Disney Star Wars General Discussion

[Osprey]

Also I am a little confused at the Vader/Leia bit. Vader read Luke's mind to discover that he had a twin sister in ROTJ, so even in the OT that was established.

That's true. In that case, Lucas, himself, created the plot hole.

 

[Tawnos]

I don't think using the Force to read someone's mind works with people who aren't Force-sensitive. The act of reading the mind requires that Force connection. At the time, Vader had no reason to suspect that Leia was one of those people. It's only when connecting to the Force as part of piloting (something he did his whole life) that Vader senses Luke's connection to it. This would also explain why Kylo tries it with Rey when he didn't try it with Lor San Tekka earlier in the movie.

It's a plausible explanation, except for one problem. Maul invades a clone's mind in the last season of TCW. So, really it's Filoni creating plot holes, rather than Lucas.

 

[Osprey]

I don't think using the Force to read someone's mind works with people who aren't Force-sensitive. The act of reading the mind requires that Force connection. At the time, Vader had no reason to suspect that Leia was one of those people. It's only when connecting to the Force as part of piloting (something he did his whole life) that Vader senses Luke's connection to it. This would also explain why Kylo tries it with Rey when he didn't try it with Lor San Tekka earlier in the movie.

It's a plausible explanation, except for one problem. Maul invades a clone's mind in the last season of TCW. So, really it's Filoni creating plot holes, rather than Lucas.

Kylo tried it with Rey when neither of them knew that she was Force sensitive. So, if Lucas intended it the way that you're figuring, then it's Abrams who changed the rules and created plot holes. Lucas and Filoni acquitted and Abrams found guilty suits me!

 

[Tawnos]

Kylo tried it with Rey when neither of them knew that she was Force sensitive. So, if Lucas intended it the way that you're figuring, then it's Abrams who changed the rules and created plot holes. Lucas and Filoni acquitted and Abrams found guilty suits me!

Haha, well I just remembered that Kylo did it to Poe pretty early on in that movie.

According to Wookiepedia, that mind probe Kylo used was a technique developed by Snoke, so canonically Vader wouldn’t have known how to do it. This was apparently explained in one of the comics.

 

[Shockmaster]

I don't think using the Force to read someone's mind works with people who aren't Force-sensitive. The act of reading the mind requires that Force connection. At the time, Vader had no reason to suspect that Leia was one of those people. It's only when connecting to the Force as part of piloting (something he did his whole life) that Vader senses Luke's connection to it. This would also explain why Kylo tries it with Rey when he didn't try it with Lor San Tekka earlier in the movie.

It's a plausible explanation, except for one problem. Maul invades a clone's mind in the last season of TCW. So, really it's Filoni creating plot holes, rather than Lucas.

If I recall correctly, I think Maul also used the force to read Hera Syndulla's mind in Rebels.

 

[MadDevil]

I don't think using the Force to read someone's mind works with people who aren't Force-sensitive. The act of reading the mind requires that Force connection. At the time, Vader had no reason to suspect that Leia was one of those people. It's only when connecting to the Force as part of piloting (something he did his whole life) that Vader senses Luke's connection to it. This would also explain why Kylo tries it with Rey when he didn't try it with Lor San Tekka earlier in the movie.

It's a plausible explanation, except for one problem. Maul invades a clone's mind in the last season of TCW. So, really it's Filoni creating plot holes, rather than Lucas.

To be fair, Lucas had a pretty significant influence on TCW, so if Filoni did it I would imagine he had Lucas' blessing. Force powers in general have never really been well defined in Star Wars, which I'm fine with. Too much detail and explanation and it starts to lose that "mystical and mythical" feel.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I mean, it's the force. It is kind of open-ended and the powers that are used can change depending on the setting and the series. I don't think it is that big of a deal.

 

[Tawnos]

If I recall correctly, I think Maul also used the force to read Hera Syndulla's mind in Rebels.

Yep, that's true.

