered but it's the way they lost, the way this team conducted themselves and just the aura given off surrounding them and a bunch of other things I can't describe.

The philosophy of drafting, selecting players with skill,speed and smarts is a great start and long overdue but other than replacing the old coaches with Babcock, it feels like expecting different results with this core.

The age of the Burke empire must end for me. Maybe not for others.

QFT. Outside of a select few players, the vast majority of this teams effort was abysmal to say the least. It says alot to the quality of this team when Daniel Winnik and Mike Santorelli looked like your best players most nights because they were the only ones to register on the give-a-**** meter.

 

[GoonieFace]

They better both be long gone before next season starts. Babcock is a coach, not a miracle worker. These guys have proven under 3 coaches now that they are incapable of winning, how is this going to be any different.

 

[bentharbour]

I hope both go, but I would be okay if we keep Kessel over Phaneuf. Nothing against Phaneuf, I think he plays very hard, I just do not see him contributing at a high level when plan to be competitive. Kessel, on the other hand, is a very flawed player that can be elite offensively and is just getting into his 'prime'. Regardless of his work ethic or his out-of-shapeness, I cannot ignore that he is a year removed from an 80 point season - something lacking since Sundin. In my opinion, if we can build a solid team around Kessel he is a very useful scoring player. If we can think long-term, I believe that five years from now we will be a competing team on the upswing (getting better). Kessel at 32 could still be a very solid player on a good team. He could also be a drain veteran with an inflated contract who does not have leadership qualities. Trading him now could mediate some of the risk associated with keeping him long-term, but it could also be selling a valuable asset too soon.

Either way, I think if the value is there we should deal him. Even if we don't get a huge return, there may be a solid message sent to the younger players if Kessel and Phaneuf are traded. I realize I am on the fence about it, but I am okay with either route we take re: Kessel. I do want Phaneuf dealt though.

 

[Atomos2]

I don't mind. We're not in a rush to trade em, esppecially if there isnt any value coming back.

 

[Mess]

I certainly do not want them back.

Shanahan said he has a plan and he is sticking to it and the MLSE board above for Shanny to scorch as much earth as required so I say we give him a full gasoline can and a match.

What he did to management top to bottom is now required at the player level which begins with Kessel and Phaneuf.

 

[CellarDweller0]

If the value isn't there you can be sure that they are back and if they do well during the season and they increase their value you can be sure they will be gone.

 

[Budsfan]

http://spectorshockey.net/blog/latest-bruins-red-wings-and-canucks-rumors-may-25-2015/

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2015/05/how_is_red_wings_potential_pur.html

Does Leafs hiring Babcock affect Red Wings efforts to land Phaneuf?

MLIVE.COM: Ansar Khan wonders how the Detroit Red Wings pursuit of Toronto Maple Leafs defenseman Dion Phaneuf could be affected by the Leafs hiring former Wings coach Mike Babcock. The Wings tried unsuccessfully to land Phaneuf at the March trade deadline, and there’s speculation they could revisit that deal this summer. During Babcock’s introductory press conference last week with the Toronto media, he sounded as though he wanted to give Phaneuf a chance to show what he can do under his guidance.

SPECTOR’S NOTE: For some time there’s been speculation the Leafs could trade Phaneuf and right wing Phil Kessel this summer. That could change if Babcock believes he can improve their performances. While I wouldn’t rule out one or the other being moved this summer, Babcock’s hiring suggests it’s not longer a certainty.

 

[Budsfan]

http://spectorshockey.net/blog/sunday-nhl-rumor-roundup-may-24-2015/

http://www.thestar.com/sports/hocke...must-make-kessel-a-leafs-asset-again-cox.html

Could the Leafs retain Phil Kessel?

TORONTO STAR: Damien Cox suggests it might be in the Maple Leafs’ best interest to retain Phil Kessel in hopes Mike Babcock can improve the winger’s performance. Cox notes Kessel’s trade value is likely very low right now. If he improves under Babcock it will also improve his trade value.

SPECTOR’S NOTE: I’ve been wondering if the Leafs might retain Kessel and Dion Phaneuf for the upcoming season to see if they’ll improve under Babcock. If they do, it’ll boost their trade value. It could also make them worthwhile retaining. Then again, if they perform poorly under Babcock, it will send their trade value plummeting. It’ll be interesting to see what the Leafs do with these two.