To be fair, Lucas had a pretty significant influence on TCW, so if Filoni did it I would imagine he had Lucas' blessing. Force powers in general have never really been well defined in Star Wars, which I'm fine with. Too much detail and explanation and it starts to lose that "mystical and mythical" feel.

Agreed, although I'm one who does enjoy the idea that there's a scientific basis for Force sensitivity. Don't want it to go further than it has, though.

I mean, it's the force. It is kind of open-ended and the powers that are used can change depending on the setting and the series. I don't think it is that big of a deal.

This is a really good point. Not all Force users have the same abilities, and probably don't even have the ability to the same degree. Maul and Kylo Ren both were able to do the mind probe. But also, Ezra had a special connection with animals. Cal Kestis had an ability to understand the history of an object through the Force, which not all Jedi can do.

And this fully explains Vader not breaking into Leia's mind. It's possible that either he didn't have that ability, or wasn't able to use it to the same degree as Maul could. He was able to get Luke's thoughts in that moment because Luke was raw and vulnerable. Leia would've been wholly resistant.

 

[Osprey]

This is a really good point. Not all Force users have the same abilities, and probably don't even have the ability to the same degree. Maul and Kylo Ren both were able to do the mind probe. But also, Ezra had a special connection with animals. Cal Kestis had an ability to understand the history of an object through the Force, which not all Jedi can do.

I hate the idea that not all Force users have the same abilities. It and a scientific basis for the Force moves Star Wars towards being a superhero fantasy, where some individuals are naturally gifted with superpowers that others don't have. I prefer how it was presented in the OT, as a force, quite literally, that anyone could use with effort and training. Forces of nature ought to affect everyone equally. Gravity doesn't affect some people more than others, but some people might use it to their advantage better than others.

I like the idea that there are rules to the universe and they don't change from trilogy to trilogy or show to show. I object to playing loosely with them to suit the scene that you want to write in the moment or even write yourself out of a corner. The effect of that is there really are no rules.

It's also a slippery slope that leads to Mary Sues and Gary Stus because each new character has to be stronger than the last, making them more powerful and perfect than everyone that came before them. For example, according to what you're suggesting, Kylo is more proficient in the mind probe than Darth Vader, one of the most feared Force users to have ever existed in the galaxy, with twice the age and experience and whom he spends the whole ST worshipping.

That's the direction that the ST took us in. I'm glad that the new direction appears to be headed to a confrontation with Thrawn, who is not Force sensitive. He's a threat purely through military genius, not because he can use the Force to instantly kill anyone just by looking at them or some other ridiculous new ability that we might've gotten with Abrams.

And this fully explains Vader not breaking into Leia's mind. It's possible that either he didn't have that ability, or wasn't able to use it to the same degree as Maul could. He was able to get Luke's thoughts in that moment because Luke was raw and vulnerable. Leia would've been wholly resistant.

This doesn't work because it was made clear that Rey was able to resist Kylo's interrogation because she used the Force to do so. She didn't even have any training or even know that she had Force sensitivity when she did it. In RotJ, Luke had received training and been using the Force for 4 years. He should've been able to block the mind reading if Rey could, especially if Vader wasn't as proficient in it as Kylo.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

This is a really good point. Not all Force users have the same abilities, and probably don't even have the ability to the same degree. Maul and Kylo Ren both were able to do the mind probe. But also, Ezra had a special connection with animals. Cal Kestis had an ability to understand the history of an object through the Force, which not all Jedi can do.

And this fully explains Vader not breaking into Leia's mind. It's possible that either he didn't have that ability, or wasn't able to use it to the same degree as Maul could. He was able to get Luke's thoughts in that moment because Luke was raw and vulnerable. Leia would've been wholly resistant.

It is also possible that Vader knew he could get the information from her mind but wanted to send a message by using torture to get it out of her.

"Oh you won't cooperate? This is what happens when you defy The Empire."

 

[ArGarBarGar]

This doesn't work because it was made clear that Rey was able to resist Kylo's interrogation because she used the Force to do so. She didn't even have any training or even know that she had Force sensitivity when she did it. In RotJ, Luke had received training and been using the Force for 4 years. He should've been able to block the mind reading if Rey could, especially if Vader wasn't as proficient in it as Kylo.

In A New Hope Luke is able to shoot a proton torpedo through a ridiculously small hole without using a targeting computer by simply "letting go" and "using the force". Did Obi Wan specifically teach him how to use the force to shoot a proton torpedo through a small hole? Or did Obi Wan teach Luke about the force and that if you concentrate your mind you can use it to do unlikely things (such as blocking energy blasts without actually seeing them)?

These things come across as incredibly nitpicky in a universe that has always seemed to play pretty fast and loose with "the force" anyway.

 

[Osprey]

It is also possible that Vader knew he could get the information from her mind but wanted to send a message by using torture to get it out of her.

"Oh you won't cooperate? This is what happens when you defy The Empire."

I just watched the scenes over again and the first one on the ship after Vader and the sphere droid approach Leia in her cell is Vader saying to his underlings, "Her resistance to the mind probe is considerable. It will be some time before we can extract any information from her." So, it doesn't sound like the sphere droid is a torture device. When it approaches Leia, the camera zooms in on a syringe that it's pointing at her. I've always assumed that it's a truth serum, and that seems like the most likely explanation. Now, Vader could possibly be using a Force mind probe, but, if so, why would he need the help of a serum? Also, why would he go along with threatening to blow up her homeworld to get her to talk, especially when he said earlier, "the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force." If she had to be threatened like that and injected with a serum to try to get her to talk, then it stands to reason that there are limits to the Force and/or he wasn't using it during the interrogation.

In A New Hope Luke is able to shoot a proton torpedo through a ridiculously small hole without using a targeting computer by simply "letting go" and "using the force". Did Obi Wan specifically teach him how to use the force to shoot a proton torpedo through a small hole? Or did Obi Wan teach Luke about the force and that if you concentrate your mind you can use it to do unlikely things (such as blocking energy blasts without actually seeing them)?

These things come across as incredibly nitpicky in a universe that has always seemed to play pretty fast and loose with "the force" anyway.

I disagree that that's an example of playing "fast and loose" with the Force.

Also, why is it OK to suggest possible explanations, but it's "nitpicking" to suggest problems with them? It seems like you can't have a debate without disparaging arguments or rumors that you disagree with.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

I disagree that that's an example of playing "fast and loose" with the Force and that it's relevant to what I said.

Also, why is it OK to offer possible explanations (as you and Tawnos have done), but it's "nitpicking" to point out problems with them? Are you not able to have a discussion without disparaging others' arguments?

I didn't say it wasn't "okay", I said it was nitpicking. It seems like you are bogging yourself down in the minutia of the details of the force (expressing there need to be specific "rules"), and I don't think the force is meant to have been designed that way. The mysticism is what makes it enticing (at least to me), and it shouldn't have a hard explanation of how it works. Luke "letting go" and "using the force" is incredibly vague, and the force is being used as a method for which Luke can do something incredibly improbable ("Great shot, kid! That was one in a million!"). There isn't a specific explanation of how Luke was able to do it, he just "used the force" and did it. The introduction of the force and what it is about was always described as vague.

Ben Kenobi: Remember, a Jedi can feel the Force flowing through him.
Luke Skywalker: You mean it controls your actions?
Kenobi: Partially, but it also obeys your commands.

To me this is a pretty vague description of what the force can do. It can "partially" control what you do, but it can obey your commands. Does it have a limit on what commands it will obey? We don't really know.

The Force is what gives a Jedi his power. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us and penetrates us. It binds the galaxy together

What is this energy field? How does it bind the galaxy together, and how does this relate to "using the force"?

I felt a great disturbance in the Force … as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.

How was he able to figure this out? Does this ability have a range? Is there a technique that needs to be used to know when an entire planet is vaporized? Are there ways to harness this ability into other methods?