 

[grits207]

Phaneuf needs to go for sure. At 30 years old his value isn't going to get much higher even if Babcock is able to help Phaneuf's game. If Detroit is still offering Pulkkinen for Phaneuf the Leafs need to take that deal.

Kessel, I'd prefer to see him go this summer as well but if the offers aren't good enough I'm ok with holding onto him for one more season. Keeping him will hurt our tanking efforts but it's a better option than giving away a star player without getting appropriate value in return.

This idea that we are even discussing the possibility of keeping these guys and trying to make the playoffs next season is absurd. Have we not learned anything over the past decade?

 

[Durkin67]

http://spectorshockey.net/blog/latest-bruins-red-wings-and-canucks-rumors-may-25-2015/

http://www.mlive.com/redwings/index.ssf/2015/05/how_is_red_wings_potential_pur.html

Does Leafs hiring Babcock affect Red Wings efforts to land Phaneuf?

MLIVE.COM: Ansar Khan wonders how the Detroit Red Wings pursuit of Toronto Maple Leafs defenseman Dion Phaneuf could be affected by the Leafs hiring former Wings coach Mike Babcock. The Wings tried unsuccessfully to land Phaneuf at the March trade deadline, and there’s speculation they could revisit that deal this summer. During Babcock’s introductory press conference last week with the Toronto media, he sounded as though he wanted to give Phaneuf a chance to show what he can do under his guidance.

SPECTOR’S NOTE: For some time there’s been speculation the Leafs could trade Phaneuf and right wing Phil Kessel this summer. That could change if Babcock believes he can improve their performances. While I wouldn’t rule out one or the other being moved this summer, Babcock’s hiring suggests it’s not longer a certainty.

My gut says he stays, but I really don't see the logic there. Like Kessel, he'll be an ageing albatross by the time this team is competitive. He's 30 now. He plays a hard hitting physical game and it's going to wear him down to the point where he won't have the mobility to compete at the top level.

I'd trade him to any one of PHI , BOS, DAL or EDM and get the rebuild underway. They've invested in top notch evaluators scouts and player development people. They need draft picks and prospects for them to evaluate, scout, and develop.

There's no need for Dion in Toronto. They aren't going to win anything of significance in the next 3 years.

 

[ACC1224]

I don't care either way, I have full confidence in this new regime.
It is possible that these players start the season and the plan is still to move them.

 

[Budsfan]

My gut says he stays, but I really don't see the logic there. Like Kessel, he'll be an ageing albatross by the time this team is competitive. He's 30 now. He plays a hard hitting physical game and it's going to wear him down to the point where he won't have the mobility to compete at the top level.

I'd trade him to any one of PHI , BOS, DAL or EDM and get the rebuild underway. They've invested in top notch evaluators scouts and player development people. They need draft picks and prospects for them to evaluate, scout, and develop.

There's no need for Dion in Toronto. They aren't going to win anything of significance in the next 3 years.

Babcock wants to win and instill that winning attitude in his players and Kessel and Phanuef are very good players that can play at a high level and if you have players that can show the way, for younger guys coming up that is a benefit to them.

This rebuild is not going to happen over night, it will take many years and it's not as though these players can't be traded at any time and it doesn't speed up the rebuild, to just bring in young players not ready for the NHL and they flounder trying to play up to the NHL standard, it does in fact hinder a rebuild.

 

[kihei]

As long as they are here, the rebuild is in limbo.

 

[Hotel Mario]

If both are back next year the team is not rebuilding, which would be a catastrophic failure. There should be absolutely zero faith in these players to do anything from proven ability to collapse and wilt in adversity.

It is not a logical decision to keep either player, unless the return is well below expectations. Out of all players on this team these two are the last that deserve another chance.

 

[Hotel Mario]

Babcock wants to win and instill that winning attitude in his players and Kessel and Phanuef are very good players that can play at a high level and if you have players that can show the way, for younger guys coming up that is a benefit to them.

This rebuild is not going to happen over night, it will take many years and it's not as though these players can't be traded at any time and it doesn't speed up the rebuild, to just bring in young players not ready for the NHL and they flounder trying to play up to the NHL standard, it does in fact hinder a rebuild.

Show the way to mediocrity?

The young players can be developed in the minors, and a better veteran presence (winning and hard work track record) through trade and free agency.