I think keeping the force vague and having it be used to do improbable things through the story is the right direction. I don't think there needs to be a hard cap on what exactly can be done with the force, and I think that would make things boring. I don't want to see only force jumps or force running or force grabbing. I want to see what else someone can do when harnessing the force. Keep it fresh and don't worry too much about the "technique". That is one of the reasons the PT really didn't work for me in some ways. Turning "the force" into a specific skillset that you must earn an undergraduate degree if you want to properly use it.

I'm not saying "no rules", I am just really open to new ways the force can be utilized while still fitting in the universe. The force doesn't make someone a superhero (the Jedi order was essentially destroyed through conventional means, which you likely wouldn't see happen against a major superhero), so I don't see that as a problem unless someone does something way out of left field which wouldn't make sense in Star Wars.

 

[Osprey]

I didn't say it wasn't "okay", I said it was nitpicking. It seems like you are bogging yourself down in the minutia of the details of the force (expressing there need to be specific "rules"), and I don't think the force is meant to have been designed that way.

You seem to be jumping to conclusions over one post. The bulk of your post is not really relevant to what I said or believe because I haven't suggested that all of those questions about the Force need to be answered. What I care about is continuity. Do new uses of the Force contradict past uses or open plot holes? That's what we've been discussing and I don't think that deciding that they do (and not being willing to relax the rules to accommodate everything) amounts to "nitpicking" or getting bogged down in the details. Tawnos has been diving into the details of the Force, too, and I was even replying to him in your quote, but you didn't accuse him of getting bogged down in them. I just think that you're using these characterizations to be argumentative and dismissive more than anything.

I'm not saying "no rules", I am just really open to new ways the force can be utilized while still fitting in the universe.

I respect that and that's not that far off from what I'm saying. I'm not saying "make a rule for everything," and "fitting in the universe" can describe what I'm saying about not conflicting past uses or opening plot holes.

 

[Shockmaster]

Speaking of Star Wars "rules", if the same rules from TLJ for bigger ships pursuing faster, lighter ships (despite there being zero gravity in space) applied for all other movies, wouldn't it have taken Vader a lot longer to catch up to Leia's ship in A New Hope?

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Speaking of Star Wars "rules", if the same rules from TLJ for bigger ships pursuing faster, lighter ships (despite there being zero gravity in space) applied for all other movies, wouldn't it have taken Vader a lot longer to catch up to Leia's ship in A New Hope?

I don't think the idea of certain bigger ships being slower than certain smaller ships is that far-fetched of a concept. Fighters are able to move much faster than large ships, so why not other ships of different sizes? The Millenium falcon is talked up by Han because of its speed, so those things are clearly relevant to the universe.

As far as ANH, maybe they were able to disable some part of their engines which affected their ability to fly, or maybe the ship isn't that particularly fast in comparison to a Star Destroyer. The main thing is that somehow Leia's ship was intercepted and boarded by the Vader's Star Destroyer. We don't even know how long they had been chasing her ship in the first place, and at some point it is clear they used a tractor beam on it to scoop it up more quickly.

 

[Osprey]

I don't think the idea of certain bigger ships being slower than certain smaller ships is that far-fetched of a concept. Fighters are able to move much faster than large ships, so why not other ships of different sizes? The Millenium falcon is talked up by Han because of its speed, so those things are clearly relevant to the universe.

As far as ANH, maybe they were able to disable some part of their engines which affected their ability to fly, or maybe the ship isn't that particularly fast in comparison to a Star Destroyer. The main thing is that somehow Leia's ship was intercepted and boarded by the Vader's Star Destroyer. We don't even know how long they had been chasing her ship in the first place, and at some point it is clear they used a tractor beam on it to scoop it up more quickly.

Even if their engines had been completely destroyed, they still would've maintained their speed, since there's no air resistance to slow them down. It's why the idea of the Resistance running out of fuel was dumb. You don't need engines or fuel in order to maintain your speed and trajectory in space.

Sometimes, it's probably better not to explain, since a dumb explanation is worse than none at all. As you suggested, we didn't really need to know why Vader's ship caught up to Leia's. It was enough that it did. Of course, Shockmaster has a point, also, that such things can become an issue in retrospect. Perhaps that's something that we can agree on: we don't need rules to define how or why big ships can or can't overtake smaller ones. They just create more problems than they solve.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Even if their engines had been completely destroyed, they still would've maintained their speed, since there's no air resistance to slow them down. It's why the idea of the Resistance running out of fuel was dumb. You don't need engines or fuel in order to maintain your speed and trajectory in space.

Considering Star Wars has never really seriously considered the nitty-gritty physics of space, AND fuel has been referenced multiple times prior to TLJ anyway, AND whenever we see any ship in space moving it is seemingly always using its thrusters, I don't see what the issue is. Space in Star Wars has always been more of a "this is a neat setting" than "we are going to write based on the actual physics of space as we know it." That's one of the reasons many people are not so quick to consider it "science fiction" as much as "science fantasy" (including George Lucas himself).

Also considering it is in a galaxy far, far away, maybe space works differently there.

 

[Osprey]

Considering Star Wars has never really seriously considered the nitty-gritty physics of space, AND fuel has been referenced multiple times prior to TLJ anyway, AND whenever we see any ship in space moving it is seemingly always using its thrusters, I don't see what the issue is. Space in Star Wars has always been more of a "this is a neat setting" than "we are going to write based on the actual physics of space as we know it." That's one of the reasons many people are not so quick to consider it "science fiction" as much as "science fantasy" (including George Lucas himself).

I largely agree with you and my issue is simply that they tried to explain it and made it a plot point. I added this to my above post and hoped that you wouldn't reply so soon.

 

[Shockmaster]

I don't think the idea of certain bigger ships being slower than certain smaller ships is that far-fetched of a concept. Fighters are able to move much faster than large ships, so why not other ships of different sizes?[b/] The Millenium falcon is talked up by Han because of its speed, so those things are clearly relevant to the universe.

As far as ANH, maybe they were able to disable some part of their engines which affected their ability to fly, or maybe the ship isn't that particularly fast in comparison to a Star Destroyer. The main thing is that somehow Leia's ship was intercepted and boarded by the Vader's Star Destroyer. We don't even know how long they had been chasing her ship in the first place, and at some point it is clear they used a tractor beam on it to scoop it up more quickly.

Not in zero gravity.

 

[ArGarBarGar]

Not in zero gravity.

I addressed this in my last post. Star Wars has never been devoted to scientific accuracy as it relates to our world, from the OT to the PT to the ST and everything in between.

 

[LeafsNation75]

Considering Star Wars has never really seriously considered the nitty-gritty physics of space, AND fuel has been referenced multiple times prior to TLJ anyway, AND whenever we see any ship in space moving it is seemingly always using its thrusters, I don't see what the issue is. Space in Star Wars has always been more of a "this is a neat setting" than "we are going to write based on the actual physics of space as we know it." That's one of the reasons many people are not so quick to consider it "science fiction" as much as "science fantasy" (including George Lucas himself).

Also considering it is in a galaxy far, far away, maybe space works differently there.

Maybe this isn't the same example but what about when we have seen characters go outside when they were in space, how come in Star Wars Rebels during the Season 3 finale Sabine was able to wear her Mandalorian helmet when she and Ezra destroyed that Interdictor.

 

[Pranzo Oltranzista]

Not in zero gravity.

It's not sci-fi, it's not a mimetic world model, so unless it was explained that our understanding of zero gravity is relevant to this world model, this has no value.

This thread really is something else...

 

[MadDevil]

Not everything needs a reasonable explanation in space fantasy.

 

[Osprey]

I'd like a reasonable explanation from J.J. Abrams for The Rise of Skywalker.