 

[indigobuffalo]

I would be surprised if bot hcame back, but knowing that Shanahan has "the guy" on the bench, that will coach the **** out of his players, I could see them waiting a year to close a deal on one or both.

Let's not forget, that last season, both set career lows in points, which really hurt their value on the market.

A season with Babcock, even if he gets each to play to regular numbers, makes each's trade value jump drastically.

So at this point, I would like to see just how big an impact Babcock will have on these guys.

The possibility that they have WORSE seasons under Babcock is so statistically inferior to the likelihood that they perform BETTER, that I would take the risk every day of the week and twice on Sunday.

 

[Trapper]

http://spectorshockey.net/blog/sunday-nhl-rumor-roundup-may-24-2015/

http://www.thestar.com/sports/hocke...must-make-kessel-a-leafs-asset-again-cox.html

Could the Leafs retain Phil Kessel?

TORONTO STAR: Damien Cox suggests it might be in the Maple Leafs’ best interest to retain Phil Kessel in hopes Mike Babcock can improve the winger’s performance. Cox notes Kessel’s trade value is likely very low right now. If he improves under Babcock it will also improve his trade value.

SPECTOR’S NOTE: I’ve been wondering if the Leafs might retain Kessel and Dion Phaneuf for the upcoming season to see if they’ll improve under Babcock. If they do, it’ll boost their trade value. It could also make them worthwhile retaining. Then again, if they perform poorly under Babcock, it will send their trade value plummeting. It’ll be interesting to see what the Leafs do with these two.

The media flip-flopping has begun and will continue on a monthly basis from here on out.
For this reason I wish we hadn't hired Babcock and also wish we were just going with a team of unknowns during the rebuilding time.
No trade Kessel, keep Kessel, trade Phaneuf, keep Phaneuf monthly articles depending on the writer and which month it is.
I would have prefered the rebuild to be quiet and relatively obscure. Nobody worries about Winnik/Santorelli/Komarov etc. on this team and our draft picks plus Nylander etc. could spend their time in the minors or on the Marlies without the Maple Leaf spotlight. Take away as much of their ammunition as possible until we have collected and are ready to assemble.

 

[Durkin67]

Babcock wants to win and instill that winning attitude in his players and Kessel and Phanuef are very good players that can play at a high level and if you have players that can show the way, for younger guys coming up that is a benefit to them.

This rebuild is not going to happen over night, it will take many years and it's not as though these players can't be traded at any time and it doesn't speed up the rebuild, to just bring in young players not ready for the NHL and they flounder trying to play up to the NHL standard, it does in fact hinder a rebuild.

Why would you need to put those young prospects into the lineup at all? You can let them develop and get some free agents and graduate guys like Leivo, Frattin, etc. to take roster spots.
Trading Kessel and Phaneuf later when their impact and subsequent value is diminished means a smaller return.

 

[Daisy Jane]

very simply put, no I do not.
keeping Phil & Dion here is a waste of their contributions to the ice (for our team) a waste of what we can get back (as assets). in my view every year we keep them, is a year wasted of their prime winning, contributing ways. Simply wanting to keep them to see what yet another coach can do for them, makes no sense to me. They are who they are. Move on from them and let's start afresh.

 

[ACC1224]

very simply put, no I do not.

Will you lose all faith in the new Management if they are?

 

[Teeder9]

The media flip-flopping has begun and will continue on a monthly basis from here on out.
For this reason I wish we hadn't hired Babcock and also wish we were just going with a team of unknowns during the rebuilding time.
No trade Kessel, keep Kessel, trade Phaneuf, keep Phaneuf monthly articles depending on the writer and which month it is.
I would have prefered the rebuild to be quiet and relatively obscure. Nobody worries about Winnik/Santorelli/Komarov etc. on this team and our draft picks plus Nylander etc. could spend their time in the minors or on the Marlies without the Maple Leaf spotlight. Take away as much of their ammunition as possible until we have collected and are ready to assemble.

This is really the worst possible scenario. babcock isn't going to win with these players anymore than Carlyle did. Anyone thinking a guy who won his only cup with a top 4 dman of all time and arguably a top 3 two way player of all time and very good depth is somehow performing miracles here is deluded. He's a good coach who has been outcoached on many occasions. If they keep this team together, it'll be a wasted year, and every one of these players will lose value further because they lost AGAIN and they are one year older.